From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #948 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Saturday, March 29 2003 Volume 01 : Number 948 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: 300 D Q's 32 mpg RE: New Grille Re: New Grille Re: QUIT while running Re: 300 D Q's Re: What is it? temperature sensors Re: WJ 4.7L info - and other HP/torque info :) Re: 32 mpg Re: 300 D Q's Re: 32 mpg Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 18:49:13 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: 300 D Q's At 05:28 PM 3/28/2003 -0800, Greg Fiorentino wrote: >I guess you all know that the timing chain on these engines should be >replaced BEFORE it breaks or slips. If not, the pistons and valves can do >ugly things to each other. referred to as an "interference motor". Timing chains rarely break, and plenty of advance warning is given... but timing belts worry me. What moron decided to use a belt instead of a chain? On american iron you never have to mess with a timing chain... of course most american iron doesn't usually see 200k without troubles... (except of course the 4.0L used in Jeeps. ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 18:51:20 -0800 From: john Subject: 32 mpg looks like Ludwig is doing better... still not good. Just filled up, 32 mpg... Makes a difference when #4 isn't squirting Diesel all over the engine compartment I guess. ;) Drove up I-5 to Mt.Vernon, down to Seattle and back home, 80% of this last tank was freeway mileage... rated at 33/44. Monday we install the new timing chain, hoses, etc. Have all the parts and ready to go... john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 22:01:45 -0600 From: "Richard Arnold" Subject: RE: New Grille R: $39.00 seems reasonable for a 126 grill insert. Admittedly, I'm ignorant on this issue (others as well). Mine has some chips in it and the gray color is decidedly flat. For $39 and the time to replace, I would be interested. Where did you get yours? Thanks, RAA - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Robert Chase Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 5:21 PM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: New Grille Put in my new grille today was a pretty easy project which involved the removal of the outer grille metal and pulling out my old broken plastic. Not only did it remove a couple of chips in the grille but it completely renewed the appearance of the front of the car. Very much worth the $39 it cost for the part. FYI R. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:09:08 -0500 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: New Grille Hey, Got it at www.mercedessource.com he has others as well in case you don't have a w126. Ships instructions with it and its an easy job. The only thing that I would mention that might be a little "awkward" is the two outer bolts that hold on the grille. They are recessed inside a piece of the hood reinforcement. They are hard to see and require a pretty long extension to get to. Once you get them out its smooth sailing from there. The only other "awkward part" is when you have all the screws out and the grille wont come off. You will think that there are more that you just cant see. Just another "layer" of Mercedes quality you have to get through.... The grille has a rubber seal that its stuck to it and the hood. Work one side loose by gradually pulling it and the grille will come off. The plastic change is easy. The plastic is held in with a screw a bolt and some clips. Re assembly is easy. You can sit on the engine compartment if your careful (be careful of that notoriously brittle behr radiator neck otherwise you will be doing some cooling repairs as well!). If you want to work on your lower abs you can just stand backwards and lean your head under the grille and hold yourself up while working on securing the grille. Feel the burn . Once its replaced its a major difference. The only thing that "bugs me" is that its not an OEM part. Its an Italian made reproduction. It looks really good and the only way you can tell on my car its not the original grille is the space they leave for the pull tab on some of the newer cars. My car has the old dual point hood release. But the positive thing is in another 80-90k miles it will have cracks and chips in it and that will be about the time for a paint job too :) so Ill probably have a lot of the exterior plastics renewed then. I don't think anybody would notice it was not an OEM grille just by looking unless you told them and showed them the difference. Now the only thing I have to find is an insert for my bumper that covers the tow hook. Then my car will be almost perfect in the front. Robert. On Friday, March 28, 2003, at 11:01 PM, Richard Arnold wrote: > R: > $39.00 seems reasonable for a 126 grill insert. Admittedly, I'm > ignorant on this issue (others