From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #466 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Thursday, January 4 2001 Volume 01 : Number 466 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles John Meister Digest Coordinator Contents: Format Apology Re: Format Apology Re: misc fuel stuff Re: Winter Starting Re: Winter Starting Re: Winter Starting Re: Winter Starting 0-W30 synthetic oil 0w-30w Re: misc fuel stuff oil drains Re: misc fuel stuff Re: misc fuel stuff Re: misc fuel stuff Re: misc fuel stuff Re: misc fuel stuff RE: Oil Drains Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:38:27 -0500 From: Jeffrey Creager Subject: Format Apology Sorry about the formatting in the previous message. It doesn't appear anything like it did in my Navigator composition page. Perhaps someone can help? I've tried using Texedit to strip out extraneous symbols, control characters, "stupify quotes", etc. And although my outgoing message looks fine in Navigator's message composition page, it looks horrible when it comes back through the server. I've got Navigator's mail composition set to a line length of 72 characters, yet some of these line seem much shorter. This must be something simple. What am I doing wrong? Thanks - -jac ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 08:41:57 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: Format Apology send in plain text only. you can set almost every email program known to man to send it. by golly, even microsoft gave us that option! :) actually majordumbo automatically strips formatting and blocks html... I'm usually reading email during the day in a Unix shell, html, rtf and all that funky, fancy stuff wastes bandwidth and is hard to read in vi. :) john At 09:38 AM 1/3/01 -0500, Jeffrey Creager wrote: >Sorry about the formatting in the previous message. It doesn't appear >anything like it did in my Navigator composition page. Perhaps someone >can help? > >I've tried using Texedit to strip out extraneous symbols, control >characters, "stupify quotes", etc. And although my outgoing message >looks fine in Navigator's message composition page, it looks horrible >when it comes back through the server. I've got Navigator's mail >composition set to a line length of 72 characters, yet some of these >line seem much shorter. > >This must be something simple. What am I doing wrong? > >Thanks > >-jac - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.wagoneers.com/UNIX/ http://wagoneers.com/UNIX/Courses.html http://wagoneers.com/pages/ComputerSurvival-101.html UNIX is user-friendly; it's just picky about who its friends are. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.freegift.net/ http://www.wagoneers.com/ - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 08:45:39 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: misc fuel stuff At 01:05 AM 1/3/01 -0500, you wrote: >so how much is good in the winter? average temp here is about 15-25F I'll defer that to Diesel Dan south of me... ;) Out here all I can get is Diesel #2. :) If we have a cold snap I'll typically add ONE gallon of gasoline to about 20 gallons of Diesel. Not sure how much kerosene to mix in... I also use Amsoil's Diesel Fuel Modifier and Cetane boost, the spec sheets are on my site... it doesn't get cold enough here for me to worry about it... sorry... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:05:29 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Youngquist Subject: Re: Winter Starting On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Jeffrey Creager wrote: > Here's what has helped the MOST, though: using Mobil-1 0w-30w. Are you sure such a thin oil is OK for your engine? I've always figured that just because a real thin oil is diesel rated, doesn't mean it's thick enough to adequately protect a diesel engine, even if it's a good quality synthetic. I know a guy who runs Amsoil 5w-30 in his Dodge Cummins diesel. Haven't talked to him in a year or so, but I've been thinking of calling & asking how his oil analyses are looking. I emailed Amsoil tech dept. asking if the 5w-30 was OK for my GM & Ford diesels. They said sure, it'll work fine, but when I pressed for more details about adequate film strength, etc., they stopped responding. That isn't conclusive, to be sure, but it certainly didn't inspire confidence. Dan Youngquist Homestead Products Grain mills, water filters, lanterns, simple living & outdoors items http://www.teleport.com/~dany tel# 208-926-7137 / fax# 208-926-7139 / dany-at-teleport.