From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #938 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Friday, March 21 2003 Volume 01 : Number 938 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: 190D Re: 190D Re: Ludwig lives! Re: Ludwig lives! RE: Used cars Re: 300d vs 190d (long) Re: Used cars RE: Used cars Re: 240 trannys RE: 300d vs 190d (long) - excellent RE: Used cars Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 07:14:16 -0500 From: Michael Frank Subject: Re: 190D I bought my car a few weeks ago, and I'm still learning my way around. One mistake I made was to not test the A/C system....it's been mighty cold here, and I just overlooked it. Turns out it needs a compressor...list price of the compressor is $600....luckily I was able to call in a favor to get one for dealer cost ($240). While checking through that problem, I priced out a few other "key" components....the push button unit is around $500, and there are a few other equally expensive bits. Fortunately, I only need the compressor (and a drier). So the moral is, make sure the heat and A/C work. Otherwise, it's a really neat little car...I would almost say fast. I haven't even had it long enough to be sure of the mileage...looks to be about 40MPG. Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 2003 08:49:44 -0500 From: "Gary, Orlando" Subject: Re: 190D Kevin, I just love my '86 MB 190D 2.5! I considered mine really rough when I got it Here are some things to check out... - -Look at the lifting pads for rust. - -Look under the rear window rubber, especially between the window and trunk for rust. - -All mercedes' shift sloppily in my opinion. But before writing it off, check this web site, under "Mercedes Transmissions" and ask the owner if you can tweak the vacuum and shift cable systems. It made a world of difference on my car. Now it shifts somewhat respectfully. http://business.baylor.edu/Richard_Easley/autofaqs/main.htm My tranny leaked(not a stream, just heavy dripping) trans oil when I first brought it home. The PO didn't drive it often. I feared having to pull it to replace the front seal. However, putting a pint of Lucas 'Trans-Fix"(seal conditioner) and driving it every day, the leaking has stopped. My car has 180Kmi. Also, since the car has over 100,000mi, the B2 piston shouldn't be an issue. Also read the forums at Rusty's site... http://www.mbz.org/info/articles/ After driving VW diesels for years, getting quality MB parts are not much more expensive. Generally, stay clear of the Dealerships. Get your new parts from Rusty, and used stuff from the 'yards. Do your own work. Basically, just shop around. Still, it is a dependable daily driver. Just shuttling the kidlets to school two miles away every day gets me 32mpg. A recent trip from Orlando to Jacksonville got me 40. I wish it had better acceleration, but I think it would beat my Quantum TurboDiesel from 25mph on. I'm exploring propane fumigation at the moment. Good Luck! - -Gary, Orlando 1986 MB 190D 2.5 On Fri, 2003-03-21 at 02:07, Kevin Pekarek wrote: > > He also mentioned the tranny tended to shift a little rough. Don't know whether > he means slip-shift like a few 123s I've driven did, or what. He mentioned he > thought it might be motor mount related (!), I'll just have to drive it and > see what I think. I don't generally like cars this small, but the w123s I've > driven (even a really worn out one) all felt more solid than my 4700 lb crown > victoria. That, and I don't have to worry about getting rear ended and having > my trunk explode (damn fords). > > Since I've never actually driven a 190, gas or diesel, is there anything I > should be checking for? I know to be wary of a benz that appears to be a good > deal, so I'm gonna be careful with this one. From the sounds of it, it sounds > like the price is down because of the quarter panel damage and the interior > issues. > > Thanks in advance... > > K > > -- > Kevin Pekarek > Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and > Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:23:06 -0500 From: "Jim Hoffman" Subject: Re: Ludwig lives! ROFLMAO!!!! Kevin, You've made my day!! :) Jim/ > um, no. the absolute crappiest handling post 1960 benz will easily outhandle > the best handling fsj. > > fsjs have straight axles and leaf springs at all four corners. They have soft > springs and high centers of gravity. > > when you take a benz up to 100 mph, it feels like fun. When you take a fsj up > to 100 mph, you see god. > > when you take a benz through the twisties, it feels like fun. When you take a > fsj through the twisties, you hold on for dear life to the steering wheel > and wonder why you didn't drive your benz on the road instead. > > when you nail the brakes in a benz, you stop so hard and so fast that your > dental work comes out and hits the windshield. when you hit the brakes in a > fsj, you thank god you're not driving one of the older ones with manual drums > at the corners, and eventually, when it is convenient for the truck to do so, > you come to a stop. Then the smell of burnt oil from the factory jeep leaky > rear main seal dripping oil on your exhaust y-pipe catches up with you, and > reminds you that you are definately in a fsj. > > If you want to offroad in a benz, get a unimog or a G-glass. If you want to > offroad in a jeep, get a jeep. If you want to blast down a windy road in a jeep, > have your head examined. > > K > > -- > Kevin Pekarek > Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and > Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) > 74 Cherokee 2 door (258 1bbl, T15, D20, open 3.54 d44's) > 77 Cherokee 4 door S (401 4bbl, TH400, BW QT, open 3.54 d44's) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:15:40 -0500 From: "Jim Steere" Subject: Re: Ludwig lives! Try going from one of my Benzes to my (hideously overpowered MPFI Ford V6) Suzuki Samurai. Requires a major change of driving style and ride comfort expectations..... Jim Steere Everything Automotive Crystal, MI www.usedbenzparts.com > ROFLMAO!!!! Kevin, You've made my day!! :) > > Jim/ > > > um, no. the absolute crappiest handling post 1960 benz will easily > outhandle > > the best handling fsj. > > > > fsjs have straight axles and leaf springs at all four corners. They > have soft > > springs and high centers of gravity. > > > > when you take a benz up to 100 mph, it feels like fun. When you take a > fsj up > > to 100 mph, you see god. > > > > when you take a benz through the twisties, it feels like fun. When you > take a > > fsj through the twisties, you hold on for dear life to the steering > wheel > > and wonder why you didn't drive your benz on the road instead. > > > > when you nail the brakes in a benz, you stop so hard and so fast that > your > > dental work comes out and hits the windshield. when you hit the brakes > in a > > fsj, you thank god you're not driving one of the older ones with > manual drums > > at the corners, and eventually, when it is convenient for the truck to > do so, > > you come to a stop. Then the smell of burnt oil from the factory jeep > leaky > > rear main seal dripping oil on your exhaust y-pipe catches up with > you, and > > reminds you that you are definately in a fsj. > > > > If you want to offroad in a benz, get a unimog or a G-glass. If you > want to > > offroad in a jeep, get a jeep. If you want to blast down a windy road > in a jeep, > > have your head examined. > > > > K > > > > -- > > Kevin Pekarek > > Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and > > Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) > > 74 Cherokee 2 door (258 1bbl, T15, D20, open 3.54 d44's) > > 77 Cherokee 4 door S (401 4bbl, TH400, BW QT, open 3.54 d44's) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:35:30 -0500 From: "Aimino, Michael" Subject: RE: Used cars Random thoughts on this, in no particular order: * New cars have problems, too. I won't buy new anymore assuming that I'm getting a problem-free ride. My experience has taught me otherwise. * People sell used cars for many reasons other than the car having a problem. I have a salesman friend who sells his car every other year because he feel he needs to maintain an image. His cars are low miles, low wear and would be an excellent buy. * I can run a report from Quicken and prove to anyone, in dollars and cents, that my used car cost me less, over any time period you want to measure, than my new cars. Factor in depreciation, interest, taxes, and you're way ahead. I bought a 1981 VW Rabbit diesel 4 years ago for $350. Total lifetime repairs were ~ $1500. I put over 50k miles on that car and sold it for $100. Show me a new car I can buy for $1750 (in the last 20 years) that'll go 50k miles and I'll buy it. Of course, I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, but I get this argument all the time from people who love to give all their $$$ to various banks and S&Ls. _______________ "Every used car you buy is being sold for a reason. If there was nothing wrong with it, it wouldn't be for sale." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:03:52 US/Central From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: Re: 300d vs 190d (long) > I was wondering, > > The 190 and the 300 in later vintages seem to be almost the same car > with the exception of the longer tail section of the 300. The interior > is almost completely different though. I would consider a 300d if I > could find one. I saw a 300E the other day that had 400K+ on it. > > Thanks for the info though..... My MBZ addiction started in the test > drive of a 190E. I could not believe how large such a small car felt. > > R. > > >> > >> what are the differences? does the 300d have the same ignition switch > >> problem as the 190? > >> R. > > First off, MB used basically the same ignition switch for a long time. In every 80's model that I am aware of, if your ignition starts to become finicky about unlocking, replace it FAST. Now to the 190/300 issue. (All years stated apply to US models.) Up through 1985, the 300D was the rounder W123 chassis. It used the less-modern but easy to maintain and pretty much bulletproof 5 cylinder diesel motor. From about 1981 forward, all 300 diesels in the US were turbocharged (also applies to 300TD mid-sized wagon and 300SD large sedan). In this body style, there was never a gas engined 300E model. The gas 6 was the 280E, and I think they stopped selling those here around 82. This chassis/body was also offered here with the 4 cylinder diesel as the 240D. The 190 appeared in the US around 1984 with the new angular body style. It was available with gas and diesel motors as the 190E and 190D, respectively. I think all US models of the 190 included another number in the model name to indicate motor size, hence "190E 2.3" and "190D 2.2". This is the W201 chassis. These were soon offered with