as well). Mine has some chips in it and > the gray color is decidedly flat. For $39 and the time to replace, I > would be interested. Where did you get yours? > > Thanks, > RAA > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] > On Behalf Of Robert Chase > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 5:21 PM > To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: New Grille > > Put in my new grille today was a pretty easy project which involved the > removal of the outer grille metal and pulling out my old broken > plastic. Not only did it remove a couple of chips in the grille but it > completely renewed the appearance of the front of the car. Very much > worth the $39 it cost for the part. > > FYI > > R. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:10:13 EST From: Thrushpres-at-aol.com Subject: Re: QUIT while running Probvably fuel related- change or check main filter and pre(clear) filter for black microbes. Air in system from air leaking primer hand pump can cause a no start but ? a stall out when running. Unless compression massively lost from failure or run out of oil and siezed I'd guess fuel ( smell the filler- could by a "gas job") Tom Thrush Denver CO ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 01:31:13 -0600 From: Jon Filina Subject: Re: 300 D Q's Waylon asked: >Going to look at another high mileage(390K) 1981 300 D. Car quit while >driving and will not restart. Any ideas of what to look for/check other than >no fuel and/or timing chain? Guy is not a mechanic and does not want to pay >to hav it fixed - hoping to get it cheap > Provided the car died as the owner says it did, I'd bet ya that the plastic fuel filter is BLACK. Take one with you. It's possible that the fuel tank is filled with algae, but the plastic filter would still be black. Jon '84 300SD 155,500 mi. "Bruno" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 01:46:32 -0600 From: Jon Filina Subject: Re: What is it? Paul scratched his head and wrote: >BTW--on the top of the thermostat housing is some kind of sensor and the >wire fell off (broke). What is this sensor, is it the temperature sensor? >I suppose I'll know tomorrow when the gauge doesn't work. > As you've probably found out, your temperature gauge either doesn't move or is pegged. That wire should be the one coming from the sensor to the gauge. I don't remember the layout on my 240D, but my 300SD should be the same. The temp sensor sits on the thermostat housing on the passenger's side of the valve cover. It is a single pin plug with a wire, it looks like 8 gauge, that runs over the valve cover and into a harness. On my SD, the plastic wiring case has become brittle and fallen off in sections resulting in erratic temp readings on the gauge. I've taped the wire, which helps somewhat, but really should replace it. Jon '84 300SD 155,500 mi. "Bruno" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 08:59:53 -0500 From: "Steve Morelen" Subject: temperature sensors I have a '84 300D and there are 2 coolant temperature sensors that I know of: (1) in the engine coolant exit (thremo housing) for cabin heater lockout (for temp < 40 deg C.) (1) for temperature guage..located in the driver's side of the cylinder head between 2 of the glow plugs Steve Morelen >From: Jon Filina >To: Paul Schwartz >CC: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >Subject: Re: What is it? >Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 01:46:32 -0600 > >Paul scratched his head and wrote: > >>BTW--on the top of the thermostat housing is some kind of sensor and the >>wire fell off (broke). What is this sensor, is it the temperature sensor? >>I suppose I'll know tomorrow when the gauge doesn't work. >> > >As you've probably found out, your temperature gauge either doesn't move or >is pegged. That wire should be the one coming from the sensor to the >gauge. > >I don't remember the layout on my 240D, but my 300SD should be the same. >The temp sensor sits on the thermostat housing on the passenger's side of >the valve cover. It is a single pin plug with a wire, it looks like 8 >gauge, that runs over the valve cover and into a harness. On my SD, the >plastic wiring case has become brittle and fallen off in sections resulting >in erratic temp readings on the gauge. I've taped the wire, which helps >somewhat, but really should replace it. > >Jon >'84 300SD 155,500 mi. "Bruno" _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 11:10:52 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: WJ 4.7L info - and other HP/torque info :) At 10:06 AM 3/29/2003 -0800, Jim B wrote: >I had someone try to tell me that the torque rating on the 4.7L was higher >than a 401 yesterday! Before calling him an absolute liar, I decided to >check and see first. (I'll get back to him about it if it's not true ) >Jim Blair, Seattle, WA '84 J10 Black Jack, '86 