From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #755 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Monday, April 29 2002 Volume 01 : Number 755 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? Re: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? Re: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? RE: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? RE: W123 - 240D RPM question RE: W123 - 240D RPM question Re: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? RE: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? RE: W123 - 240D RPM question Manual trans questions Re: W123 - 240D RPM question Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:27:32 -0400 From: Renaud OLGIATI Subject: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? The rainy season is upon us again, and streets are at times suitable for white-water rafting ;-3) How deep can I safely wade through with a 1978 W123 300D ? Taking into account I'm going slowly, not making waves ! TIA, Ron the Frog, on the rainy banks of the Paraguay River. - -- Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem -- William of Ockham (1285-1347/49) --- http://personales.conexion.com.py/~rolgiati --- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:50:18 US/Central From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: Re: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? They say 4 to 6 inches of MOVING water is strong enough to move a car, so definitely be careful. If it's just STANDING water, that's one of the fun parts about driving a diesel. You don't have to worry about splashes killing the electrical ignition system. I would guess that as long as you're not trying to traverse a bridge that is overrun with moving water, and you're moving slowly, you might be able to go deep enough for the water to reach the bottom of the doors. Suggestion: don't open the door to see if you got too deep. ;-) Alec > The rainy season is upon us again, and streets are at times suitable for > white-water rafting ;-3) > > How deep can I safely wade through with a 1978 W123 300D ? Taking into > account I'm going slowly, not making waves ! > > TIA, > > Ron the Frog, on the rainy banks of the Paraguay River. > -- > Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem > -- William of Ockham (1285-1347/49) > --- http://personales.conexion.com.py/~rolgiati --- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:47:08 -0400 From: Michael Frank Subject: Re: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? Since you don't have an ignition system, the fuse box is nicely gasketed, so the only issue is whether the air intake is above water. I've seen jeeps and such equipped with snorkels so that they could operate in fairly deep water. Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:13:39 -0600 From: "JC Jones" Subject: RE: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? Actually, you are better off "making waves". The slower you go the more water can flood the engine compartment, when you go a little faster you create a wake and get less flooding of the engine compartment (and the passenger compartment too). The key is to keep the water level below the air intake and any vents (the air intake on the w123 is not very well placed for deep water fording). My best guess would be 18" or less to prevent water flooding into the air intake at the top of the core support. JC Jones http://www.jtruck.net http://www.wagoneer.net 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1984 Grand Wagoneer "Eeyore" 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" * * * * * =================== "They that can give up * * * * =================== essential liberty to * * * * * =================== obtain a little ============================= temporary safety ============================= deserve neither ============================= liberty nor safety." ============================= -Benjamin Franklin - -> -----Original Message----- - -> From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net - -> [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Renaud OLGIATI - -> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 8:28 AM - -> To: *List Diesel-Benz - -> Subject: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? - -> - -> - -> The rainy season is upon us again, and streets are at times - -> suitable for - -> white-water rafting ;-3) - -> - -> How deep can I safely wade through with a 1978 W123 300D ? - -> Taking into - -> account I'm going slowly, not making waves ! - -> - -> TIA, - -> - -> Ron the Frog, on the rainy banks of the Paraguay River. - -> -- - -> Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem - -> -- William of Ockham (1285-1347/49) - -> --- http://personales.conexion.com.py/~rolgiati --- - -> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:18:07 -0500 From: "Black, Waylon" Subject: RE: W123 - 240D RPM question Mercedes came with a 'fixed' fan? Are you talking about the 'clutch' type? Mine is a 'clutch' type. Do you know the gear ratios of the MB 5-speed or at least the 5th gear. I am looking to lower my cruise rpms - doubt I would drive much faster. 