From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #856 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Friday, January 10 2003 Volume 01 : Number 856 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: glow plugs considering a '75 300D Re: considering a '75 300D Re: considering a '75 300D Re: And MORE glow plug stuff ! uh oh... Re: uh oh... RE: uh oh... Re: uh oh... Re: uh oh... RE: uh oh... Re: uh oh... Re: uh oh... Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 21:45:31 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: glow plugs what kind of meter are you using? Do you have a miliohm meter? While your math is impecible, I find it slightly difficult to believe that you're getting accurate readings with a handheld meter. The test of a glow plug is if it has resistance/continuity over what the exact value is. Each one of these devices will vary, they are not precision devices. The fact that they're reading low resistance is great. But a 9v battery, or a pack of AA's in your meter is not likely to produce a consistent power source for something like a heating element. Besides the inability of an ohm meter to provide the current needed to heat the device, the thermal characteristics of the glow plugs will also change their resistance. Two valid tests are what I know for a glow plug. Simple resistance like you did. If it's not open, it's usually good. :) Second test is to attach it to power and watch it heat up. Not recommended for a few reasons... safety is one, second it's not good for the plug as it's exposed to an open environment and subjected to abnormal thermal stresses... not to mention it'll blister yer pinkies in a heartbeat. ;) The other issue with glow plugs is good connection to the block and to the input connection... clean connections make a big difference. While you're theory is simple as PIE, it's not testing under true operating conditions... ;) Ohm outta here... ;) john At 04:59 AM 1/9/2003 +0000, diesel-benz-digest wrote: >Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 19:51:47 -0800 >From: "Derickam AA" >Subject: Re: Glow plug measure >Greg, >Yep it does using the formula for ohms law to clarify. >I = E/R >I = Current in Amps >E = Volts DC in Volts (we will use 12 VDC) >R = Resistance in Ohms >Glow plug resistance: >.5 ohm gives 24 amps to the glow plug or 288 watts of power(980 BTU) >.6 ohm gives 20 amps to the glow plug or 240 watts of power(816 BTU) >1 ohm gives 12 amps to the glow plug or 144 watts of power(490 BTU) >So from .5 ohm to 1 ohm you lose roughly half of your glow heat. >BTUs are in BTU per hour. Also note total current draw is the above number >times the number of cylinders ( .5 ohms 24amps (x4 cylinders) = 96 amps) >this explains the need for a hefty battery. >I am at the end of the day if I am incorrect on the numbers please let me >know. >Regards, >Derick Amburgey - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 21:48:44 -0800 (PST) From: Anaeis N Subject: considering a '75 300D Does anyone have any cautions against purchasing a 1975 300D that seems in very good condition? Will it be significantly slower or less road-worthy than a Benz a few years younger? I've heard that it will be worse in winter than its slighly younger counterparts. Rebecca Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 06:58:46 -0500 From: "S.D.Byers" Subject: Re: considering a '75 300D They can be a little painful to start in very cold weather, but there is a nice fast glow conversion kit available that fixes that. Also they often already have a block heater that makes a lot of difference. What climate do you live in. I have no trouble starting mine in NYC area. That year is a non-turbo, so is slower that a W123 chassis 300D from 1982 for example. Still a nice car. I have that engine in SDB On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Anaeis N wrote: |Does anyone have any cautions against purchasing a 1975 300D that seems in very good condition? Will it be significantly slower or less road-worthy than a Benz a few years younger? I've heard that it will be worse in winter than its slighly younger counterparts. | |Rebecca |Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:39:04 US/Central From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: Re: considering a '75 300D They can be wonderful cars, and there are many people who simply adore them. That said, the lack of the turbocharger, which wasn't added to that size car until 1981, means you won't be winning any races. If the motor is properly tuned, which is really fairly easy to achieve, you will at least be able to get out of your own way. I think the next body style (known as W123 chassis, where a 75 would be a W115) introduced some improvement in how the rear suspension handled bumpy corners, but a 75 in good shape is still very roadworthy. Released around 1977, the W123 series also proved to be a little more resistant to rust. If the motor's in reasonably good condition, winter starting shouldn't be too bad, depending on just how cold it gets. There are several things that can be done to improve cold starting for only moderate cost, including updating the glow plugs and switching to synthetic motor oil, but you may not need any of that if you live in Texas, for example. A 300D from 1981 to 1985 would be the newer chassis with the turbocharged diesel motor. Those would be better enough to say the difference is significant. Anything before that, and the difference may not be enough to achieve that categorization, so I would think that just a couple of years is not going to make a difference. Easily the most significant factor in road-worthiness on a 20 to 30 year old diesel Benz is the condition of the specific example you are