Comanche 4x4 Jim, ans: 99 - WJ 4.7L - 286 cu in. - 235 hp -at- 4,800 - 295 ft lbs -at- 3,200 <-- WJ 78 - SJ 6.5L - 401 cu in. - 215 hp -at- 4,400 - 320 ft lbs -at- 2,800 <-- SJ (other specs below) Looks like the 401 is the torque winner... but having driven both motors I'd take the 4.7L over the 401 any day, any time, any place. sorry. ;) This is an area of interest to me as I've looked at a suitable transplant for SuperDawg ('83 J10 Stepside). I love Diesels and include those specs for comparison. I can tell you flat out that a '99 WJ with a 4.7L in stock trim will blow the doors off of anything but a modified 401 in an FSJ. Sorry buddy, been in both, in stock trim the 360/401 are not rocket ships. Of course the FSJ outweighs the WJ by around 1,500lbs and is less aerodynamic. I can gather the 0 to 60 specs for comparison if you'd like, but the 4.7L V8 in the WJ is one of the finest V8's I've ever owned or driven. It's silky smooth from idle to redline. It is an amazing motor and if I had the money SuperDawg would probably have a 4.7L instead of a 4.0L. But for economy the 4.0L is an excellent compromise and the best choice. Owners of WJ's with 4.0L's report about 2 mpg more economy. The 4.0L is a long-lived I-6 with excellent torque. I've personally owned three that have had over 200k on the original motor. Other then the rear main seal and a bit of blowby they're excellent motors, I personally feel that the AMC 4.0L is the best motor ever put in a Jeep. The AMC V8's are torque monsters no doubt, but they are, imo, heavy, inefficient, leak vacuum and oil unless meticulously cared for and have a few weak points. Compared to other V8s they just seem outdated to me. The 4.7L V8 would be an awesome candidate for a swap into an FSJ, but you'll have to do a lot of rewiring to get all the computers on board. Not for the gearhead who likes points, carbs and fiddling with internals. I've only got about 70k on this 4.7L so it's hard to say if they'll be as durable in the long run as an AMC V8. I have to sell mine so I'll have to pick up the longevity test when I pick up another one, right after I get another full time job... ;) ENGINE Specs year - engine - HP -at- rpm - torque -at- rpm - -------------------------------------- 83 - J10 4.2L - 115 hp -at- 3,200 - 210 ft lbs -at- 1,800 <-- original 97 - ZJ 4.0L - 185 hp -at- 4,600 - 220 ft lbs -at- 2,400 <-- superdawg transplant 99 - WJ 4.7L - 235 hp -at- 4,800 - 295 ft lbs -at- 3,200 <-- WJ 99 - WJ 4.0L - 195 hp -at- 4,600 - 230 ft lbs -at- 3,000 83 - J10 360V8 - 129 hp -at- 3,700 - 245 ft lbs -at- 1,600 <-- Old Blue 88 - XJ 4.0L - 177 hp -at- 4,500 - 224 ft lbs -at- 2,500 <-- little wagoneer 91 - XJ 4.0L - 190 hp -at- 4,750 - 225 ft lbs -at- 4,000 97 - ZJ 5.2L - 220 hp -at- 4,400 - 300 ft lbs -at- 3,200 78 - SJ 401V8 - 215 hp -at- 4,400 - 320 ft lbs -at- 2,800 <-- 401 V8 88 - GM 6.2L Dsl- 130 hp -at- 3,600 - 240 ft lbs -at- 2,000 GAS V8s 88 - GM 350V8-FI- 210 hp -at- 4,000 - 300 ft lbs -at- 2,800 89 - Ford 302-FI- 185 hp -at- 3,400 - 270 ft lbs -at- 2,400 Mercedes Diesels - -------------------------------- 85 - 190D 2.2L - 72 hp -at- 4,200 - 96 ft lbs -at- 2,800 (normally aspirated) <-- ludwig 83 - 240D 2.4L - 72 hp -at- 4,400 - 97 ft lbs -at- 2,400 (normally aspirated) 87 - 190D 2.5L - 123 hp -at- 4,600 - 168 ft lbs -at- 2,400 (TURBO) 81 - 300D 3.0L - 88 hp -at- 4,400 - 126.6 ft lbs -at- 2,400 (normally aspirated) <-- fritz 83 - 300SD 3.0L - 125 hp -at- 4,350 - 170 ft lbs -at- 2,400 (TURBO) - --------------------------------------------- 2.2L = 134.2522 cubic inches 2.4L = 146.457 cubic inches 3.0L = 183.0712 cubic inches 4.7L = 286.8116 cubic inches 4.0L = 244.095 cubic inches 5.899343L = 360 cubic inches 6.571213L = 401 cubic inches - ------------------------- SuperDawg: http://wagoneers.com/SuperDawg for sale: 1999 WJ - http://www.wagoneers.com/1999-WJ/ later, john - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://www.billygraham.org/spiritualhelp/steps.asp http://www.helpmewithbiblestudy.org/ http://www.persecution.com/about/index.cfm?action=vom http://www.freegift.net/ - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 11:33:11 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: 32 mpg At 10:57 AM 3/29/2003 -0800, Paul Schwartz pschw-at-earthlink.net wrote: > > Drove up I-5 to Mt.Vernon, down to Seattle and back home, > > 80% of this last tank was freeway mileage... rated at 33/44. > > Monday we install the new timing chain, hoses, etc. Have > > all the parts and ready to go... > >Timing chain is first on my list is major upgrades. Any thoughts on swedging >vs. a clip style master link? >Where would I get one of those swedging tools? >Paul I'd start with a search on Google.com :) I'm hoping the timing chain will improve the economy, but even at 32mpg it's a winner. My wife noticed that Diesel costs 11 cents more then unleaded... gears