From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #958 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, April 9 2003 Volume 01 : Number 958 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: A/C Stuff Re: A/C Stuff Re: A/C Stuff Re: A/C Stuff RE: A/C Stuff Re: A/C Stuff Re: A/C Stuff Re: A/C Stuff Re: A/C Stuff 190D shocks Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 01:57:40 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: A/C Stuff R12. converted two of my systems to R134, about $35 for the kit. Works ok, but we're in a mild climate... ;) R12 is NOT an evil ozone damaging chemical, don't buy the lie, it's just that dupont's patent ran out... R12 is far safer then R134. Don't breath R134, bad stuff... not recommended to breath R12 either, but it won't hurt you. Remember that freon is heavier then air... haven't had any environmentalwhackos yet explain to me how it gets into the stratosphere to cause ozone depletion... one of these chicken littles suggested it blew up mountains... ok, but that theory fell on hard times when I pointed out there's about a ten thousand foot difference between the highest mountain and the stratosphere... duh. no answer... junk science... If your system isn't pumping cold or not cycling at all there probably isn't any freon left in your system. The kits at the chain store first install a compatible oil, then two cans of r134. I may be doing this on Ludwig... john At 02:53 AM 4/8/2003 -0400, Robert Chase wrote: >Hey, > >Got a few questions on the w-126 A/C systems. Im considering a change >over to the R-134 refrigerant because its cheaper. I read an article on >mbz.org indicating that r-12 could be swapped with r-134 but r-22 had a >different pressure relationship and needed a new compressor. Im wondering >what the w-126 used for refrigerant in 1982. >I know the r-12 needs to be "removed" from the system before the r-134 can >be added. Im wondering what "legal" and non ozone layer killing way it >can be safely removed. Im sure that an A/C shop would charge me a bundle >even though they would sell my old R-12 for a profit. > >This of course is assuming that im running r-12. If Im running r-22 im >going to leave well enough alone until the system goes "kerplunk" and >stops working. And at that it would probably be due to a leak and I would >not have to worry about evacuating the system anyway :) > >Anybody converted theirs yet? Any words of wisdom to share? > >R. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 07:24:49 -0400 From: Michael Frank Subject: Re: A/C Stuff Your car was originally charged with R12. The ONLY legal way of removing the old charge is to have it recycled. Mike Frank At 02:53 AM 4/8/03, Robert Chase wrote: > Im wondering what the w-126 used for refrigerant in 1982. >I know the r-12 needs to be "removed" from the system before the r-134 can >be added. Im wondering what "legal" and non ozone layer killing way it >can be safely removed. Im sure that an A/C shop would charge me a bundle >even though they would sell my old R-12 for a profit. ------------------------------ Date: 08 Apr 2003 10:08:54 -0400 From: gary Subject: Re: A/C Stuff Robert, The early 80's cars had R-12. R-22 was used mainly in stationary A/C systems such as home heat pumps and such. I have been exploring this for my '86 190D. >From what I understand, to do a "proper" retro-fit, you have to do these things... - -Have the existing system evacuated by a certified A/C shop. - -Change the pressure port fittings to R-134 type. - -Some o-rings may need to be replaced. - -Flush out the old, R-12 compatible oil. R-134 oil is different and the two don't mix. - -Replace your receiver/dryer. The old desiccant is not compatible with R-134. The newer desiccants are compatible with both these days. XR-7? - -You may need to add or change your high pressure switch. - -Inject the required quantity of R-134 oil. Preferably distributing it in appropriate quantities to the various components(compressor, condenser, receiver, evaporator. - -Inject about 70% (of the specified R-12 poundage... if your system called for 2.2 lbs of R-12, it would need 1.54 lbs of R-134) It sounds like a lot of work, but it is actually pretty easy. You may want to investigate an alternative orifice or expansion valve to increase cooling at low speeds. - -Gary in Orlando On Tue, 2003-04-08 at 02:53, Robert Chase wrote: > Hey, > > Got a few questions on the w-126 A/C systems. Im considering a change > over to the R-134 refrigerant because its cheaper. I read an article on > mbz.org indicating that r-12 could be swapped with r-134 but r-22 had a > different pressure relationship and needed a new compressor. Im > wondering what the w-126 used for refrigerant in 1982. > > I know the r-12 needs to be "removed" from the system before the r-134 > can be added. Im wondering what "legal" and non ozone layer killing way > it can be safely removed. Im sure that an A/C shop would charge me a > bundle even though they would sell my old R-12 for a profit. > > This of course is assuming that im running r-12. If Im running r-22 im > going to leave well enough alone until the system goes "kerplunk" and > stops working. And at that it would probably be due to a leak and I > would not have to worry about evacuating the system anyway :) > > Anybody converted theirs yet? Any words of wisdom to share? > > R. