From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #937 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Friday, March 21 2003 Volume 01 : Number 937 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: pressure washing... Re: 190D Re: 240 trannys 300d vs 190d Re: pressure washing... Re: 190D Re: 300d vs 190d Re: 190D Re: 300d vs 190d Re: 190D Used cars Re: 190D Re: Used cars Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 02:42:35 -0500 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: pressure washing... IMPRESSIVE!!!!!!!!! R. On Friday, March 21, 2003, at 02:35 AM, john wrote: > amazing how much better these things look after you remove several > years of the Pacific Northwest from them. :) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6146&item= > 2407883183&rd=1 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2407889897 > > john > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 23:44:27 -0800 From: "Derickam AA" Subject: Re: 190D Kevin, Tranny problems are very expensive on this car if you do not repair them yourself. DIY repair $450 to $1500. Shop Repair $3000-$3500 (up here on the Kitsap Peninsula). If the tranny "bucks" excessively, Run, put your wallet in your front pocket and run. Engine mounts should be easy to check, they are rubber pads bolted to the cross member if the rubbers are cracked, not good. This repair is easy though. Located on the driver side, attached to the cross member, is a small engine shock, check to see if that is attached. This is easier if you go under the car, assuming this car does not have the sound proofing panels still on it. If this is the case, I recommend you pay the 75-100 bucks and have a wrench check it out. This car is inexpensive (and easy) to fix but only if YOU do the work. The fact that it has 2 separate keys is good. That means the tumbler has already been replaced, this is a good thing, assuming they replaced it with a new one. I would not compromise your taste in cars though, I love my 190d's all three of them with their quirks and all. In my experience once the niggles are worked out of the car they go and go and go. You have to like this car, else you will be selling it in short order. It's purpose in life is a safe, reliable, economic commuter car. If this is what you are looking for you will love it. It is a real pig in acceleration though, seems like parked cars move faster..... Once you get up to speed your great, you can maneuver on the highway, suspension is outstanding and you will love it at the pump. (my best mileage is 40 mpg on my 5 speed, 38 on my auto) I feel "kind of guilty" for encouraging John to get his 190D, but I think once he gets the demons out he will like the little popper. Make sure you add $1500 to the price for repairs you will have to make in the first 6 months and you should be fine. I do not want to scare you away from the car (and do NOT tell me where it is ;) ). Just being real. My opinion of the car is biased, because I have rebuilt two of them and know 201/601 pretty well, in other words the learning curve is flat. I am hoping to keep the cars going till I retire at 55. I am now 38 and I see no reason (other than parts) that they will not make it. Anyhow good luck. If you do get it I will try to help as much as I can given my schedule. Derick Amburgey Automated Control Specialist Port Of Seattle/SeaTac Airport/Satellite Train System Amateur Radio Callsign: K7DXX List "Mom" of Diesel-Benz reflector 1985 Mercedes 190D "Tuti" 280,000 Mi 1985 Mercedes 190D "Red" 175,000 Mi 1984 Mercedes 190D "Charity" 160,000 Mi _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 01:50:41 -0600 From: Jon Filina Subject: Re: 240 trannys Paul wrote: >I notice in the shop manual they list a 5-speed manual tranny as an optional >MBZ-Dsl transmission. Did these ever come on the 240? Will it fit in a >123/240D? It would be nice to have an overdrive, or closer ratio shifting. > The 5 speed may have been an European option, but the US versions were either 4 speeds or automatics. When I owned "Mathilde", I would have loved a 5th gear to keep the noise down on the highway. Jon '84 300SD "Bruno" I'd kill for a stick shift in this hot rod! '81 240D "Mathilde" RIP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 02:51:30 -0500 From: Robert Chase Subject: 300d vs 190d hmmmm, what are the differences? does the 300d have the same ignition switch problem as the 190? R. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 23:51:48 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: pressure washing... At 02:42 AM 3/21/2003 -0500, Robert Chase wrote: >IMPRESSIVE!!!!!!!!! >R. yeah... world of difference ain't it? :) see, I knew under all that green stuff were nice rigs, never doubted it for a second... problem is others can't see it... But that's why I've been mostly lucky buying old Jeeps and trucks. I can see what's under the green stuff... usually, see: http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/jeepmold.jpg This is where I came up with the slogan: Snohomish, Washington, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ;) When I cleaned off the green stuff, however, I had a rusty '53 Willys wagon with bad black paint underneath... ;) john >On Friday, March 21, 2003, at 02:35 AM, john wrote: >>amazing how much better these things look after you remove several >>years of the Pacific Northwest from them. :) >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6146&item= >>2407883183&rd=1 >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2407889897 >> >>john >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >> http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ >> Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >> jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >>------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 00:00:04 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: 190D On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:44:27PM -0800, Derickam AA wrote: > Tranny problems are very expensive on this car if you do not repair them > yourself. DIY repair $450 to $1500. Shop Repair $3000-$3500 (up here on > the Kitsap Peninsula). Good to know. > If the tranny "bucks" excessively, Run, put your wallet in your front > pocket and run. Engine mounts should be easy to check, they are rubber pads > bolted to the cross member if the rubbers are cracked, not good. This > repair is easy though. Located on the driver side, attached to the cross > member, is a small engine shock, check to see if that is attached. This is > easier if you go under the car, assuming this car does not have the sound > proofing panels still on it. If this is the case, I recommend you pay the > 75-100 bucks and have a wrench check it out. How excessively is excessively? I mean, I'm used to a car that you can literally watch the pushbumper drop a half inch to an inch when it goes from overdrive, torque converter locked to direct drive, torque converter unlocked. The first few times it did it, I looked in the rear view to make sure I wasn't leaving bits of Ford AOD all over the highway. > This car is inexpensive (and easy) to fix but only if YOU do the work. The > fact that it has 2 separate keys is good. That means the tumbler has > already been replaced, this is a good thing, assuming they replaced it with > a new one. That was the assumption I was making, and given the price I heard from John for the repair, I was somewhat happy to hear that. > I would not compromise your taste in cars though, I love my 190d's all > three of them with their quirks and all. In my experience once the niggles > are worked out of the car they go and go and go. You have to like this car, > else you will be selling it in short order. It's purpose in life is a safe, > reliable, economic commuter car. If this is what you are looking for you > will love it. It is a real pig in acceleration though, seems like parked > cars move faster..... Once you get up to speed your great, you can maneuver > on the highway, suspension is outstanding and you will love it at the pump. > (my best mileage is 40 mpg on my 5 speed, 38 on my auto) The mileage is certainly what got me to make a second look at the car. I was going to keep my eyes open for an old SD, but if I tripped over a 4 spd 240D, I'd have a look. This one just randomly popped up, and I was gonna just pass on it, until I heard what kind of mileage to expect. I figure I have another four to five months left in the crown vic if I drive her daily until it croaks. It was used in police service (rather hardly, judging by the steering linkage parts I've had to replace), and it currently uses about a quart and a half through the valve guides between oil changes. It has 186k on it now, and I bought it in august with 158k. I figured I better start looking now, so I have a reliable backup to fall back on while I'm sorting the car out. The price of a tranny rebuild for an EAOD is around $1700, the valve job is around $800 if I do the work (OHC engine, woo.), and I could get another one from an auction for $2300, so it doesn't seem overly worth it for this one. Not really sure if I'll like the size or not, a test drive will tell me that. > I feel "kind of guilty" for encouraging John to get his 190D, but I think > once he gets the demons out he will like the little popper. hehehe. It's a solid car. Every used car you buy is being sold for a reason. If there was nothing wrong with it, it wouldn't be for sale. > Make sure you add $1500 to the price for repairs you will have to make in > the first 6 months and you should be fine. I do not want to scare you away > from the car (and do NOT tell me where it is ;) ). Just being real. My > opinion of the car is biased, because I have rebuilt two of them and know > 201/601 pretty well, in other words the learning curve is flat. I am hoping > to keep the cars going till I retire at 55. I am now 38 and I see no reason > (other than parts) that they will not make it. Yup, I know the $1500 rule, and if I didn't remember it, watching John go through the sorting out of a 190D with 200k on it (which is roughly what this one has, 195k I think). I'm handy enough with a wrench and an american diesel, so hopefully I can deal with most of its issues myself. > Anyhow good luck. If you do get it I will try to help as much as I can > given my schedule. I greatly appreciate the offer, whether I get the car or not. K ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 00:04:15 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: 300d vs 190d At 02:51 AM 3/21/2003 -0500, Robert Chase wrote: >hmmmm, > >what are the differences? does the 300d have the same ignition switch >problem as the 190? >R. no. the 300d is on the 123 chassis. larger vehicle. the 190D is on the 201 chassis, smaller, newer design... better climate control system! harder to work on because it's more compact. parts seem to be available and about the same as the 123, guess a lot of 201's were built. a good thing. john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 00:08:14 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: 190D At 11:44 PM 3/20/2003 -0800, Derickam AA wrote: >I feel "kind of guilty" for encouraging