3700 rpms -at- 80 mph. LOL Waylon -----Original Message----- From: Nepppi [mailto:nepppi-at-gmx.de] Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 2:22 AM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: W123 - 240D RPM question Hi Jim, the manual also says that the old diesel engines have a maximum torque at 2400 rpm. So that is what you want to have at highway speed for best economy. Does your 240D have an automatic transmission? If it does than I would try the rear axle of the 300turbos. They have a ratio of 3.07 compared to your 3.69 and with that axle your car would have 2400 rpm's at 55 mph. Depending on the area you live (rather flat or in the Rockies?) this would surely work. I own a 200D W123 (yeah, unreached 60 hps ;-)) which had a factory 3.92 rear axle. First I put a 3.58 rear axle in it and didn't notice any considerable difference at all. It was a bit more difficult to get the thing moving since you have to be more careful with the clutch. But the accelaration didn't change noticably and the fuel economy didn't change, either. And here is why. Since the engine runs at about 300 rpm's less on the autobahn I am driving faster than I did before. No wonder that the fuel economy was the same. Later I fitted a five gear standard transmission. In fifth gear the engine runs at 2400 rpm's at about 55 mph. The fuel economy improved slightly, but not too impressive since I am again driving faster than without the fifth gear. And believe me, whatever overall transmission ratio you have, you will automatically drive faster than before and won't notice an improvement in fuel economy. But here is what really gelped a lot concerning fuel economy. Remove the fixed engine fan and change to en electrical one. This saved 5 mpg. With the standard fan I got 31 mpg, after removing it I get 36 mpg. Maybe you should simply try it. You can remove the fan blade with 4 srews. Be sure to put 4 other screws in so you won't loose the pulley. If you try this on the highway and don't have any traffic jam it will work as the first test. I am driving my car like this for half a year now and haven't noticed any problems. But one has to fit an electrical fan for the summer or when using the ac because otherwise the enige get too hot. Bye, Thorsten At 08:14 26.04.02 -0500, you wrote: >Thanks Thorsten! > > This is what I suspected. Here's an observation I made on a trip this >past week. I put about 900 miles on my little 240D in two days. It >ran beautifully. BUT... I noticed that my fuel mileage dropped off >dramatically. It went from about 27-29mpg to 23mpg on the highway. >Now normally with a gas engine you get better fuel mileage performance >at HWY cruising. But I also know that numerous diesel experts have >told me that the optimum efficiency of a diesel engine is around 2200rpm. >After that your fuel mileage will drop off exponentially NOT linearly. >My experience on this trip would support that claim. > > Now I'm wondering if since this car was made for the American >market in the 80's, if it weren't optimized for 55mph since that was >the speed limit nation wide at that time. 2900 rpm is still a bit higher >that 2200 but a heck of a lot closer that 3275! > > I'm thinking about changing the gearing to get me closer to 2200. >I know someone asked about gearing a few weeks ago and Alec >pointed out that that would hurt acceleration in a car that already >has problems with acceleration but I'm more interested in efficiency ;) > >Any thoughts?!?! > >Jim/ > >'83 240D > >Nepppi wrote: > > > Hi Jim, > > > > a manual available in Germany says 3275 RPM at 100 km/h in fourth gear. > > This means about 2900 rpm at 55 mph and 3700 rpm at 70 mph. Depending on > > your tires it might be more or less, if you have an automatic tranny the > > engines usually make a few rpm's more. > > > > Hope this helps, > > > > Thorsten ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:28:24 -0700 From: "Dan J." Subject: RE: W123 - 240D RPM question At 11:18 AM 4/29/2002 -0500, Black, Waylon wrote: >Mercedes came with a 'fixed' fan? Are you talking about the 'clutch' type? >Mine is a 'clutch' type. > >Do you know the gear ratios of the MB 5-speed or at least the 5th gear. > >I am looking to lower my cruise rpms - doubt I would drive much faster. 