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 10:39:52 -0400 From: Michael Frank Subject: Re: A/C Stuff At 04:57 AM 4/8/03, john wrote: >Remember that freon is heavier then air... haven't had any >environmentalwhackos yet explain to me how it gets into the >stratosphere to cause ozone depletion... one of these chicken >littles suggested it blew up mountains... ok, but that theory >fell on hard times when I pointed out there's about a ten thousand >foot difference between the highest mountain and the stratosphere... Where do you get these ideas? I will explain how R12 gets into the upper atmosphere for you. Now follow along, I'll do this slowly, feel free to ask any questions. 1) A simple analogy. Find a bottle of Italian dressing. Observe how, after it's been on the shelf for an hour or so, the various constituents settle out. Oil, vinegar, spices, all arrayed in neat layers. Now shake the bottle, hard. Observe that you have a lumpy mixture. Even the heavy spices are floating in the middle. Oil and vinegar are mixed up at all levels in the bottle. The substances are not any more or less dense. But they are for a time, homogeneously dispersed. Unless you keep shaking, nature will take it's course and everything will find it's level. The key is that energy has to be applied to keep things mixed up. 2) The mechanism for raising R12 into the stratosphere is present at the poles. During the polar winter, air in the upper atmosphere cools to very low temperatures. Cold air is denser, which causes it to sink. This creates a gigantic cyclone roughly centered at the pole. Specifically, high winds circulate around the south pole in a westerly direction for about six months every year, due to the interaction of the atmosphere and the land mass. The wind pattern isolates the atmosphere at the pole, and continually draws air down from high in the atmosphere and pushes air up to the stratosphere from below. It's like a gigantic washing machine....everything gets mixed up. Similar events, such as hurricanes and tornadoes can cause similar effects in the middle latitudes, but have shorter duration. 3) As a result of this process, stuff that would normally be found at low levels circulates into the upper atmosphere. Any R12 present will be broken down by high energy solar radiation once it rises high enough. 4) The byproducts of decaying R12 catalytically decompose O3 into O2. A little bit of R12 can catalyze an enormous amount of O3. That's it. The only reason that there's any ozone layer remaining is that it's going to take a long time for all the R12 manufactured over the last half century to find it's way to the poles. Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:17:25 -0500 From: "Black, Waylon" Subject: RE: A/C Stuff http://www.lenzdist.com/Prods.html#R-12 Freeze 12 A case of 12 oz cans is $60. Been using it for 2-3 years, in Texas(read HOT summers). No problems, yet. Tree-huggers unite! ;) Freeze-12: Freeze-12 from Johnsen's is an alternative refrigerant developed to replace R-12 in mobile air conditioning systems. Performance and efficiency of Freeze-12 are very similar to R-12. Freeze-12 is a non-flammable, EPA accepted refrigerant that contains no CFC's. Freeze-12 is the ideal replacement for older R-12 A/C sytems since it works with existing R-12 lubricant. Freeze-12 simply requires different fittings and labels which are available through Lenz. No system flushes or extensive training are necessary for the use of Freeze-12 In addition to ease of use and compatibility, Freeze-12 also costs less than R-12 and it's lighter than R-12 so you don't have to use as much. You'll only need 90% of Freeze-12 in your current R-12 system. Save now on Freeze-12, in 12 oz. cans or 30 lb. cylinders. Call Lenz today toll-free at 1-877-243-8103 or... - -----Original Message----- From: Robert Chase [mailto:beostar-at-sdf.lonestar.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 1:54 AM To: Diesel Benz Subject: A/C Stuff Hey, Got a few questions on the w-126 A/C systems. Im considering a change over to the R-134 refrigerant because its cheaper. I read an article on mbz.org indicating that r-12 could be swapped with r-134 but r-22 had a different pressure relationship and needed a new compressor. Im wondering what the w-126 used for refrigerant in 1982. I know the r-12 needs to be "removed" from the system before the r-134 can be added. Im wondering what "legal" and non ozone layer killing way it can be safely removed. Im sure that an A/C shop would charge me a bundle even though they would sell my old R-12 for a profit. This of course is assuming that im running r-12. If Im running r-22 im going to leave well enough alone until the system goes "kerplunk" and stops working. And at that it would probably be due to a leak and I would not have to worry about evacuating the system anyway :) Anybody converted theirs yet? Any words of wisdom to share? R. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 08:42:09 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: A/C Stuff At 10:08 AM 4/8/2003 -0400, gary wrote: >-Flush out the old, R-12 compatible oil. R-134 oil is different and the >two don't mix. the kits that are in the parts chain use an oil that is compatible with the old r12 oil... I've done this conversion on two benz and a jeep with no problems and no hardware changes. The systems had been exposed because a mechanic had replaced a hose and hadn't charged the system back up or just because of non-use leaked out... pick up the kit and read the details... all the things gary said are the "correct" and expensive way to do it, but I found it to be unnecessary and my systems worked fine for at least the two years or so I had it after the conversion... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 08:47:52 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: A/C Stuff I see... but I don't use Italian dressing, I prefer Ranch, so your theory breaks down at my salad bowl... ;) We should probably change the date on your original post to a week and a day earlier... ;) The ratio of atmosphere to all the R12 ever made couldn't make this happen. The emissions from volcanic activity in one year far exceed all the output of man since the industrial revolution... Remember, the news article about Reagan being right about trees polluting? ;) Ever see the site junkscience? Quite interesting... haven't looked at it for a while. john At 10:39 AM 4/8/2003 -0400, Michael Frank wrote: >At 04:57 AM 4/8/03, john wrote: >>Remember that freon is heavier then air... haven't had any >>environmentalwhackos yet explain to me how it gets into the >>stratosphere to cause ozone depletion... one of these chicken >>littles suggested it blew up mountains... ok, but that theory >>fell on hard times when I pointed out there's about a ten thousand >>foot difference between the highest mountain and the stratosphere... > >Where do you get these ideas? I will explain how R12 gets into the upper >atmosphere for you. Now follow along, I'll do this slowly, feel free to >ask any questions. > >1) A simple analogy. Find a bottle of Italian dressing. Observe how, after >it's been on the shelf for an hour or so, the various constituents settle >out. Oil, vinegar, spices, all arrayed in neat layers. Now shake the >bottle, hard. Observe that you have a lumpy mixture. Even the heavy spices >are floating in the middle. Oil and vinegar are mixed up at all levels in >the bottle. The substances are not any more or less dense. But they are >for a time, homogeneously dispersed. Unless you keep shaking, nature will >take it's course and everything will find it's level. The key is that >energy has to be applied to keep things mixed up. > >2) The mechanism for raising R12 into the stratosphere is present at the >poles. During the polar winter, air in the upper atmosphere cools to very >low temperatures. Cold air is denser, which causes it to sink. This >creates a gigantic cyclone roughly centered at the pole. Specifically, >high winds circulate around the south pole in a westerly direction for >about six months every year, due to the interaction of the atmosphere and >the land mass. The wind pattern isolates the atmosphere at the pole, and >continually draws air down from high in the atmosphere and pushes air up >to the stratosphere from below. It's like a gigantic washing >machine....everything gets mixed up. Similar events, such as hurricanes >and tornadoes can cause similar effects in the middle latitudes, but have >shorter duration. > >3) As a result of this process, stuff that would normally be found at low >levels circulates into the upper atmosphere. Any R12 present will be >broken down by high energy solar radiation once it rises high enough. > >4) The byproducts of decaying R12 catalytically decompose O3 into O2. A >little bit of R12 can catalyze an enormous amount of O3. > >That's it. The only reason that there's any ozone layer remaining is that >it's going to take a long time for all the R12 manufactured over the last >half century to find it's way to the poles. > >Mike Frank - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:28:02 -0400 From: Michael Frank Subject: Re: A/C Stuff The reaction is catalytic. A small amount of R12 could deplete ALL of the O3 in the atmosphere, if other chemicals weren't present to further degrade it. Mike Frank At 11:47 AM 4/8/03, john wrote: >The ratio of atmosphere to all the R12 ever made couldn't >make this happen. The emissions from volcanic activity in >one year far exceed all the output of man since the industrial >revolution... Remember, the news article about Reagan being >right about trees polluting? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:01:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerome Kaidor Subject: Re: A/C Stuff Michael Frank wrote: > > > 2) The mechanism for raising R12 into the stratosphere is present at the > poles. During the polar winter, air in the upper atmosphere cools to very > low temperatures. Cold air is denser, which causes it to sink. *** I'm told there's also an effect at the equator, where hot air rises into the stratosphere. The hot air rising at the equator and the cold air falling at the pole, create a south-north current. The earth, meanwhile, is rotating to the east, and a net westward turn is imparted to this current by "coriolis force". "10,000 feet above the highest mountain", ain't much: thunderstorms regularly get that high and higher. Basically, it's all one ocean of air, and it gets shaken up pretty good, although airmasses of different characteristics mix reluctantly. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ( Who had to study that ocean to earn the privilege of bouncing around in it in his little airplane ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 16:30:49 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: 190D shocks does anyone know if the rear shocks are like the front to change? (I know, I could just look under it... but I'm also testing the email system... having a windows moment and hopped out to UNIX to see if the problem was MS or something else... if this gets through it's MS... ;) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #958 *********************************