a 2.6 liter 6 cylinder gas as the 190E 2.6. I think only 4 cylinder diesel motors were used in this car in the US. 1986 saw the US introduction of the W124 chassis 300E. While similar to the W201 chassis 190, this car is bigger in all respects. It continues the family look of the time, and it uses a version of the wonderful 5-link independent rear suspension introduced on the smaller 190. The 300E used a 3.0 liter 6 cylinder SOHC gas engine that's actually very nice, and peppier than its 177hp rating suggests. (I have this M103 motor in my 89 300CE coupe.) The 300D (D for diesel, as opposed to E for einspritzun (sp?) or "fuel injection") was the diesel powered W124. At US introduction in 86, they used a new 6 cylinder 3.0 liter diesel that was more powerful than the old OM617 5 cylinder, but a little less supportive of the shade tree mechanic and a little less robust if the motor overheated badly, since (I think) it now used an alloy head instead of cast iron.) I've owned 2 W123 diesel sedans and my current W124 gas coupe. I have not owned the smaller W201. The mid-sized W123 and W124 are both incredible series of cars. The older W123 is a little easier to work on, but they are older, so more parts may be reaching time for replacement. The newer W124 is a much more exciting driver, but it has more computers, electronics, and plastic. Since the W124s were essentially upsized W201s, I would expect a 190 to be very much like an 86+ 300E or 300D. Engines and transmissions between the two series were often either the same or very closely related. MB basically only offered four series of cars in the US at the time: the small W201, the mid-sized W124, the large W126, and the R127 "SL" roadsters. Some series offered coupes or wagons, but it was basically just the four cars with different motors. They tended to engineer components very well, then use that design on every car. Moral of this ridiculously long post: A 190 should be similar in driving style and reliability to the angular 300 series, just a little smaller and with smaller motors. Many problems and plusses are common between the two series, and even many parts and repairs are quite similar. But you can only get the glorious 5 cylinder OM617 3 liter turbodiesel in the older W123 cars. (Even in the large W126 sedan body, they switched to the newer 6 cylinder diesel motor in 86.) More than you wanted to know, but there it is. Regards, Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 155K as of yesterday, so I need to visit my dealer and get my 250,000 kilometer grill badge ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 11:12:20 -0500 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: Used cars On Friday, March 21, 2003, at 10:35 AM, Aimino, Michael wrote: > Random thoughts on this, in no particular order: > > * New cars have problems, too. I won't buy new anymore assuming that I'm > getting a problem-free ride. My experience has taught me otherwise. Agreed. My 2002 Honda Accord has been in the shop more than my diesel benz. The Volvo S70 I owned before that was maddening the way it constantly broke. > > * People sell used cars for many reasons other than the car having a > problem. > I have a salesman friend who sells his car every other year because he > feel he > needs to maintain an image. His cars are low miles, low wear and would > be an > excellent buy. Yep. If you have money to burn why not burn it up on depreciation on a new car. > > * I can run a report from Quicken and prove to anyone, in dollars and > cents, > that my used car cost me less, over any time period you want to > measure, than > my new cars. Factor in depreciation, interest, taxes, and you're way > ahead. I > bought a 1981 VW Rabbit diesel 4 years ago for $350. Total lifetime > repairs > were ~ $1500. I put over 50k miles on that car and sold it for $100. > Show me a > new car I can buy for $1750 (in the last 20 years) that'll go 50k miles > and > I'll buy it. > Heh heh... I got BURNED on my Volvo. Drove it 25k miles and lost $10k in resale value. That of course does not include the infamous service visits one of which ran me $700, nor interest nor insurance costs. The reason I bought a new car in the first place was due to the fact I did not want to "pay" for repairs. Even with a warranty you end up paying one way or another. We should consider ourselves lucky though. We know the best kept secret on the used car market. We get to drive some of the nicest cars in the world and pay very little to own and maintain them. > Of course, I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, but I get this > argument all > the time from people who love to give all their $$$ to various banks and > S&Ls. > > "Every used car you buy is being sold for a reason. > If there was nothing wrong with it, it wouldn't be for sale." Perhaps this is true. Could the reason be "STUPIDITY" ? R. