From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #857 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Friday, January 10 2003 Volume 01 : Number 857 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: 300TD Re: Glow plug measure Re: glow plugs Re: 300TD Re: 300TD Re: glow plugs Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 15:22:05 -0800 From: john Subject: 300TD What should I look for on this '81 300TD? I mean besides the normal Rube Goldberg silliness? ;) Don't really need a wagon, but they are cool and practical, but something in the back of my mind wants to mount this thing on a 4x4 chassis... keeping a Diesel of course... problem is I just sold both axles from my son's '77 Cherokee... ;) While a 300CD would be my first choice, the more I see these wagons the more interest I have in them. I guess I'm not a "normal car" type person. It has to be a Jeep or something unique... ;) If this thing is nice it and my wife doesn't totally hate it, it might be useful to displace the '99 WJ... chance of that happening? not likely in this lifetime... ;) Unless fuel prices go really crazy. Her WJ gets around 15 mpg in town... my XJ is getting closer to 17 in town, nice little 4.0L with 240,000 miles on the original engine/trans... (funny, same as the Benz) The 300TD also has 240K on it. The guy has had it for a year. It came from Benz Friends so it must have been wrecked before. The guy said the hood and front fender are a slightly different color. Benz Friends is a pretty decent MB source though, I've bought lots of parts through them so they're trustworthy. With my son interested in my '87 XJ this might work out real well, I was thinking of getting a newer XJ, but this could be better. Unless it snows, but then I have the wife's WJ. My '83 J10 might not be done until summer... and something like this could remain in the fleet after it is done since it's economical and a people hauler. :) Hmmm... I could install that alarm system we took out of Superdawg with electric door locks added in for remote entry... tint the back windows... practical, unique, economical... We'll see... y'all don't get too excited for me. I'll take pictures either way... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 17:01:49 -0800 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: Glow plug measure Derrick: I just love this technoid stuff! Thanks so much. I even kinda sorta understand it. That's the scary part. Greg At 07:51 PM 1/8/03 , Derickam AA wrote: >Greg, > >Yep it does using the formula for ohms law to clarify. > >I = E/R > >I = Current in Amps >E = Volts DC in Volts (we will use 12 VDC) >R = Resistance in Ohms > >Glow plug resistance: > >.5 ohm gives 24 amps to the glow plug or 288 watts of power(980 BTU) >.6 ohm gives 20 amps to the glow plug or 240 watts of power(816 BTU) >1 ohm gives 12 amps to the glow plug or 144 watts of power(490 BTU) > >So from .5 ohm to 1 ohm you lose roughly half of your glow heat. >BTUs are in BTU per hour. Also note total current draw is the above number >times the number of cylinders ( .5 ohms 24amps (x4 cylinders) = 96 amps) >this explains the need for a hefty battery. > >I am at the end of the day if I am incorrect on the numbers please let me >know. > > > >Regards, > > > > > > >Derick Amburgey >Automated Control Specialist >Port Of Seattle/SeaTac Airport/Satellite Train System >Amateur Radio Callsign: K7DXX >List "Mom" of Diesel-Benz reflector >1985 Mercedes 190D "Tuti" 280,000 Mi >1985 Mercedes 190D "Red" 175,000 Mi >1984 Mercedes 190D "Charity" 160,000 Mi > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- >From: Greg Fiorentino >To: "Derickam AA" >CC: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net >Subject: Re: Glow plug measure > >Interesting, I wouldn't have thought such a small difference in resistance >would indicate a failing plug. Thanks for the info! > >At 05:14 PM 1/7/03 , you wrote: >> >>With an Ohmmeter, testing the plugs is simplicity itself. Take the lid >>off the relay. Pull the 6 connector block off. connect one lead from >>the ohmmeter to ground. Probe each of the 5 connectors. They should >>read more-or-less 1 ohm of resistance. If much higher they are open and >>need replacing. >> >> >>Yep that is how I do it, I have fewer cylinders to check but same >>procedure. In my case the glow plug resistance must be below .6 or 6/10 >>of a Ohm. >> >>When I had starting troubles the glow plug resistance was at .7 of an ohm >>lowest and the highest reading was .9 . >> >>When all the plugs were replaced they were all consistently .5 ohms. Car >>has been going strong since. >> >>My glow indicator also was indicating a proper glow sequence during this >>time so I think it is just an indication that voltage is being applied to >>the unit and that is it. >> >>Anyhow just my 2 cents..... >> >> >> >>Derick Amburgey >>Automated Control Specialist >>Port Of Seattle/SeaTac Airport/Satellite Train System >>Amateur Radio Callsign: K7DXX >>List "Mom" of Diesel-Benz reflector >>1985 Mercedes 190D "Tuti" 280,000 Mi >>1985 Mercedes 190D "Red" 175,000 Mi >>1984 Mercedes 190D "Charity" 160,000 Mi >> >> >> >> >> >>----Original Message Follows---- >>From: Greg Fiorentino >>To: Steve Fallin >> >>With an Ohmmeter, testing the plugs is simplicity itself. Take the lid >>off the relay. Pull the 6 connector block off. connect one lead from >>the ohmmeter to ground. Probe each of the 5 connectors. They should >>read more-or-less 1 ohm of resistance. If much higher they are open and >>need replacing. >> >>At 05:37 PM 1/6/03 , you wrote: >>>regarding # 3 below: >>>I recently had problems getting my 84 going as the mornings got cold here in >>>Seattle. It turned out that I had almost no functionality from my Glow >>>system even though the fault indicator light indicated that everything was >>>fine. After the system failed completely, I invested an afternoon and $50 is >>>swapping out the glow plugs. Even well below freezing, I now hit the crank >>>as soon as the light goes out and the engine fires immediately. Under >>>identical circumstances before I installed the new plugs, it took 5 min. or >>>so to get the car started in the morning. >>> >>>Bottom line: If the car cranks & cranks but eventually starts, suspect the >>>glows & replace them all. >>>The MB shop manual suggests that the Glow fault indicator circuit isn't >>>entirely reliable and will not always indicate a fault if you have a single >>>glow plug out, or if the set is old and operating below peak efficiency. >>> >>>As I recall the cold weather starting procedures are recommended for air >>>temps. below 32F for the pump 3 times and crank it variation and below 0F >>>for the pump 3 times and hold it down variation. >>> >>> >>>Steve Fallin >>>84 300D >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: scott_haaland-at-agilent.com [mailto:scott_haaland-at-agilent.com] >>>Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:47 PM >>>To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >>>Subject: Little known facts >>> >>> >>>3) In cold weather, starting can be aided by pumping the accelerator 3 times >>>prior to engaging the starter. I've tried this, and even though it wasn't >>>very cold by Montana Standards, it was cold by California standards here in >>>Sacramento (ie: 40 degrees F), and it made the start much quicker and >>>easier. This was after letting the glow plugs go for close to one minute >>>also, which is something I already knew, but was also in the manual. >>> >>>Happy Benzing, >>>Scott >>>-- >>>Scott Haaland >>> >>>96 6.5L TurboDiesel Suburban >>>80 300 SD - The Silver Hornet (maybe for sale or parts, still deciding...I >>>love Diesel!!!) >>>87 Acura Legend >>>83 VW Vanagon with 2000 Jetta engine conversion from TIICO (for sale) >>>69 Chevy 3/4 Ton Pickup >> >>Greg Fiorentino >>gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net >> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online >>http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > >Greg Fiorentino >Vancouver USA >gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net > >'84 300D Turbo >'79 300TD >'85 F-350 6.9 crew cab > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Greg Fiorentino gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 17:10:46 -0800 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: glow plugs John: What about the "proof of the pudding" test...that the car started significantly better after replacing the allegedly off-spec plugs. I am real big on such practical tests. Your point that the heat significantly changes the resistance is well taken though. The factory manual has some pretty graphs that show this effect. BTW I replaced my preglow relay in the '84 turbo with a new one last night and it starts up better than ever. Greg At 09:45 PM 1/8/03 , john wrote: >what kind of meter are you using? Do you have a miliohm meter? > >While your math is impecible, >I find it slightly difficult to believe that you're getting accurate >readings with a handheld meter. The test of a glow plug is if >it has resistance/continuity over what the exact value is. Each