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:32:28 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: Winter Starting the straight amsoil 30w is good for something like -55, I use the 15w40 year round... but the coldest it's ever gotten around here is about 15 degrees... and then I'll probably be driving my jeep. :) the thinner weight of the oil on the low number is not a problem if the oil is fresh or synthethic. The additive package is what usually gets the lower number, I think... the base oil is probably 30w and the VI improvers lower it's pour point, or I have it backwards... also, isn't mobil1 synthetic? that means it's probably ok, IF it's rated appropriately with a C (compression) rating... CE or CF. john On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Dan Youngquist wrote: >-->On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Jeffrey Creager wrote: >--> >-->> Here's what has helped the MOST, though: using Mobil-1 0w-30w. >--> >-->Are you sure such a thin oil is OK for your engine? I've always figured >-->that just because a real thin oil is diesel rated, doesn't mean it's >-->thick enough to adequately protect a diesel engine, even if it's a good >-->quality synthetic. >--> >-->I know a guy who runs Amsoil 5w-30 in his Dodge Cummins diesel. Haven't >-->talked to him in a year or so, but I've been thinking of calling & >-->asking how his oil analyses are looking. >--> >-->I emailed Amsoil tech dept. asking if the 5w-30 was OK for my GM & Ford >-->diesels. They said sure, it'll work fine, but when I pressed for more >-->details about adequate film strength, etc., they stopped responding. >-->That isn't conclusive, to be sure, but it certainly didn't inspire >-->confidence. >--> >-->Dan Youngquist >-->Homestead Products >-->Grain mills, water filters, lanterns, simple living & outdoors items >-->http://www.teleport.com/~dany >-->tel# 208-926-7137 / fax# 208-926-7139 / dany-at-teleport.com >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 14:44:58 -0800 From: Michael Frank Subject: Re: Winter Starting I use Mobil 1 full synthetic 5W-30 in my Diesel, but only during the coldest months. The car starts like a jackrabbit with this stuff, and I never use a block heater. I have experimented with running twice as far on one change, but the oil analysis basically shows that twice the mileage results in twice the wear. What really seams to hurt is the prodigious amount of blowby junk that accumulates in the oil...there is so much soot, that after 6000 miles, the oil is like soup. Using 30W is fine, as long as you change the oil at normal (ie 2500-3000mi) intervals. Mike Frank 1969 300CD At 11:32 AM 1/3/01 -0800, john wrote: >the straight amsoil 30w is good for something like -55, I use >the 15w40 year round... but the coldest it's ever gotten around >here is about 15 degrees... and then I'll probably be driving my jeep. :) > > >the thinner weight of the oil on the low number is not a problem if the >oil is fresh or synthethic. The additive package is what usually gets the >lower number, I think... the base oil is probably 30w and the VI improvers >lower it's pour point, or I have it backwards... > >also, isn't mobil1 synthetic? that means it's probably ok, IF it's rated >appropriately with a C (compression) rating... CE or CF. > >john > >On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Dan Youngquist wrote: > > >-->On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Jeffrey Creager wrote: > >--> > >-->> Here's what has helped the MOST, though: using Mobil-1 0w-30w. > >--> > >-->Are you sure such a thin oil is OK for your engine? I've always figured > >-->that just because a real thin oil is diesel rated, doesn't mean it's > >-->thick enough to adequately protect a diesel engine, even if it's a good > >-->quality synthetic. > >--> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:32:30 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Youngquist Subject: Re: Winter Starting On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, john wrote: > the thinner weight of the oil on the low number is not a problem if > the oil is fresh or synthethic. The additive package is what usually > gets the lower number, I think... the base oil is probably 30w and > the VI improvers lower it's pour point, or I have it backwards... You're right, you've got it backwards. :) The low number is the base stock, and viscosity improvers make it thicker when it gets warm. > also, isn't mobil1 synthetic? that means it's probably ok, IF it's > rated appropriately with a C (compression) rating... CE or CF. Yes, it's synthetic. But you still need a certain amount of lubrication & cushioning in your bearings etc., and an oil that's too thin won't have as much, even if it's synthetic. Whether it lubricates well enough is a different question, but I guess I'd rather my engines not be the guinea pigs. :) Dan Youngquist Homestead Products Grain mills, water filters, lanterns, simple living & outdoors items http://www.teleport.com/~dany tel# 208-926-7137 / fax# 208-926-7139 / dany-at-teleport.