John to get his 190D, but I think >once he gets the demons out he will like the little popper. as long as it's running it's great... I'm not going to think about how much I've spent at this point... I've crossed the point of no return on this one... it's a keeper... ;) can't afford to go backwards on it and no one will pay what I'm into it now. :) with fuel prices where they're at, no regular job and even higher fuel prices expected... I'm sure it'll be ok... Thanx for the vote of confidence on it Derick. I'm looking forward to getting the bugs out and it all dialed in... john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 03:09:33 -0500 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: 300d vs 190d I was wondering, The 190 and the 300 in later vintages seem to be almost the same car with the exception of the longer tail section of the 300. The interior is almost completely different though. I would consider a 300d if I could find one. I saw a 300E the other day that had 400K+ on it. Thanks for the info though..... My MBZ addiction started in the test drive of a 190E. I could not believe how large such a small car felt. R. On Friday, March 21, 2003, at 03:04 AM, john wrote: > At 02:51 AM 3/21/2003 -0500, Robert Chase wrote: >> hmmmm, >> >> what are the differences? does the 300d have the same ignition switch >> problem as the 190? >> R. > > no. > > the 300d is on the 123 chassis. larger vehicle. > > the 190D is on the 201 chassis, smaller, newer design... better > climate control system! harder to work on because it's more compact. > parts seem to be available and about the same as the 123, guess > a lot of 201's were built. a good thing. > > john > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 00:11:46 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: 190D At 12:00 AM 3/21/2003 -0800, Kevin Pekarek wrote: > > I feel "kind of guilty" for encouraging John to get his 190D, but I think > > once he gets the demons out he will like the little popper. > >hehehe. It's a solid car. Every used car you buy is being sold for a reason. >If there was nothing wrong with it, it wouldn't be for sale. not always true... the previous owner died... the car was given to his daughter and it basically sat for a year... THAT's where all the problems started. Any car, especially a Benz, that sits has trouble. Minor stuff usually, but still annoying. I'm 80% through the ugly part... nah, maybe even 90%... seat, fuel gauge, some clunking sounds... lights... we're close... rear door outside latch... otherwise it's doing quite well. :) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 03:23:01 -0500 From: Robert Chase Subject: Used cars "Every used car you buy is being sold for a reason. If there was nothing wrong with it, it wouldn't be for sale." Hmmmm a little cynical eh? Some people "upgrade" while others just don't like the cars they buy. Cars age they break we repair them. The alternative is the new car market where you can buy a brand new car that is guaranteed to have negative equity on your loan and break as much as any other car. Every penny I sink into my 300SD is another penny I don't have to spend on car payments, interest rates or lining some greedy car dealers pockets with money. R. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 01:37:48 -0800 From: "DerickAA" Subject: Re: 190D Kevin wrote: How excessively is excessively? I mean, I'm used to a car that you can literally watch the pushbumper drop a half inch to an inch when it goes from overdrive, torque converter locked to direct drive, torque converter unlocked. The first few times it did it, I looked in the rear view to make sure I wasn't leaving bits of Ford AOD all over the highway. Kevin, I have experienced two 190 Automatics fail (one of mine and a co-workers) and this is what I have observed. "Bucking like a horse" between gears. Now a 190 will bump while shifting while it is cold and this is normal. If you find that your head is whiplashing ever so gently the tranny is broadcasting it's demise. Second failure is slipping, this can be detected if the tranny doesn't "bump" while shifting while it is cold. The shift between 2 and 3 takes too long (.75 to 1 second and gets worse). During the first failure the car locked itself into second gear and allowed me to get home. My co-workers car died 3 tens of a mile from his home. We were both lucky in that regard. (oh yeah I do have AAA ;) ). The good news is these were the original tranny's and both cars had over 225,000 miles on them. Mine was neglected (Filter clogged fluid brown). He never tried to figure it out and just replaced it. (he has since rebuilt his and has a spare, a skill I am trying to learn) I do recommend highly the 5 speed model it is a real kick in the pants! :) Somedays are made for automatics though, that is why I have both. ;) Derick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:25:11 -0300 From: Renaud OLGIATI Subject: Re: Used cars My mailbox was recently graced by a missive from Robert Chase : > "Every used car you buy is being sold for a reason. > If there was nothing wrong with it, it wouldn't be for sale." > Hmmmm a little cynical eh? Depends on what is "wrong" with it: in the case of the 123 I bought a year ago, the only thing "wrong" was the high cost of shipping it from Paraguay to Europe, as the previous (and only) owner was moving. Not really "wrong", is it ? Cheers, Ron - -- There is a basic mental weakness evidenced by anyone who would blame a tool for the foibles of its wielder. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #937 *********************************