From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #338 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Thursday, June 22 2000 Volume 01 : Number 338 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles John Meister Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: Vacuum (long and detailed) - Short and nondetailed answer 82 300D Owners Manual Re: 82 300D Owners Manual Re: Convert '84 190d to Turbo Re: Convert '84 190d to Turbo RE: Convert '84 190d to Turbo Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:19:53 -0500 From: Alec Cordova Subject: RE: Vacuum (long and detailed) - Short and nondetailed answer Garth, You have definitely done your legwork trying to resolve this. I don't pretend to know much about the intricacies of the vacuum system. I'm also forwarding this to another diesel Benz list for input. Short answer: I have seen lots of recommendations on the lists to disable the EGR system. There may be legal implications if anyone can determine that you have done so, but the diesels apparently are happier without it. Since your current solution makes everything except the EGR work, I would say it sounds like a winner. Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE 85 300DT 97 Z3 1.9 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-mercedes-at-lists.realtime.net [mailto:owner-mercedes-at-lists.realtime.net] On Behalf Of Garthpost-at-aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 12:59 PM To: mercedes-at-lists.realtime.net Cc: diesel-at-mbz.org Subject: Vacuum (long and detailed) Dear List members and vacuum experts: I'd like to find some answers for a long running vacuum problem. Sorry for the length. I've had my '82 240D's vacuum lines deliberately hooked up incorrectly for the better part of two years, to achieve sufficient vacuum to operate the transmission. The correct hookup configuration yields no vacuum, and the car had this condition when I purchased it two years back. For test purposes, I tried the correct setup again last week, and reconfirmmed my original findings. With NO vacuum in the correct setup, the shifts are so violent the car feels dangerous to drive, burning rubber on every redline shift. My alteration, which disables the EGR system, allows for gentler, normally firm shifts, at the correct shift-points. I have exchanged the two lines on the left-hand side of the EGR switchover valve, to achieve excellent vacuum to the transmission. How bad is it for the engine to have no EGR? I have no clue as to how the correct setup could ever provide vacuum to the transmission. The EGR system holds as high a vacuum I can measure, so that is not the problem. The "additional" vacuum lines running engine-shutoff, door locks, etc., are just fine too. Everything in between seems to be in order, with fresh rubber connectors throughout the maze. I have familiarized myself with the individual functions of each separate vacuum line, and careful diagnostic vacuum testing of each line and component suggests everything should operate normally. A year and a half ago I tried new switchover valves, but they tested exactly the same as the existing valves, so I returned them. The brand of my hand-pump vacuum tester is Actron/II. My guess is it is much like the MityVac everyone else has. The gauge has both inch and millimeter scales. It reads up to 30 inches or 760 mm. With my finger sealing the test hose, I can pump up to 27 in./690 mm. This meets or exceeds the range of vacuum readings off my car. Below I will carefully outline the gist of my diagnostic testing as best I can. If anyone can offer insight as to what's right or wrong, my thanks to you in advance! I will borrow identification terminology from the Engine Service Manual vacuum diagram (Fig. 14) from the last section entitled: "Information for model year 1982 - Extract from introductory brochure, (section) 14: Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR). 1.) The EGR system, reading from connector #3 on the vacuum control unit: 25+ in./650+ mm., with no bleed-down. 2.) The "additional" vacuum lines (engine shutoff, door locks, etc.): 23.5 in./ 600 mm. 3.) The orifice to the "additional" lines (c), from the main vacuum line from the vacuum pump, with orifice # 62 plugged: a) Engine not running: 21 in./ 530 mm. b) Engine running at idle: 23 in./ 585 mm. c) Engine running fast: 23.5 in./ 600 mm. d) With "additional" lines connected, engine running at idle: 23 in./ 585 mm. e) With "additional" lines connected, engine running fast: 23 in./ 585 mm. 4.) Disconnecting the brake servo, reading from the vacuum pump with orifices (62) and (c) plugged: a) Engine not running: 24 in./ 610 mm. b) Engine running at idle: 23.5 in./ 600 mm.* c) Engine running fast: 23.5 in./ 600 mm.* *note: you must reconnect the brake servo and "additional" lines to shut off the engine! 5.) Reading line (b) from the transmission modulator: 24+ in./610+ mm., with no leakdown. 6.) From the vacuum though the switchover valve for the automatic transmission (64a), reading from the orifice which connects to line #5** (to the vacuum control valve), with the orifice to line #4 connected (as normal; this includes line (b) to the transmission, and the feed line from the vacuum pump, via orifice #62), the remaining orifice plugged (as normal), and line #1 plugged: a) Engine running at idle: 0 in./ 0 mm. b) Engine running fast: 23.5 in./ 600 mm.** **note: the vacuum control valve was not connected for this reading. 7.) Same as (6) above, but with line #1 correctly connected to the orifice closest to the cam on the switchover valve for the EGR (64): a) Engine running at idle: 0 in./ 0 mm. b) Engine running fast: 0 in./ 0 mm.***, ** ***note: this demonstrates there is no vacuum to the transmission at all, with the correct setup. 