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:29:58 -0600 From: "Randolph A Bennell" Subject: 0-W30 synthetic oil One has to wonder how well 0 weight oil protects bearings. The trade off may be that thicker oil may not get to the bearings. This stuff must be about like diesel fuel at low temperatures. The first few minutes of cranking and start up must be somewhat risky for the main and crank bearings especially. Wouldn't one be better off to use a heavier oil and a block heater to warm it so that one could get started? Randy in cold Winnipeg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 20:53:13 -0500 From: Jeffrey Creager Subject: 0w-30w Yeah, 0w-30w is a little scary, as what pours out of the can reminds one of water. But, I figure that since the petroleum engineers insist it's O.K., and since the car seems much happier at the low temperatures with it, I'll give it a try. There's certainly much less wear on the starter. The stiffness of a cold engine is due, in some sense, to lack of lubrication. Supposedly, you can use this stuff in much warmer weather. There must be more to lubrication than thickness as the metal vs. metal protection occurs at molecular scales. Yet, it also makes intuitive sense that there's some benefit to thickness. In the summer, I use 15w-50w. In the fall and spring, 10w-30w. The Mercedes Formula One engines use Mobil-1. It would be interesting to know the viscosity. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:14:38 -0500 From: "Steve Morelen" Subject: Re: misc fuel stuff On my W123 body, the strainer is accessible from below the car and is located immediately above the CV joint on the right-hand (passenger)side of the differential. The hex fitting on the strainer looks like it might be 1.5 inches across the flats...I think I used a pair of channel-lock pliers to remove the thing...even though I normally shudder at the thought of using pliers on a fastener of any sort. The strainer-to-tank joint is made liquid tight by a metal sealing ring. I strongly recommend removing as much fuel as is humanly possible and then maybe even tipping the vehicle slightly so that the strainer area is not sitting in fuel when you remove it. If fuel does run out, some of it will try to go between the tank and the inside surface of the body (there is a rubber gasket between the tank and the body). If fuel does manage to wick itself into the interior of the car you might have to live with a diesel odor in the cabin. Have fun... Steve Morelen >From: john >To: "Steve Morelen" >CC: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >Subject: Re: misc fuel stuff >Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 20:43:26 -0800 > >At 10:31 PM 1/2/01 -0500, Steve Morelen wrote: >>Hello All: >>fitting is first removed from the strainer assy. If memory serves, the >>hex fitting on the strainer was pretty big. > >is it underneath the car or does one have to pull the backseat out? > >getting underneath a 300SD is far more work then getting under my J10. :) >I don't even jack up my J10 or little wagoneer to work underneath it. :) > >Unrelated item....what happens if 1K kerosene is used as fuel in a diesel >engine? Somebody asked me the other day is they could do this with their >Kubota tractor. D > >Not a problem, just a little less power is all, unlikely you'll notice the >difference. > >john >------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >------------------------------------------------------- > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 20:22:12 -0800 From: john Subject: oil drains >paraffin-based oil. Some of the synthetics claim longevity to more than 10K >miles, but I would be wary of this with an older engine...especially one >that is used in environments that an FSJ will most likely see. Even if an >oil could last this long without losing viscosity, the oil filter will >eventually become clogged with all sorts of various crap that can rerduce >the effectiveness of the lubrication system. This doesn't even account for >the chemical changes that an oil undergoes