considering. A 75 300D in very good condition could be a much better car than a neglected 85 300D turbodiesel. That's why many of us feel that spending about a hundred bucks to have a prepurchase inspection performed by someone familiar with that model of car is the wisest investment. These cars have absolutely oodles of personality. Be very careful. Once you spend some time with a good example, it will be very difficult to go back to any other kind of car. ;-) Good luck, Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 151K > Does anyone have any cautions against purchasing a 1975 300D that seems in very good condition? Will it be significantly slower or less road-worthy than a Benz a few years younger? I've heard that it will be worse in winter than its slighly younger counterparts. > > Rebecca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:07:17 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: And MORE glow plug stuff ! even using a clamp on meter wouldn't give consistent reading because the values are going to change over temperature/time. Heating elements of any kind vary widely. On some glow plug systems they use a pulsing system to limit the duty cycle of the plug to prevent it going thermonuclear... ;) GM does this... they actually pulse them so they're not getting the full power for the full time... that may be why you toasted that one... it didn't have a place to transfer the heat and it went nuclear on you, or it wasn't designed to have full power all the time. I think some of the "rapid" glow plugs that Bosch made for the Rabbits were like this as well. It's kind of cool stuff, but normal DC Ohm's law stuff doesn't really work out too well. Same with incadescent lamps. Filaments, heating elements and such behave within a range of values. Mostly one looks for open or continuity (low resistance) in these circuits. :) At times I miss designing circuits... and at times I'm glad I'm not doing that any more. ;) john At 10:38 PM 1/8/2003 -0800, Derickam AA wrote: >John, > >Agreed I did not take any of that into account. > >Another way I have done it in the past, is to borrow a clamp on ammeter >and see if the current is close to the base line taken when the plugs were >new and the head was cleaned and rebuilt or when the car was starting >properly. (I take the measurement back at the relay and have someone glow >for me) While I do not have my notes in front of me I am sure the reading >was above 80 amps, I will see if I can scrouge up the data tomorrow. > >Since everyone does not have easy access to a clamp-on Amp meter. I used >the DMM (Digital Multi Meter) check which is quick and dirty. I think >using the clamp-on is a superior method though. When I owned a 240d I >tried hooking a glow plug up to 12 VDC battery and I smoked it "oooopppps" >I will never do that again. :) > >Anyhow... > >My DMM has not let me down yet though for a quick relative indication I >have kept the bad glow plugs around just so I know what a bad one reads on >a DMM(sometimes I lose track of my notes). :) > > >Derick Amburgey >Automated Control Specialist >Port Of Seattle/SeaTac Airport/Satellite Train System >Amateur Radio Callsign: K7DXX >List "Mom" of Diesel-Benz reflector >1985 Mercedes 190D "Tuti" 280,000 Mi >1985 Mercedes 190D "Red" 175,000 Mi >1984 Mercedes 190D "Charity" 160,000 Mi > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- >From: john >To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net, diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net >Subject: Re: glow plugs >Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 21:45:31 -0800 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from krusty1.krusty-motorsports.com ([192.94.170.8]) by >mc9-f36.bay6.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, 8 Jan >2003 21:47:36 -0800 >Received: from majordomo by krusty1.krusty-motorsports.com with local >(Exim 4.10)id 18WWTM-0001Pc-00for diesel-benz-out-at-digest.net; Thu, 09 Jan >2003 06:47:24 +0000 >Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.2.20030108213839.01f1d618-at-wagoneers.com> >X-Sender: john-at-wagoneers.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 >In-Reply-To: >Sender: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net >Precedence: bulk >Return-Path: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jan 2003 05:47:36.0625 (UTC) >FILETIME=[9CFDAA10:01C2B7A2] > >what kind of meter are you using? Do you have a miliohm meter? > >While your math is impecible, >I find it slightly difficult to believe that you're getting accurate >readings with a handheld meter. The test of a glow plug is if >it has resistance/continuity over what the exact value is. Each one >of these devices will vary, they are not precision devices. The >fact that they're reading low resistance is great. But a 9v battery, >or a pack of AA's in your meter is not likely to produce a consistent >power source for something like a heating element. > >Besides the inability of an ohm meter to provide the current needed >to heat the device, the thermal characteristics of the glow plugs >will also change their resistance. > >Two valid tests are what I know for a glow plug. Simple resistance >like you did. If it's not open, it's usually good. :) Second test >is to attach it to power and watch it heat up. Not recommended for >a few reasons... safety is one, second it's not good for the plug >as it's exposed to an open environment and subjected to abnormal >thermal stresses... not to mention it'll blister yer pinkies in a heartbeat. > >;) > >The other issue with glow plugs is good connection to the block and >to the input connection... clean connections make a big difference. > >While you're theory is simple as PIE, it's not testing