started turning (she's trying to justify keeping the WJ obviously) and said it costs more for Diesel. So, I did the math. 1.88 1.88 1.97 1.97 cost / gallon 17 14 32 40 mpg 10 10 10 10 gallons 170 140 320 400 miles driven 18.8 18.8 19.7 19.7 cost for 10gal 0.111 0.134 0.062 0.049 cost per mile So, the WJ costs about 13.4 cents per mile in town versus about 6.2 cents per mile in town for the 190D. The XJ runs about 11.1 cents per mile in town (the WJ gets almost 20 on the freeway). Ultimately when the 190D is dialed in, if it gets close to it's official EPA rating, it'll cost less then a nickel a mile to fuel. So, despite the increased costs of Diesel fuel the Diesel still offers better economy. john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 11:36:53 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: 300 D Q's At 11:02 AM 3/29/2003 -0800, Paul Schwartz wrote: > > referred to as an "interference motor". Timing chains rarely break, > > and plenty of advance warning is given... but timing belts worry me. > > What moron decided to use a belt instead of a chain? On american > > iron you never have to mess with a timing chain... of course most > > american iron doesn't usually see 200k without troubles... (except > > of course the 4.0L used in Jeeps. ;) > >Belts are cheaper, quieter, and take far less energy to turn. They really >aren't bad expect for the idiots who decided to turn the water pump with the >cam belt. Water pump goes, engine goes. Planned obsolescence actually, no, it's designed to make sure that folks raised on american iron realize they have to replace the timing belt. I actually prefer that setup. It ensures that the timing belt is replaced, they're also easier to change then the ones embedded behind a cover and hidden from view. I still prefer the timing chain and make it a point to keep my fleet in chains. ;) When I got my first Rabbit Diesel I took it to a shop for something and the guy asked if I'd replaced the timing belt. I said, huh? Wazzthat? Hey, I grew up on american iron, they didn't do things like timing belts in the '60's. ;) >They happened when fuel went over a fifty cents a gallon. Most people don't >think about maintenance when they buy a car. >Paul that explains it... I was trained as a wrench when gas was still about 30 cents a gallon. ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 2003 15:27:56 -0500 From: "Gary, Orlando" Subject: Re: 32 mpg Concerning cost of fuel... Federal tax on diesel is $0.06 more than gas, at $0.24/gal. This is something that we "personal" i.e. non-commercial diesel users need to bitch at the government about... Why a higher tax on diesel? At first glance, one would think..."ok, since most of any industry is powered by diesel, let's tax them more." But don't they have a special "dyed" diesel for commercial users, not counting over-the-road truckers? I imagine most truckers will write this tax off as a business expense. So, in essence, the feds are actually taxing the 'private' consumer more than gas users. What is the proportion of 'private' gas users to 'private' diesel users. It has to be a HUGE number. So, what real benefit do the federallies have by a higher diesel tax? Something to think about. - -Gary in Orlando 1986 MB 190D 2.5 $1.79/ gal at 434 & Colonial Chevron On Sat, 2003-03-29 at 14:33, john wrote: > At 10:57 AM 3/29/2003 -0800, Paul Schwartz pschw-at-earthlink.net wrote: > > > Drove up I-5 to Mt.Vernon, down to Seattle and back home, > > > 80% of this last tank was freeway mileage... rated at 33/44. > > > Monday we install the new timing chain, hoses, etc. Have > > > all the parts and ready to go... > > > >Timing chain is first on my list is major upgrades. Any thoughts on swedging > >vs. a clip style master link? > >Where would I get one of those swedging tools? > >Paul > > I'd start with a search on Google.com :) > > I'm hoping the timing chain will improve the economy, but even at 32mpg > it's a winner. > > My wife noticed that Diesel costs 11 cents more then unleaded... gears > started turning (she's trying to justify keeping the WJ obviously) and > said it costs more for Diesel. > > So, I did the math. > > 1.88 1.88 1.97 1.97 cost / gallon > 17 14 32 40 mpg > 10 10 10 10 gallons > 170 140 320 400 miles driven > 18.8 18.8 19.7 19.7 cost for 10gal > 0.111 0.134 0.062 0.049 cost per mile > > So, the WJ costs about 13.4 cents per mile in town > versus about 6.2 cents per mile in town for the 190D. > The XJ runs about 11.1 cents per mile in town (the WJ > gets almost 20 on the freeway). Ultimately when the > 190D is dialed in, if it gets close to it's official > EPA rating, it'll cost less then a nickel a mile to fuel. > > So, despite the increased costs of Diesel fuel the Diesel > still offers better economy. > > john > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #948 *********************************