From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #412 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, October 11 2000 Volume 01 : Number 412 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles John Meister Digest Coordinator Contents: opinions on 90-93 300SL? RE: W140 Series Source of Juice, '75 115D Engine running after key is removed RE: Engine running after key is removed RE: Engine running after key is removed Re: Engine running after key is removed Re: Engine running after key is removed RE: Engine running after key is removed vacuum tester Re: vacuum tester engine shut-off vacuum problems Re: Engine running after key is removed Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 06:32:20 -0700 From: Alec.Cordova-at-quintus.com Subject: opinions on 90-93 300SL? Good morning, all. Well, last Friday, my wife's 97 Z3 apparently decided it had had enough, and it conspired with a puddle to lose control. Wife is fine, car is not. Waiting for insurance adjuster to confirm that it's totaled, and to find out just how much money we'll get from them. Result: Hey kids. Do you know what time it is? It's CAR SHOPPING TIME! She dearly loved her little BMW, even with just the 4-banger 1.9. We started looking and driving Saturday, and were quite disappointed with the feel of a 98 Z3 2.3. Also checked out 328is convertible, XJS convertible, SLK 230 (nice, but too expensive), trying to find something that can put up with her hard driving, provide that nice heavy German feel, and not break the bank. She drove a 1990 300SL yesterday, and was pleased with it. (Atta girl! Get rid of those silly beemers, and come back to REAL cars!) I, of course, checked edmunds.com for pricing, and discovered that we may actually be able to swing a 1990 through 1993 model, if we can find the right deal. So, I'm looking for opinions on the early R129 300SL. I have an 89 300CE, so I'm familiar with the motor, up until 93 or so, when they went to the twin cam. Anything in particular to look out for? Should we avoid 1990 models, since that was the first year? And most importantly, how nice is the manual transmission? She prefers a stick. I told her that we listers will occasionally wax poetic about various parts of our cars, but I don't remember anyone glowing about their manual transmission, other than those who have transplanted a stick into an older diesel. Any and all help appreciated, as always. Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE 85 300DT 97 Z3 1.9 (just waiting for USAA to stick a fork in it, 'cuz it's done) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:08:15 -0600 From: John Bathory Subject: RE: W140 Series I would be real leary buying a new passat. I made that mistake 3 years ago, the stupid car went through 3 sets of ball joints, one instrument cluster, cooling fan and 3 batteries it has less than 30,000 miles on it and costs me way more than the mercedes 123. Want to buy a VR6.... :) - -----Original Message----- From: B. K. Darnell [mailto:briand-at-gasullivan.com] Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 8:19 PM To: Alec Cordova; Dan Jacobs; john; Diesel-Benz List Subject: W140 Series Alright, guys! I need some serious advice. As you know, I have one of the 3.5 litre engines in my 93 300 SD. I found a 93 400SEL today. It looks just like my SD, except that it is gasoline and it has only 55K miles. I also noticed that their is no badging ("400SEL")/ nomenclature on the trunk lid. Obviously, it appears that it has been painted. All that aside, have you W-140 Series owners been satisfied with your cars. If I can get rid of the diesel, do you believe that the W-140 is a noteworthy car? Or do I just need to buy a new Passat and be done with this expensive German mystique. I've REALLY had all that I can afford! Brian - ----- Original Message ----- From: Alec Cordova To: Dan Jacobs ; john ; Diesel-Benz List Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 9:45 AM Subject: RE: H4 headlamps > I don't think it's the bulb itself that provides that lighting pattern. I > believe it's the reflector and lens that do it. > But yes, that's exactly what these lights will give you. I've seen it > referred to as a European lighting pattern. > Once you experience it, you'll understand why European cars have headlight > aim adjusters inside. Changing loads in the back of the car would definitely > require adjusting the lights with their distinct cutoff. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Jacobs [mailto:kc7nol-at-juno.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 3:05 PM > To: john; Alec Cordova; Diesel-Benz List > Subject: RE: H4 headlamps > > Are the H4 lamps the ones that have a beam that is very flat and then > towards the right angles up to illuminate roadside signs and critters and > stuff like that? > > Dopey Dan > Vancouver, USA > (Vancouver was here b4 Portland was!) > > ------Original Message------ > From: "john" > To: Alec Cordova , Diesel-Benz List > > Sent: September 12, 2000 2:19:15 AM GMT > Subject: RE: Foglight Pull-out, W123 > > > If I can't get IPFs in the next couple of days I'll get a quote from him > on Hella's. :) The H4 lamps are so much nicer... :) > > john > > ------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Alec Cordova > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 7:19 PM > To: john; Diesel-Benz List > Subject: RE: Foglight Pull-out, W123 > > > Not sure if he carries IPF. Good question, though. > I think the ones he sent me were Hella's, or they may have been Cibie's. > Been a little while. Probably Hella's. Glorious lighting, regardless of the > brand name. > > Alec > > -----Original Message----- > > rusty's got IPF? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 9:39:12 -0700 From: " " Subject: Source of Juice, '75 115D Hey, guys, missed me? I have had the diesel ('75 300D) running on its own for a week or two now-driving it like crazy, cheering to myself every time it starts on its own (which has been about 95% of the time) and loving that it stops on its own (which it stopped again, and after removing instrument cluster, I found I had "weaved" the vacuum line in poorly and it was under pressure from the speedo cable when the cluster went back in. Moved it so it went around the cable in a different manner and it has stayed on since! However, it has started to not always start again. I had found that when it wouldn't start before, if I jiggled the wire that ran from the large "plug" type of thing in the block to the terminal of the first (front-most) glow plug, I could hear a popping noise, sometimes actually see a very small spark, and immediately the leads from plug one to plug two would start to glow a bit. The thing would always fire right up at this point. Thus, I figured this was the problem. This was also the wire that I had noticed that some of the insulation was worn off on and seemed to smoke off some of the dirt when I first got it going. Once I had this in the right "position" it needed no further "wiggling" for the last week or two. Well, in the past few days the car has ceased to start all the time, and when I get out and try this "repositioning" maneuver, I get no "pop," "spark," or glowing. I am seeking the name for this piece/device so that I may replace it. A further description is that it is a large round or six-sided (as in for a large wrench) apparently metal plug that goes into the block just below and to the rear of the first plug (I think-this is all from memory at the moment). It has a smaller, apparently plastic or rubber little fitting/plug that goes into it, and the wire that goes to the first glow plug comes out of this smaller piece. I have not yet ascertained if this smaller plastic piece is removable, as I don't want to try unscrewing something that doesn't screw in the first place and break it. Does anyone understand enough from this description to be able to name the part(s) I am looking for? Any advice on this problem other than to change these parts? Thanks! Any help on this is greatly appreciated! - --- J. Michael Shaw, II ... Alameda, CA - --- docmikeii-at-earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:24:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin McBriarty Subject: Engine running after key is removed Hello all, I just recently purchased my first Benz, an '82 300TD. I've noticed a few times that when I have the car running for a while and I go to turn the engine off, it still runs for a little while before it slowly comes to a stop. Is this normal for a diesel engine? I've noticed in the manual that if the engine doesn't turn off to push the STOP button under the hood. I've had it run for about 20 seconds until the engine stopped once after I removed the key from the ignition. Is this normal? And if not, what would I need to have fixed/adjusted. Thanks. Kevin Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:51:11 -0700 From: Alec.Cordova-at-quintus.com Subject: RE: Engine running after key is removed Welcome to Mercedes diesels! All sorts of systems on your car are partially or fully controlled by vacuum. That's why the door locks don't SNAP up and down like most cars. Since a diesel doesn't use spark plugs to keep running, cutting off the electrical supply, which works for gasoline engines, won't stop a diesel with mechanical fuel injection. There is a vacuum-controlled system to stop the fuel. You have a leak somewhere in your vacuum system. Try the easy stuff first. Look all around under the hood for disconnected or cracked vacuum lines. They're generally pretty thin plastic or rubber, and they go all over the place in there. Also, the door locks use two sets of vacuum lines. One set for locking, one for unlocking. Try stopping the engine with the doors locked and with the doors unlocked, and see if there is a difference. Main visible symptoms of vacuum leaks: Engine not shutting off promptly (within one second); door locks not working in one or both directions; rough and/or early shifts from the automatic transmission; refusal to downshift when you stomp the pedal. You may have these problems, and the root cause is closely related to your engine shutoff problems. Solving your vacuum problems will very likely solve any of these problems, too. If you can find the bad vacuum line, you could plug it temporarily with a golf tee, until you can get more hose or replace the joints (cheap enough at the dealer). Good luck, Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE 85 300DT 97 Z3 1.9 (until the insurance company pays it off) -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Kevin McBriarty Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 4:25 PM To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: Engine running after key is removed Hello all, I just recently purchased my first Benz, an '82 300TD. I've noticed a few times that when I have the car running for a while and I go to turn the engine off, it still runs for a little while before it slowly comes to a stop. Is this normal for a diesel engine? I've noticed in the manual that if the engine doesn't turn off to push the STOP button under the hood. I've had it run for about 20 seconds until the engine stopped once after I removed the key from the ignition. Is this normal? And if not, what would I need to have fixed/adjusted. Thanks. Kevin Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:8:54 -0700 From: " " Subject: RE: Engine running after key is removed > Hello all, > > I just recently purchased my first Benz, an '82 300TD. > I've noticed a few times that when I have the car > running for a while and I go to