under true >operating conditions... ;) > >Ohm outta here... ;) >john > >At 04:59 AM 1/9/2003 +0000, diesel-benz-digest wrote: >>Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 19:51:47 -0800 >>From: "Derickam AA" >>Subject: Re: Glow plug measure >>Greg, >>Yep it does using the formula for ohms law to clarify. >>I = E/R >>I = Current in Amps >>E = Volts DC in Volts (we will use 12 VDC) >>R = Resistance in Ohms >>Glow plug resistance: >>.5 ohm gives 24 amps to the glow plug or 288 watts of power(980 BTU) >>.6 ohm gives 20 amps to the glow plug or 240 watts of power(816 BTU) >>1 ohm gives 12 amps to the glow plug or 144 watts of power(490 BTU) >>So from .5 ohm to 1 ohm you lose roughly half of your glow heat. >>BTUs are in BTU per hour. Also note total current draw is the above number >>times the number of cylinders ( .5 ohms 24amps (x4 cylinders) = 96 amps) >>this explains the need for a hefty battery. >>I am at the end of the day if I am incorrect on the numbers please let me >>know. >>Regards, >>Derick Amburgey > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 13:50:08 -0800 From: john Subject: uh oh... a friend told me about an '81 300TD... light yellow... turbo Diesel even... going to look at it tomorrow... ;) no sunroof though... :( john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:06:14 -0800 (PST) From: Jerome Kaidor Subject: Re: uh oh... john wrote: > > a friend told me about an '81 300TD... light yellow... > turbo Diesel even... going to look at it tomorrow... ;) > no sunroof though... :( > *** Well, if it ain't there, it can't leak :). - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:15:51 -0700 From: scott_haaland-at-agilent.com Subject: RE: uh oh... Amen to that....my Acura Legend has a sunroof that leaks, and boy is that a surprise when it dumps on you after you go on a slight incline!!! ....I really should fix that! Scott - -- Scott Haaland 80 300 SD - The Silver Hornet 96 6.5L TurboDiesel Suburban 87 Acura Legend 83 VW Vanagon 69 Chevy 3/4 Ton Pickup - -----Original Message----- From: Jerome Kaidor [mailto:jerry-at-tr2.com] Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 2:06 PM To: john-at-wagoneers.com Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: uh oh... john wrote: > > a friend told me about an '81 300TD... light yellow... > turbo Diesel even... going to look at it tomorrow... ;) > no sunroof though... :( > *** Well, if it ain't there, it can't leak :). - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:19:53 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: uh oh... At 02:06 PM 1/9/2003 -0800, Jerome Kaidor wrote: >john wrote: > > a friend told me about an '81 300TD... light yellow... > > turbo Diesel even... going to look at it tomorrow... ;) > > no sunroof though... :( > > >*** Well, if it ain't there, it can't leak :). > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) quite true... besides, my wife hates sunroofs... so this is actually a plus... my son wants to buy my XJ and after selling it and the '76 280Z I'll have $ left over to fix any little Benz related problems... plus the benefit of increased fuel economy will appeal to my wife... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:23:30 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: uh oh... On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 02:06:14PM -0800, Jerome Kaidor wrote: > > a friend told me about an '81 300TD... light yellow... > > turbo Diesel even... going to look at it tomorrow... ;) > > no sunroof though... :( > > > *** Well, if it ain't there, it can't leak :). Hm. Sounds like you've owned a british car :) My complaints about sunroofs is they usually cut down on headroom. I'm tall enough that is a problem for me in bmw's. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:29:56 -0800 From: john Subject: RE: uh oh... At 03:15 PM 1/9/2003 -0700, scott_haaland-at-agilent.com wrote: >Amen to that....my Acura Legend has a sunroof that leaks, and boy is that >a surprise when it dumps on you after you go on a slight incline!!! > >....I really should fix that! oh yeah, it's really cold in your lap, or down the back of your neck... and then the whistling wind... however, when the climate control goes beserk it's nice to be able to open the hatch and let the hot air escape before one perishes... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:01:41 -0800 (PST) From: Jerome Kaidor Subject: Re: uh oh... Kevin Pekarek wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 02:06:14PM -0800, Jerome Kaidor wrote: > > > a friend told me about an '81 300TD... light yellow... > > > turbo Diesel even... going to look at it tomorrow... ;) > > > no sunroof though... :( > > > > > *** Well, if it ain't there, it can't leak :). > > Hm. Sounds like you've owned a british car :) > *** More than one. Lessee.... '58 MGA '55 TR2 '75 Norton Commando '84 Jaguar - Jerry "leakmeister" Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:20:36 -0500 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: uh oh... Hmmm, I have a general policy. No sunroof No testdrive. That usually keeps me from buying cars without one. I open mine all the time (then again I live in Atlanta in fact I had mine open today on the way home from work). I like it for airflow but as well for the ability to see traffic helicopters flying overhead when I am stuck on the expressway on my way home from work. While I could get out of the car and watch like everyone else its just more fun this way R. john wrote: > a friend told me about an '81 300TD... light yellow... > turbo Diesel even... going to look at it tomorrow... ;) > no sunroof though... :( > > john > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #856 *********************************