8.) Same as (6) above, but this time with line #1 incorrectly connected to the furthermost orifice from the cam on the switchover valve for the EGR (64) (which should be connected to the #2 line which vents in the passenger compartment), and, in exchange, with line #2 incorrectly connected to the orifice closest to the cam on the switchover valve for the EGR (64): a) Engine running at idle: 0 in./ 0mm. b) Engine running fast: 23.5 in./ 600 mm.****, ** ****note: this is the way I get a vacuum for the transmission, but it disables the EGR. 9.) Readings from the vacuum control valve (engine not running): a) directly from the top of the valve, with the throttle linkage detached: 16 in./ 410 mm. b) Directly from the top of the valve, throttle linkage attached: 13 in./ 330 mm. c) A more realistic reading, from the orifice for line #4 on switchover cam (64a), the throttle linkage attached, and a simulated light engine load on the cam: 12 in./ 300 mm. ***** *****note: This reading can be substituted for reading (8b) above for the actual maximum vacuum getting to the transmission modulator. Does anybody have a clue about what any of the above readings should be? Again, thanks in advance for any input. Is my vacuum pump, pumping enough? Are the two switchover valves really the culprit? Garth Herrick 1982 240D 181kmi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:39:21 -0700 From: Mark Fountain Subject: 82 300D Owners Manual I bought an 82 300D a few years ago but it didn't come with an owners manual. Before going the commercial route, I thought I'd check in with this list to see if anyone has any idea how I might obtain an owners manual / packet for that year / model. Perhaps someone might have a spare one lying around. Thanks, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 03:29:25 -0500 From: "Jon Filina" Subject: Re: 82 300D Owners Manual Mark got bored and asked: > I bought an 82 300D a few years ago but it didn't come with an owners > manual. Before going the commercial route, I thought I'd check in with > this list to see if anyone has any idea how I might obtain an owners > manual / packet for that year / model. Perhaps someone might have a > spare one lying around. Check with the dealer. I understand they are relatively cheap. As an alternative, find some local boneyards that stock MB's. You might get lucky and find one in a glove box! Jon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:38 -0500 From: "Jon Filina" Subject: Re: Convert '84 190d to Turbo Jayesh was on a qwest and asked: > I recently got my Dream Car an 84 190d it is so good > on gas(i mean Diesel) it is amazing.. but it lacks > power sometimes.. I was wondering if anyone out there > can can give me tips/information to convert my 190D to > Turbo Diesel. Unless I am suffering from complete senility, I have seen your message a few times before. It appears that you've had no answers, so I'll put in my 2 cents worth.... While you may be able to add a turbo to your MB, I'd advise against it. I can only speak for the W123 bodies, and not your W201's, but I don't see why there'd be much difference in the theory. All the W123's that came with turbos had components that the normally aspirated engines didn't. The extra stress the turbo put on the engine neccessitated these extras. Simply adding a turbo (new exhaust manifold, etc.) would probably work, but you'd most certainly be shortening the life of the engine. Your 190D is the first year for that body style. Depending on how diligent the PO was, save your money...you're gonna need it. Of all the reasons to buy a diesel, performance has to be the last. You'll get used to to the lack of performance and learn how to make the car keep up with traffic. I drove VW diesels, which are very much underpowered, until I got my 240D 2 1/2 years ago. The 240D is a speed demon by comparison. If you want some power, look for a late '80s 190D, 2.5(?) turbo. That beast is a hot rod! I chose my 240D over it mainly because it felt like a V6 powered gas car...tickets and all! I'm sorry the only response you've gotten may not be to your liking, but you'd be better off accepting the 190D as it is. Jon '81 240D 253560 mi. "Mathilde" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:26:26 -0400 From: "Scott Frary" Subject: Re: Convert '84 190d to Turbo From: "Jon Filina" To: "Jayesh Nayak" , Subject: Re: Convert '84 190d to Turbo Date sent: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:38 -0500 > Jayesh was on a qwest and asked: > > > I recently got my Dream Car an 84 190d it is so good > > on gas(i mean Diesel) it is amazing.. but it lacks > > power sometimes.. I was wondering if anyone out there > > can can give me tips/information to convert my 190D to > > Turbo Diesel. > > Unless I am suffering from complete senility, I have seen your message a few > times before. It appears that you've had no answers, so I'll put in my 2 > cents worth.... > > While you may be able to add a turbo to your MB, I'd advise against it. I > can only speak for the W123 bodies, and not your W201's, but I don't see why > there'd be much difference in the theory. > > All the W123's that came with turbos had components that the normally > aspirated engines didn't. The extra stress the turbo put on the engine > neccessitated these extras. Simply adding a turbo (new exhaust manifold, > etc.) would probably work, but you'd most certainly be shortening the life > of the engine. > > Your 190D is the first year for that body style. Depending on how diligent > the PO was, save your money...you're gonna need it. Of all the reasons to > buy a diesel, performance has to be the last. You'll get used to to the > lack of performance and learn how to make the car keep up with traffic. I > drove VW diesels, which are very much underpowered, until I got my 240D 2 > 1/2 years ago. The 240D is a speed demon by comparison. > > If you want some power, look for a late '80s 190D, 2.5(?) turbo. That beast > is