3700 >rpms -at- 80 mph. LOL > > > >Waylon Don't laugh. There is probably a good reason for the 3700 RPM's screaming at you. Maybe to tell you you really shouldn't be doing 80? Just a silly little guess :-) Diesel Dan, your "Can I open my eyes now or are you still doing 80?" man in Washougal, WA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:29:48 -0700 From: "Dan J." Subject: Re: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? At 10:47 AM 4/29/2002 -0400, Michael Frank wrote: >Since you don't have an ignition system, the fuse box is nicely gasketed, >so the only issue is whether the air intake is above water. I've seen >jeeps and such equipped with snorkels so that they could operate in fairly >deep water. > >Mike Frank Bring soap, you can wash up on the way to the dance! Diesel Dan, your not so squeaky clean man in Washougal, WA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 12:33:43 -0700 From: "Dan J." Subject: RE: Wading depth of a W123 300D ? At 09:13 AM 4/29/2002 -0600, JC Jones wrote: >Actually, you are better off "making waves". The slower you go the more >water can flood the engine compartment, when you go a little faster you >create a wake and get less flooding of the engine compartment (and the >passenger compartment too). > >The key is to keep the water level below the air intake and any vents >(the air intake on the w123 is not very well placed for deep water >fording). My best guess would be 18" or less to prevent water flooding >into the air intake at the top of the core support. All joking aside, aren't there other things to be concerned about? Rapid cooling of wheel bearings and brake discs? Water and assorted types of crud in the alternator and it's bearings? Bits that should absolutely not be allowed to get rusty? Wiring? Think about it, get that thing down low enough, and your gonna have electrical shorts, at least, even before the engine even thinks about getting swamped, aren't ya? Diesel Dan, your high and dry man in Washougal, WA PS: It's a bee-yew-T-full day here, I'm gonna go ride something with 2 wheels, and I suggest you do the same! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:07:37 -0500 From: "Black, Waylon" Subject: RE: W123 - 240D RPM question I don't always drive at 80. But there are occasions that I have to. I guess you get used to it, when you live in/around the Dallas/Ft Worth area. People are nuts. Right lane travels at 50-55 mph and the left lane is 75+. So, I try to camp out in the right lane until I need to get around somebody. Left lane until I get around the slower traffic, then back to the right lane. Sometimes you get lucky and get a middle lane which is a comfortable 5-10 miles over whatever the limit is. I try to keep it at 70 mph but that is still around 3400 rpms. The car doesn't seem to mind(strain), but I don't like the high rpms for an extended amount of time. Car has 295,000 miles and still gets around 25-26 mpg. I drive it about 100 miles a day. I live in a rural area that is single lane, each side. The speed limit use to be 70(now 65). Some of the big trucks, ride your bumper, if you do not go fast enough. Most have a governor limiting their speed(but not all). But you already know that - being a professional, truck driver. You have probably seen what I am talking about. ;) I like to give big trucks their space - they get pissed if you crowd them or cut them off. Wanna know how you are driving? Get a CB - truckers don't mind telling you! LOL Waylon Dallas, Texas Don't laugh. There is probably a good reason for the 3700 RPM's screaming at you. Maybe to tell you you really shouldn't be doing 80? Just a silly little guess :-) Diesel Dan, your "Can I open my eyes now or are you still doing 80?" man in Washougal, WA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:12:04 -0500 From: "Black, Waylon" Subject: Manual trans questions Helps to change the subject line, sometimes. Does anyone know the gear ratios of the MB 5-speed or at least the 5th gear. I am looking to lower my cruise rpms with the 3.07 ring gear. (1983 300 SD) Waylon -----Original Message----- From: Nepppi [mailto:nepppi-at-gmx.de] Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 2:22 AM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: W123 - 240D RPM question Hi Jim, the manual also says that the old diesel engines have a maximum torque at 2400 rpm. So that is what you want to have at highway speed for best economy. Does your 240D have an automatic transmission? If it does than I would try the rear axle of the 300turbos. They have a ratio of 3.07 compared to your 3.69 and with that axle your car would have 2400 rpm's at 55 mph. Depending on the area you live (rather flat or in the Rockies?) this would surely work. I own a 200D W123 (yeah, unreached 60 hps ;-)) which had a factory 3.92 rear axle. First I put a 3.58 rear axle in it and didn't notice any considerable difference at all. It was a bit more difficult to get the thing moving since you have to be more careful with the clutch. But the