turn the engine off, > it still runs for a little while before it slowly > comes to a stop. Is this normal for a diesel engine? > I've noticed in the manual that if the engine doesn't > turn off to push the STOP button under the hood. I've > had it run for about 20 seconds until the engine > stopped once after I removed the key from the > ignition. Is this normal? And if not, what would I > need to have fixed/adjusted. Thanks. > > Kevin Kevin- I asked the list this a few weeks back, and don't recall getting an answer, so I will ask again while people are thinking of it. How long should it take a healthy diesel to stop after the key is turned off? I know it is "starving" the engine of fuel, so it has to take longer than the electrical system in an internal combustion engine of the electric ignition type, but don't know what range of time is good and what time is something that should be investigated. - --- J. Michael Shaw, II ... Alameda, CA - --- docmikeii-at-earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:33:46 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: Engine running after key is removed you have a vacuum leak. when you shut the key off it disables the fuel solenoid/mechanism via vaccum to shut the engine off. If there is a leak in the system it can't shut it down. the joys of a Mercedes Benz vacuum system... especially after years of hackery by lame brain mechanics... john At 02:24 PM 10/10/00 -0700, Kevin McBriarty wrote: >Hello all, > >I just recently purchased my first Benz, an '82 300TD. >I've noticed a few times that when I have the car >running for a while and I go to turn the engine off, >it still runs for a little while before it slowly >comes to a stop. Is this normal for a diesel engine? >I've noticed in the manual that if the engine doesn't >turn off to push the STOP button under the hood. I've >had it run for about 20 seconds until the engine >stopped once after I removed the key from the >ignition. Is this normal? And if not, what would I >need to have fixed/adjusted. Thanks. > >Kevin >Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! >http://mail.yahoo.com/ - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ "The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." ---Herbert Sebastian Agar Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:35:19 -0500 From: Jim & Barb Hoffman Subject: Re: Engine running after key is removed Hey Alec! Thanks for the GREAT info. I didn't realize that the shutoff was vacuum controlled. My door locks only work in the lock direction. When I un- lock the car I have to start the engine and wait about 15-20 seconds and then I can watch all the cute little buttons rise in unison! I've only had the engine "run on" a few times. And the door locks were up in all instances. One time I went to my kid's school and tried to shut it off and it wouldn't stop so I just left it run and went inside. When I realized I was going to be a while I went back out and thought I'd use the "stop" lever under the hood but it shut down just fine. ??? GO figure ;) I guess right after I disassemble the fuse block to fix that problem I'll go on a vacuum leak quest ;) Thanks again!! Jim/ '83 240D Alec.Cordova-at-quintus.com wrote: > Welcome to Mercedes diesels! > > All sorts of systems on your car are partially or fully controlled by > vacuum. That's why the door locks don't SNAP up and down like most cars. > > Since a diesel doesn't use spark plugs to keep running, cutting off the > electrical supply, which works for gasoline engines, won't stop a diesel > with mechanical fuel injection. There is a vacuum-controlled system to stop > the fuel. > > You have a leak somewhere in your vacuum system. Try the easy stuff first. > Look all around under the hood for disconnected or cracked vacuum lines. > They're generally pretty thin plastic or rubber, and they go all over the > place in there. > > Also, the door locks use two sets of vacuum lines. One set for locking, one > for unlocking. Try stopping the engine with the doors locked and with the > doors unlocked, and see if there is a difference. > > Main visible symptoms of vacuum leaks: Engine not shutting off promptly > (within one second); door locks not working in one or both directions; rough > and/or early shifts from the automatic transmission; refusal to downshift > when you stomp the pedal. You may have these problems, and the root cause is > closely related to your engine shutoff problems. Solving your vacuum > problems will very likely solve any of these problems, too. > > If you can find the bad vacuum line, you could plug it temporarily with a > golf tee, until you can get more hose or replace the joints (cheap enough at > the dealer). > > Good luck, > Alec Cordova > Taylor, Texas > 89 300CE 85 300DT 97 Z3 1.9 (until the insurance company pays it off) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] > On Behalf Of Kevin McBriarty > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 4:25 PM > To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net > Subject: Engine running after key is removed > > Hello all, > > I just recently purchased my first Benz, an '82 300TD. > I've noticed a few times that when I have the car > running for a while and I go to turn the engine off, > it still runs for a little while before it slowly > comes to a stop. Is this normal for a diesel engine? > I've noticed in the manual that if the engine doesn't > turn off to push the STOP button under the hood. I've > had it run for about 20 seconds until the engine > stopped once after I removed the key from the > ignition. Is this normal? And if not, what would I > need to have fixed/adjusted. Thanks. > > Kevin > Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:38:24 -0700 From: john Subject: RE: Engine running after key is removed