during its lifetime. An engine, >by its very nature, is a big chemical reaction vessel and it creates some all this is true. that's why amsoil, with their 25,000 mile oil change for gas engines, says to change the oil filter at 6 months or 12,500 miles, or more often under severe conditions. they used to claim 15,000 miles for Diesels, but in both cases encourage oil analysis. personally I've never run my oil that long. :) I've tried, but something goes amok and I have to change it. I'd say it's a safe bet for normal driving that allows the oil to get fully up to temperature and all that, to go about 1/2 what they claim, or maybe 12,000 miles... I'm more comfortable with 7 or 8 thousand on my gas engines and about 4,000 on my Diesels. If I ever get a new rebuilt engine or a new vehicle, after I break it in properly I might try to go the distance, using oil analysis of course. :) I think the biggest benefit, in my mind, is knowing that the oil in the crankcase COULD go 25,000 miles, so when I change it at 5 or 6 or even 8,000 miles I'm reasonably confident that I haven't done a bad thing, especially if I've remembered to change the filters... ;) so for me and my house, amsoil synthetic with it's extended drain capability gives me a margin of safety due to my forgetfulness/busyness/neglect... :) as always, YMMV. ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:10:01 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: misc fuel stuff At 09:14 PM 1/3/01 -0500, Steve Morelen wrote: >On my W123 body, the strainer is accessible from below the car and is >located immediately above the CV joint on the right-hand (passenger)side >of the differential. The hex fitting on the strainer looks like it might >be 1.5 inches across the flats...I think I used a pair of channel-lock >pliers to remove the thing...even though I normally shudder at the thought >of using pliers on a fastener of any sort. The strainer-to-tank joint is >made liquid tight by a metal sealing ring. I strongly recommend removing >as much fuel as is humanly possible and then maybe even tipping the >vehicle slightly so that the strainer area is not sitting in fuel when you >remove it. If fuel does run out, some of it will try to go between the >tank and the inside surface of the body (there is a rubber gasket between >the tank and the body). If fuel does manage to wick itself into the >interior of the car you might have to live with a diesel odor in the cabin. >Have fun... >Steve Morelen thanx, excellent info. My guess is that it'll be the same on the 126 chassis. I'm hoping for two things to happen first... one that it sells, in lieu of that, I'll run the tank completely dry and refill with good Diesel... if such exists. :) Guess I need to remember to carry a gallon of fuel so I can make it to a station, eh? :) I drove it to work yesterday, was running great... until I floored it coming up the Clearview hill... (climbs from sealevel to about 350ft in less than a mile) Then I could feel what felt like a lack of fuel... the early indications that the filter was clogging... Which btw, felt a lot better than it did before I swapped the injectors. I think #2 injector was the bad one. Other than the uphill max throttle weakness, it was running "brisk" and snappy... peppy even. So, before I spread Diesel all over the interior, myself and the driveway, I'll try running this tank empty, filling fresh and swapping filters again. Blowing air back through the fuel lines should reduce problems with the screen in the tank... otherwise I'll run the next tank dry and then pull the filter... if it's not sold by then... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:15:51 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: misc fuel stuff At 09:28 PM 1/3/01 -0500, Steve Morelen wrote: >I was reading my trusty 300D owner's manual and MBenz recommends the >following if winterized diesel is unavailable: >32 to 14 degrees F. 70% 2D diesel 30% kerosene >below 14 F. 50% 2D diesel 50% kerosene > >I believe the fuel distribution terminals probably do a pretty good job of >keeping the fuel protected from cold weather problems. I've had >experience as low as +10 F. and didn't have any problems. > >Steve Morelen >'84 300D Again, I think those recommendations are based on the lubricity requirements for the pump, as well as the idea of keeping the fuel from gelling. :) (If you keep your engine running it will circulate the fuel and keep it warm... btw, there is an inline fuel heater on ebay... ;) when I lived in Portland, Oregon we'd get cold snaps