accelaration didn't change noticably and the fuel economy didn't change, either. And here is why. Since the engine runs at about 300 rpm's less on the autobahn I am driving faster than I did before. No wonder that the fuel economy was the same. Later I fitted a five gear standard transmission. In fifth gear the engine runs at 2400 rpm's at about 55 mph. The fuel economy improved slightly, but not too impressive since I am again driving faster than without the fifth gear. And believe me, whatever overall transmission ratio you have, you will automatically drive faster than before and won't notice an improvement in fuel economy. But here is what really gelped a lot concerning fuel economy. Remove the fixed engine fan and change to en electrical one. This saved 5 mpg. With the standard fan I got 31 mpg, after removing it I get 36 mpg. Maybe you should simply try it. You can remove the fan blade with 4 srews. Be sure to put 4 other screws in so you won't loose the pulley. If you try this on the highway and don't have any traffic jam it will work as the first test. I am driving my car like this for half a year now and haven't noticed any problems. But one has to fit an electrical fan for the summer or when using the ac because otherwise the enige get too hot. Bye, Thorsten At 08:14 26.04.02 -0500, you wrote: >Thanks Thorsten! > > This is what I suspected. Here's an observation I made on a trip this >past week. I put about 900 miles on my little 240D in two days. It >ran beautifully. BUT... I noticed that my fuel mileage dropped off >dramatically. It went from about 27-29mpg to 23mpg on the highway. >Now normally with a gas engine you get better fuel mileage performance >at HWY cruising. But I also know that numerous diesel experts have >told me that the optimum efficiency of a diesel engine is around 2200rpm. >After that your fuel mileage will drop off exponentially NOT linearly. >My experience on this trip would support that claim. > > Now I'm wondering if since this car was made for the American >market in the 80's, if it weren't optimized for 55mph since that was >the speed limit nation wide at that time. 2900 rpm is still a bit higher >that 2200 but a heck of a lot closer that 3275! > > I'm thinking about changing the gearing to get me closer to 2200. >I know someone asked about gearing a few weeks ago and Alec >pointed out that that would hurt acceleration in a car that already >has problems with acceleration but I'm more interested in efficiency ;) > >Any thoughts?!?! > >Jim/ > >'83 240D > >Nepppi wrote: > > > Hi Jim, > > > > a manual available in Germany says 3275 RPM at 100 km/h in fourth gear. > > This means about 2900 rpm at 55 mph and 3700 rpm at 70 mph. Depending on > > your tires it might be more or less, if you have an automatic tranny the > > engines usually make a few rpm's more. > > > > Hope this helps, > > > > Thorsten ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:36:36 -0500 From: Jim & Barb Hoffman Subject: Re: W123 - 240D RPM question My preference too. I try to keep it between 69 & 72 mph. It seems to like it there. My car had a "fixed" fan. No clutch. Jim/ '83 240D "Black, Waylon" wrote: > I don't always drive at 80. But there are occasions that I have to. I guess > you get used to it, when you live in/around the Dallas/Ft Worth area. People > are nuts. Right lane travels at 50-55 mph and the left lane is 75+. So, I > try to camp out in the right lane until I need to get around somebody. Left > lane until I get around the slower traffic, then back to the right lane. > Sometimes you get lucky and get a middle lane which is a comfortable 5-10 > miles over whatever the limit is. I try to keep it at 70 mph but that is > still around 3400 rpms. The car doesn't seem to mind(strain), but I don't > like the high rpms for an extended amount of time. Car has 295,000 miles and > still gets around 25-26 mpg. I drive it about 100 miles a day. > I live in a rural area that is single lane, each side. The speed limit > use to be 70(now 65). Some of the big trucks, ride your bumper, if you do > not go fast enough. Most have a governor limiting their speed(but not all). > But you already know that - being a professional, truck driver. You have > probably seen what I am talking about. ;) > I like to give big trucks their space - they get pissed if you crowd > them or cut them off. Wanna know how you are driving? Get a CB - truckers > don't mind telling you! LOL > > Waylon > Dallas, Texas > > Don't laugh. There is probably a good reason for the 3700 RPM's screaming > at you. > Maybe to tell you you really shouldn't be doing 80? > Just a silly little guess :-) > Diesel Dan, your "Can I open my eyes now or are you still doing 80?" man in > Washougal, WA ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #755 *********************************