because the fuel system should be very tight, once that solenoid is released, it should stop immediately. The problem is with the Benz system is that it slowly shuts the flow off. On a 3.0L when the vacuum system is reasonably tight it's almost instaneous... On other makes of Diesels that use an electric solenoid as soon as that voltage drops below 9v's, bang, it's off. :) john At 03:08 PM 10/10/00 -0700, wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > I just recently purchased my first Benz, an '82 300TD. > > I've noticed a few times that when I have the car > > running for a while and I go to turn the engine off, > > it still runs for a little while before it slowly > > comes to a stop. Is this normal for a diesel engine? > > I've noticed in the manual that if the engine doesn't > > turn off to push the STOP button under the hood. I've > > had it run for about 20 seconds until the engine > > stopped once after I removed the key from the > > ignition. Is this normal? And if not, what would I > > need to have fixed/adjusted. Thanks. > > > > Kevin > >Kevin- > >I asked the list this a few weeks back, and don't recall getting an answer, >so I will ask again while people are thinking of it. > >How long should it take a healthy diesel to stop after the key is turned >off? I know it is "starving" the engine of fuel, so it has to take longer >than the electrical system in an internal combustion engine of the electric >ignition type, but don't know what range of time is good and what time is >something that should be investigated. > >--- J. Michael Shaw, II >... Alameda, CA >--- docmikeii-at-earthlink.net - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ "The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." ---Herbert Sebastian Agar Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:41:49 -0700 From: john Subject: vacuum tester the mighty vac vacuum tester kit should be issued with these mercedes Diesels... I still don't have one, but knock on wood (see john hitting self in head), my vacuum system is currently fine. :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ "The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." ---Herbert Sebastian Agar Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:57:30 -0400 From: "S.D.Byers" Subject: Re: vacuum tester Sears sell a litlle vacuum pump thingy that has a gauge on it. You can make a little vacuum brake bleeder out it (the original reason I have one), but you can hook it up to the vacuum system via some form of adaptor bush and measure the vacuum. I used it to trouble shoot the vacuum system all the way from pump to servo and to kill switch on my 300D (engine). SDB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:25:53 EDT From: "Steve Morelen" Subject: engine shut-off vacuum problems Hello Folks- I've had two separate shut-off problems on my '84 300D: 1) Engine shut-off behavior grew progressively slower day by day. The problem was a leaking diaphragm on the shut-off vacuum actuator that is mounted on the fuel injection pump. This failure can turn into a mess because engine lube oil that is in the injection pump can be drawn through the leaking diaphragm and into the vacuum system. All other vacuum controlled accessories on the car were working OK. 2) Engine shut-off was dysfunctional only when the cabin door locks were set to "unlocked" position. Engine shut-off functioned OK when doors were in "locked" position. Fault was traced to leaking diaphragm on "unlock side" of door lock actuator. The "lock" and "unlock" vacuum circuits are separate so one can be leaking while the other is functioning normally. Hope this helps in troubleshooting.... Steve Morelen _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 12:44:03 EDT From: "John Heflin" Subject: Re: Engine running after key is removed Hi Jim and hello to the list, I'm new to it as I just stumbled it across it the other day when looking on ebay for a 300SD(L) and came across John's page. anyways, I seem to be having the same problem on my 240, although not with the engine, the rear driver side door tends to emit a squeal about a minute after the doors are locked with the engine running, but now the rear door locks seem to work when they want to. Is there any key points to check the vacuum lines (so I dont have to tear up the whole interior tracking the problem down). On the other hand it's a nice game to play, locking the car and 'giving encouragement' to those lagging locks to go down! Jim, look on the bright side to your problem with the run-on. Will this cold weather coming in, you dont have to plug the car in overnight, it will be all warmed up and running in the morning! John Heflin '78 240D Damascus, Md >From: Jim & Barb Hoffman >To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >Subject: Re: Engine running after key is removed >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:35:19 -0500 > >Hey Alec! > > Thanks for the GREAT info. I didn't realize that the shutoff was vacuum >controlled. My door locks only work in the lock direction. When I un- >lock the car I have to start the engine and wait about 15-20 seconds and >then I can watch all the cute little buttons rise in unison! I've only had >the >engine "run on" a few times. And the door locks were up in all instances. >One time I went to my kid's school and tried to shut it off and it wouldn't >stop so I just left it run and went inside. When I realized I was going to >be a while I went back out and thought I'd use the "stop" lever under the >hood but it shut down just fine. ??? GO figure ;) I guess right after >I >disassemble the fuse block to fix that problem I'll go on a vacuum leak >quest ;) > >Thanks again!! > >Jim/ >'83 240D > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #412 *********************************