that would drop us into ice storms into the 20's and 15's... and NO Diesel #1 at the pumps. So I'd use 1 gallon of regular gas with a tank of Diesel. Never gelled or had any problems. Kerosene was always more expensive than Diesel any place I've been... I have heard what happens if you run a Diesel on pure gasoline. :) Not a good thing. A friend of a friend had their Benz filled up with Gas by mistake... the guy's wife drove it and noticed it was running really hot and making lots of noise... They popped the hood and my friend claims the engine was glowing red. They shut it off and it never turned over again. :) I've also heard a friend recount what happens when you run Diesel in a a gas rig... It really messed things up... the rig had to be towed, tanks drained and so on... I can't remember if actual mechanical damage occured or not now... john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 00:44:43 -0500 From: "John Heflin" Subject: Re: misc fuel stuff this reminded me of something... around thanksgiving time, I was talking to my cousin about my benz being a diesel, and she mentioned that her husband once had a 300D. so the story goes... one time he let his mother take it to go shopping. She had to stop to fill up and was watching the pump as it was filling and couldnt believe how expensive the diesel was! she had almost 3 gallons in and it was already up to $9. she cut it off and went to complain to the owner, who didnt say a word and just walked over and pointed to where it said "racing fuel" on the pump. a moment of silence passed and she then quietly asked where she could get the tank drained without her son finding out... john >From: john >To: "Steve Morelen" >CC: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >Subject: Re: misc fuel stuff >Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:15:51 -0800 > >At 09:28 PM 1/3/01 -0500, Steve Morelen wrote: >>I was reading my trusty 300D owner's manual and MBenz recommends the >>following if winterized diesel is unavailable: >>32 to 14 degrees F. 70% 2D diesel 30% kerosene >>below 14 F. 50% 2D diesel 50% kerosene >> >>I believe the fuel distribution terminals probably do a pretty good job of >>keeping the fuel protected from cold weather problems. I've had >>experience as low as +10 F. and didn't have any problems. >> >>Steve Morelen >>'84 300D > >Again, I think those recommendations are based on the lubricity >requirements >for the pump, as well as the idea of keeping the fuel from gelling. :) >(If you keep your engine running it will circulate the fuel and keep it >warm... btw, there is an inline fuel heater on ebay... ;) > >when I lived in Portland, Oregon we'd get cold snaps that would drop >us into ice storms into the 20's and 15's... and NO Diesel #1 at the >pumps. >So I'd use 1 gallon of regular gas with a tank of Diesel. Never gelled >or had any problems. Kerosene was always more expensive than Diesel any >place I've been... > >I have heard what happens if you run a Diesel on pure gasoline. :) Not >a good thing. A friend of a friend had their Benz filled up with Gas >by mistake... the guy's wife drove it and noticed it was running really >hot and making lots of noise... They popped the hood and my friend claims >the engine was glowing red. They shut it off and it never turned over >again. :) > >I've also heard a friend recount what happens when you run Diesel in a >a gas rig... It really messed things up... the rig had to be towed, tanks >drained and so on... I can't remember if actual mechanical damage occured >or not now... > >john > >------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:47:35 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: misc fuel stuff At 12:44 AM 1/4/01 -0500, John Heflin wrote: >was! she had almost 3 gallons in and it was already up to $9. she cut it >off and went to complain to the owner, who didnt say a word and just >walked over and pointed to where it said "racing fuel" on the pump. a >moment of silence passed and she then quietly asked where she could get >the tank drained without her son finding out... >john rofl... 3 gallons wouldn't have done too much damage... :) Besides the racing fuel would have been a higher octane, meaning SLOWER burning. :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 03:47:13 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Jacobs Subject: Re: misc fuel stuff Re-formulated diesel fuel begins to cloud around 20 deg F (if it is not treated). If you know the temp will fall below that, or your concerned about water in the fuel, you can use