a hot rod! I chose my 240D over it mainly because it felt like a V6 > powered gas car...tickets and all! > > I'm sorry the only response you've gotten may not be to your liking, but > you'd be better off accepting the 190D as it is. > > Jon > '81 240D 253560 mi. "Mathilde" I agree, one should Take his money and purchase an already turbo charged Merceedes. They are readily available and reasonably priced. HOWEVER- don't underestimate the ruggedness of the normaly aspirated 4 and 5 cyl. Mercedes diesels. At a club tech. session I talked to a man who added a 5 cylinders turbo charger to his 240D which had the manual tranny. He had his car displayed. He used all MD parts and it looked like a factory install. He offered the setup in kit form for sale. Most all agree that any Mercedes diesel was hardy enough to withstand a turbo, provided you don't run it with some outrageous amount of boost! The owner claimed it was a VERY spirited setup that with performance that shocked most people! :-) Sometimes people want what the factory didn't provide. You could contact Atlanta Stuttgart Auto Parts for more info as I remember he was a friend of the owner. They also have a web site, good palce for used parts. In talking Scott Frary Athens, GA Former Peachtree section member - MBCA 1978 300D 1979 300D 1979 240D(parts) 1980 300TD Not a turbo one in the fleet and no complaints, just pure normally aspirated 5 cyl. power! :-0 > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:09:08 -0400 From: "Chris Straut" Subject: RE: Convert '84 190d to Turbo Just to add my two cents... I have an '85 300D (that's a 3.0L 5cyl turbo diesel) whose turbocharger stopped working temporarily after I had washed underneath the hood. Apparently, something had gotten wet that shouldn't have and needed time to dry out, as it started working mysteriously about three days and 50 miles later. Anyhow, the difference between no turbo and turbo was like night and day. The car's acceleration is at least acceptable (and sometimes suprising)with the turbo working properly, but without the turbo the car's performance was disappointing to say the least. Getting up to highway speed at onramps was a chore without the turbo. The car would drop to 65mph when going up large hills on the interstate, whereas with turbo it can easily cruise at 80 and beyond. If you determine that your car can be converted to turbo (or you get a turbo model) you'll definitely appreciate the extra performance you'll get out of the MB diesel. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Scott Frary Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 10:26 AM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: Convert '84 190d to Turbo From: "Jon Filina" To: "Jayesh Nayak" , Subject: Re: Convert '84 190d to Turbo Date sent: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:00:38 -0500 > Jayesh was on a qwest and asked: > > > I recently got my Dream Car an 84 190d it is so good > > on gas(i mean Diesel) it is amazing.. but it lacks > > power sometimes.. I was wondering if anyone out there > > can can give me tips/information to convert my 190D to > > Turbo Diesel. > > Unless I am suffering from complete senility, I have seen your message a few > times before. It appears that you've had no answers, so I'll put in my 2 > cents worth.... > > While you may be able to add a turbo to your MB, I'd advise against it. I > can only speak for the W123 bodies, and not your W201's, but I don't see why > there'd be much difference in the theory. > > All the W123's that came with turbos had components that the normally > aspirated engines didn't. The extra stress the turbo put on the engine > neccessitated these extras. Simply adding a turbo (new exhaust manifold, > etc.) would probably work, but you'd most certainly be shortening the life > of the engine. > > Your 190D is the first year for that body style. Depending on how diligent > the PO was, save your money...you're gonna need it. Of all the reasons to > buy a diesel, performance has to be the last. You'll get used to to the > lack of performance and learn how to make the car keep up with traffic. I > drove VW diesels, which are very much underpowered, until I got my 240D 2 > 1/2 years ago. The 240D is a speed demon by comparison. > > If you want some power, look for a late '80s 190D, 2.5(?) turbo. That beast > is a hot rod! I chose my 240D over it mainly because it felt like a V6 > powered gas car...tickets and all! > > I'm sorry the only response you've gotten may not be to your liking, but > you'd be better off accepting the 190D as it is. > > Jon > '81 240D 253560 mi. "Mathilde" I agree, one should Take his money and purchase an already turbo charged Merceedes. They are readily available and reasonably priced. HOWEVER- don't underestimate the ruggedness of the normaly aspirated 4 and 5 cyl. Mercedes diesels. At a club tech. session I talked to a man who added a 5 cylinders turbo charger to his 240D which had the manual tranny. He had his car displayed. He used all MD parts and it looked like a factory install. He offered the setup in kit form for sale. Most all agree that any Mercedes diesel was hardy enough to withstand a turbo, provided you don't run it with some outrageous amount of boost! The owner claimed it was a VERY spirited setup that with performance that shocked most people! :-) Sometimes people want what the factory didn't provide. You could contact Atlanta Stuttgart Auto Parts for more info as I remember he was a friend of the owner. They also have a web site, good palce for used parts. In talking Scott Frary Athens, GA Former Peachtree section member - MBCA 1978 300D 1979 300D 1979 240D(parts) 1980 300TD Not a turbo one in the fleet and no complaints, just pure normally aspirated 5 cyl. power! :-0 > ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #338 *********************************