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 11:20:15 -0500 From: "Aimino, Michael" Subject: RE: Used cars LOL. Yeah, that's a factor that I always fail to remember. Their loss, our gain. - -----Original Message----- From: Robert Chase [mailto:beostar-at-sdf.lonestar.org] > "Every used car you buy is being sold for a reason. > If there was nothing wrong with it, it wouldn't be for sale." Perhaps this is true. Could the reason be "STUPIDITY" ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 08:37:42 -0800 From: "Paul Schwartz" Subject: Re: 240 trannys A local wrecking yard claims to have a 240D with a 5-speed in it. It's most likely he's ignorant about what he has, but just in case maybe I should check it out; if true maybe I should buy it and save it for a future project? Paul - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Filina" To: Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:50 PM Subject: Re: 240 trannys > Paul wrote: > > >I notice in the shop manual they list a 5-speed manual tranny as an optional > >MBZ-Dsl transmission. Did these ever come on the 240? Will it fit in a > >123/240D? It would be nice to have an overdrive, or closer ratio shifting. > > > The 5 speed may have been an European option, but the US versions were > either 4 speeds or automatics. > > When I owned "Mathilde", I would have loved a 5th gear to keep the noise > down on the highway. > > Jon > '84 300SD "Bruno" I'd kill for a stick shift in this hot rod! > '81 240D "Mathilde" RIP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 11:03:48 -0600 From: "Black, Waylon" Subject: RE: 300d vs 190d (long) - excellent I always enjoy the emails that shed a little light onto MBs history. Being a prior Chrysler man I NEVER considered anything else(gas or diesel). I 'awakened' in January 02. In addition to my Chrysler 'fleet' I have since added (2) 83 300 SDs, a Volvo 242 turbo, and a VW diesel trucklet. Diesels make more sense to me(in Texas). Emission exempt(inspection is $12.50 vs $42.50, durable(I drive 80-90 miles a workday), plus the wife likes them(super big plus). Oh and if you are close to McKinney, Texas - on 380, about 6 miles west of I-75, diesel is now................$1.49 per gallon. It is at 380 and Custer Rd. Only station around. Waylon -----Original Message----- From: acordova-at-texas.net [mailto:acordova-at-texas.net] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 4:04 AM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: 300d vs 190d (long) > I was wondering, > > The 190 and the 300 in later vintages seem to be almost the same car > with the exception of the longer tail section of the 300. The interior > is almost completely different though. I would consider a 300d if I SNIP More than you wanted to know, but there it is. Regards, Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 155K as of yesterday, so I need to visit my dealer and get my 250,000 kilometer grill badge ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 11:18:00 -0800 From: john Subject: RE: Used cars excellent! What I try to do is buy a troubled used car that no one in their right mind would consider, make the repairs, fix the cosmetic stuff, drive it until I'm tired of it, bored with it, find something better or realize that I need to fix something else soon and decide to switch projects. :) I keep track of what I "invest" and usually sell my used cars for as much, or more then I paid for them initially. Of course if you factor in my time I'm going backwards, but I'm only looking at parts and repairs by others. I can count on one hand the vehicles I've "lost" money on in my life. that's out of 86... http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html I think Ludwig will be one that I "loose" money on if I sell him. I'm way over book value now in parts and purchase price. If the ignition switch hadn't failed and I had troubleshot the injector problem more carefully my repair costs would have been much less. Replacing all the injectors and filters was just something I prefer to do on an older Diesel anyway... give me a solid baseline to work from. :) I also fixed things that could have been left unrepaired, like the radio antenna.... it worked, it just didn't go up and down. ;) Used cars aren't a problem, they're a way of life. :) I've never owned a new vehicle. I've been very fortunate to find a used vehicle that would have been what I would have ordered. So, like I've said before... Someone out there is taking care of my "new" car for me... ;) BTW, the 2.5L Turbo Diesel 190D does sound interesting... :) john At 10:35 AM 3/21/2003 -0500, Aimino, Michael wrote: >Random thoughts on this, in no particular order: > >* New cars have problems, too. I won't buy new anymore assuming that I'm >getting a problem-free ride. My experience has taught me otherwise. > >* People sell used cars for many reasons other than the car having a problem. >I have a salesman friend who sells his car every other year because he feel he >needs to maintain an image. His cars are low miles, low wear and would be an >excellent buy. > >* I can run a report from Quicken and prove to anyone, in dollars and cents, >that my used car cost me less, over any time period you want to measure, than >my new cars. Factor in depreciation, interest, taxes, and you're way ahead. I >bought a 1981 VW Rabbit diesel 4 years ago for $350. Total lifetime repairs >were ~ $1500. I put over 50k miles on that car and sold it for $100. Show me a >new car I can buy for $1750 (in the last 20 years) that'll go 50k miles and >I'll buy it. > >Of course, I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, but I get this argument all >the time from people who love to give all their $$$ to various banks and >S&Ls. > > >_______________ > > >"Every used car you buy is being sold for a reason. >If there was nothing wrong with it, it wouldn't be for sale." - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #938 *********************************