a good fuel additive. Also, keep in mind that the fuel distributor and/or the station will also be using some kind of additive to separate water and pump it out of the ground without any problems. There are so many good and reasonably priced diesel additives on the market that everyone should use them if they live in an area that has obvious seasonal temp changes (beautiful San Diego excluded (I'm an ex-patriot from there!!)). Besides keeping the fuel from turning to JELL-O, they lubricate pump parts, kill bacteria and fungus, clean the fuel system, etc. If you insist on using kerosene to mix into diesel for low temps, use what the manual suggests. A 30% kerosene-50% diesel mix should be good for 15-25 deg F temps, as long as you don't have water in the fuel. I have heard of many a fuel filter becoming so clogged with ICE crystals that the engine stopped. Diesel Dan, your "Anybody got a lighter? We need to start a fire under the fuel tank so we can get moving again!" man in Vancouver, WA ################################################################# (DO NOT USE FIRE OR FLAME TO LIQUIFY GELLED FUEL, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED, YOU DON'T WANT TO BE ON THE DARWIN AWARDS WEB SITE!!!) %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% - ------Original Message------ From: john To: John Heflin Sent: January 3, 2001 4:45:39 PM GMT Subject: Re: misc fuel stuff At 01:05 AM 1/3/01 -0500, you wrote: >so how much is good in the winter? average temp here is about 15-25F I'll defer that to Diesel Dan south of me... ;) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:03:24 -0500 From: "Steven B." Subject: RE: Oil Drains Just to add my experiences to what John has said.... I use Amsoil in all my vehicles-diesels and gas alike. I currently have a 1985 Honda Accord that I put 25,000 miles on between oil changes. I change the oil filter at 6000 mile intervals. I also have a 1994 Dodge Ram with the Cummins Diesel that I put 12000+ miles on between oil changes. Again I try to stick to the 6000 mile filter change interval. I also have a 1985 Mercedes 300SD. I am not able to use synthetics in it yet (with the exception of the transmission and differential) because I just put in a new longblock (more on that if anyone is interested). I have a Ford 7600 diesel farm tractor that I typically put 250 hours on between oil and filter changes-I reduce this if I am in extremely dusty conditions. As for my cars and truck they typically see 70000 miles annually split between the three of them. They rarely see less than 15 miles each time they are started. For those that don't typically put that many miles on their vehicles I think it would be prudent to stick to the 6 month regardless of mileage interval due to acid buildup within the oil. I use oil analysis every other oil change. To date the all wear metals have been less than normal (i.e. less than expected). The only abnormal reading I had was on my truck and it was high silicon. It was recommended I check my air filter. Sure enough it was dirty. I replaced it and all has been fine since then. In addition, I would like to thank John in particular for all his inputs. I read them all and believe that this list is a great resource. V/R Steve all this is true. that's why amsoil, with their 25,000 mile oil change for gas engines, says to change the oil filter at 6 months or 12,500 miles, or more often under severe conditions. they used to claim 15,000 miles for Diesels, but in both cases encourage oil analysis. personally I've never run my oil that long. :) I've tried, but something goes amok and I have to change it. I'd say it's a safe bet for normal driving that allows the oil to get fully up to temperature and all that, to go about 1/2 what they claim, or maybe 12,000 miles... I'm more comfortable with 7 or 8 thousand on my gas engines and about 4,000 on my Diesels. If I ever get a new rebuilt engine or a new vehicle, after I break it in properly I might try to go the distance, using oil analysis of course. :) I think the biggest benefit, in my mind, is knowing that the oil in the crankcase COULD go 25,000 miles, so when I change it at 5 or 6 or even 8,000 miles I'm reasonably confident that I haven't done a bad thing, especially if I've remembered to change the filters... ;) so for me and my house, amsoil synthetic with it's extended drain capability gives me a margin of safety due to my forgetfulness/busyness/neglect... :) as always, YMMV. ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #466 *********************************