one >of these devices will vary, they are not precision devices. The >fact that they're reading low resistance is great. But a 9v battery, >or a pack of AA's in your meter is not likely to produce a consistent >power source for something like a heating element. > >Besides the inability of an ohm meter to provide the current needed >to heat the device, the thermal characteristics of the glow plugs >will also change their resistance. > >Two valid tests are what I know for a glow plug. Simple resistance >like you did. If it's not open, it's usually good. :) Second test >is to attach it to power and watch it heat up. Not recommended for >a few reasons... safety is one, second it's not good for the plug >as it's exposed to an open environment and subjected to abnormal >thermal stresses... not to mention it'll blister yer pinkies in a heartbeat. > >;) > >The other issue with glow plugs is good connection to the block and >to the input connection... clean connections make a big difference. > >While you're theory is simple as PIE, it's not testing under true >operating conditions... ;) > >Ohm outta here... ;) >john > >At 04:59 AM 1/9/2003 +0000, diesel-benz-digest wrote: >>Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 19:51:47 -0800 >>From: "Derickam AA" >>Subject: Re: Glow plug measure >>Greg, >>Yep it does using the formula for ohms law to clarify. >>I = E/R >>I = Current in Amps >>E = Volts DC in Volts (we will use 12 VDC) >>R = Resistance in Ohms >>Glow plug resistance: >>.5 ohm gives 24 amps to the glow plug or 288 watts of power(980 BTU) >>.6 ohm gives 20 amps to the glow plug or 240 watts of power(816 BTU) >>1 ohm gives 12 amps to the glow plug or 144 watts of power(490 BTU) >>So from .5 ohm to 1 ohm you lose roughly half of your glow heat. >>BTUs are in BTU per hour. Also note total current draw is the above number >>times the number of cylinders ( .5 ohms 24amps (x4 cylinders) = 96 amps) >>this explains the need for a hefty battery. >>I am at the end of the day if I am incorrect on the numbers please let me >>know. >>Regards, >>Derick Amburgey > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg Fiorentino gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 17:25:55 -0800 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: 300TD John: We love my wife's '79, which is even the same color, down to the slightly different fender and hood. Also no sunroof. The hydraulic suspension is great, but if it doesn't work I believe the fix is costly (I hope I don't find out how costly). It is amazing how much stuff you can put in the back without affecting the ride or height. The ride is also noticeably smoother than my '84 sedan, and surprisingly there is more legroom in the back for my 15 yr. old 6 footer twin boys. I thought I would have to go SD for that. At 03:22 PM 1/9/03 , you wrote: >What should I look for on this '81 300TD? > >I mean besides the normal Rube Goldberg silliness? ;) > >Don't really need a wagon, but they are cool and practical, >but something in the back of my mind wants to mount this thing >on a 4x4 chassis... keeping a Diesel of course... problem is >I just sold both axles from my son's '77 Cherokee... ;) > >While a 300CD would be my first choice, the more I see these >wagons the more interest I have in them. I guess I'm not a >"normal car" type person. It has to be a Jeep or something unique... ;) > >If this thing is nice it and my wife doesn't totally hate it, it >might be useful to displace the '99 WJ... chance of that happening? >not likely in this lifetime... ;) Unless fuel prices go really >crazy. Her WJ gets around 15 mpg in town... my XJ is getting closer >to 17 in town, nice little 4.0L with 240,000 miles on the original >engine/trans... (funny, same as the Benz) > >The 300TD also has 240K on it. The guy has had it for a year. It >came from Benz Friends so it must have been wrecked before. The >guy said the hood and front fender are a slightly different color. >Benz Friends is a pretty decent MB source though, I've bought lots >of parts through them so they're trustworthy. > >With my son interested in my '87 XJ this might work out real well, >I was thinking of getting a newer XJ, but this could be better. Unless >it snows, but then I have the wife's WJ. > >My '83 J10 might not be done until summer... and something like this >could remain in the fleet after it is done since it's economical and >a people hauler. :) > >Hmmm... I could install that alarm system we took out of Superdawg >with electric door locks added in for remote entry... tint the back >windows... practical, unique, economical... > >We'll see... y'all don't get too excited for me. I'll take pictures >either way... ;) > >john >------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg Fiorentino Vancouver USA gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net '84 300D Turbo '79 300TD '85 F-350 6.9 crew cab ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:46:42 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: 300TD At 06:51 PM 1/9/2003 -0600, Jan Guthrie wrote: >John, >I am not sure if the '81 had a Turbo (if that matters to you). >Jan > >john wrote: > > What should I look for on this '81 300TD? the guy said it has one... my '81 300D didn't... but I think the 300TDs got 'em earlier... we'll see... no turbo, no sale. ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:49:15 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: glow plugs just taking the plug out and reinstalling it (or pretty much any electrical component/connector will make it work better. oxidation builds up on connectors. typically galvanic corrosion caused by dissimilar metals or just exposure to the elements. could have been a weak part too... hard to say. :) john At 05:10 PM 1/9/2003 -0800, Greg Fiorentino wrote: >John: > >What about the "proof of the pudding" test...that the car started >significantly better after replacing the allegedly off-spec plugs. I am >real big on such practical tests. Your point that the heat significantly >changes the resistance is well taken though. The factory manual has some >pretty graphs that show this effect. > >BTW I replaced my preglow relay in the '84 turbo with a new one last night >and it starts up better than ever. > >Greg > >At 09:45 PM 1/8/03 , john wrote: >>what kind of meter are you using? Do you have a miliohm meter? >> >>While your math is impecible, >>I find it slightly difficult to believe that you're getting accurate >>readings with a handheld meter. The test of a glow plug is if >>it has resistance/continuity over what the exact value is. Each one >>of these devices will vary, they are not precision devices. The >>fact that they're reading low resistance is great. But a 9v battery, >>or a pack of AA's in your meter is not likely to produce a consistent >>power source for something like a heating element. >> >>Besides the inability of an ohm meter to provide the current needed >>to heat the device, the thermal characteristics of the glow plugs >>will also change their resistance. >> >>Two valid tests are what I know for a glow plug. Simple resistance >>like you did. If it's not open, it's usually good. :) Second test >>is to attach it to power and watch it heat up. Not recommended for >>a few reasons... safety is one, second it's not good for the plug >>as it's exposed to an open environment and subjected to abnormal >>thermal stresses... not to mention it'll blister yer pinkies in a heartbeat. >> >>;) >> >>The other issue with glow plugs is good connection to the block and >>to the input connection... clean connections make a big difference. >> >>While you're theory is simple as PIE, it's not testing under true >>operating conditions... ;) >> >>Ohm outta here... ;) >>john >> >>At 04:59 AM 1/9/2003 +0000, diesel-benz-digest wrote: >>>Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 19:51:47 -0800 >>>From: "Derickam AA" >>>Subject: Re: Glow plug measure >>>Greg, >>>Yep it does using the formula for ohms law to clarify. >>>I = E/R >>>I = Current in Amps >>>E = Volts DC in Volts (we will use 12 VDC) >>>R = Resistance in Ohms >>>Glow plug resistance: >>>.5 ohm gives 24 amps to the glow plug or 288 watts of power(980 BTU) >>>.6 ohm gives 20 amps to the glow plug or 240 watts of power(816 BTU) >>>1 ohm gives 12 amps to the glow plug or 144 watts of power(490 BTU) >>>So from .5 ohm to 1 ohm you lose roughly half of your glow heat. >>>BTUs are in BTU per hour. Also note total current draw is the above number >>>times the number of cylinders ( .5 ohms 24amps (x4 cylinders) = 96 amps) >>>this explains the need for a hefty battery. >>>I am at the end of the day if I am incorrect on the numbers please let me >>>know. >>>Regards, >>>Derick Amburgey >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >> http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ >> Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >> jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >>------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Greg Fiorentino >gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #857 *********************************