From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #989 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Friday, April 25 2003 Volume 01 : Number 989 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) Re: Harbor Freight Tools Store locator RE: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) RE: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) Re: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) RE: sunroof repaired! Fw: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:11:27 US/Central From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: RE: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) Oooh. You may have opened a nice juicy can o' worms. Although my experience is admittedly limited, consisting mostly of my own vehicles, I have some impressions of MB cars, especially of 70's and 80's vintage, that don't match up with your reasoning. The engineers seem to have done a great combination of designing the systems AND determining maintenance requirements. If ongoing maintenance of the vehicle is reasonably close to MB recommendations, component lifetime is generally fairly consistent, predictable, and long. If maintenance is not appropriate, all bets are off. If the transmission has been serviced at the recommended intervals on a 300SD, for example, that transmission is very likely to last 300,000 miles. If it's still got the original fluid in there, you are rolling your karmic dice if you take this one on. Pricing of a used Benz frequently reflects the maintenance levels. There are of course some exceptions in both directions. So it's often not simply a matter of "I have the tools, skills, and time to perform all the neglected maintenance myself, and save on the labor costs." You sometimes can't simply "catch up" on neglected maintenance, or at least doing so can involve larger chunks of money to replace a dead subsystem with one priced appropriately for something that will last a long, long time _with its appropriate maintenance_. While this line of thinking may be said to apply to all brands of cars, I personally think the 70's and 80's Benzes are somewhat unique in that they really were engineered and built better than most other cars, providing a level of predictability not applicable to other makes. It would be much harder to predict extended reliabilty with the same level of confidence for most American cars of that vintage, even with the recommended maintenance. On the other hand, even well-maintained MB's of this age frequently now need maintenance that can approach or exceed the market value of the vehicle if one has to pay full labor rates. The ability to do your own work replacing suspension and driveline rubber can make a significant difference, and my personal lack of that ability is seriously hampering my potential to replace my current 89 300CE with a nice 83-ish 300SD at a justifiable-to-the-wife price. As to the used car - new car thing, around 1991 or so, within the span of about six months, we bought an 85 300D for something like $10,500, and we bought a brand-new VW Golf for about $12K. That hammered the new car - used car lesson home for me. We were grateful and celebratory to unload the VW when we finally owed only about a thousand more than the car was worth. We kept the 300D for 8 years, longer than we have kept any of a dozen or so cars before or since. OK. Long enough rambles. I need more coffee. Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 156K ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:04:47 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: Harbor Freight Tools Store locator funny, we were just talking about that on one of the lists... :) (heading down to Fry's Electronics in Wilsonville, OR (and a quick contracting job to install a server in Portland... ;) will dial up on my cell phone after 8pm tonight... or later, depending how the install goes... later, john At 09:03 AM 4/25/2003 -0700, Jim B wrote: SPOKANE 15312 SPRAGUE AVE BAY A 509-922-2495 RICHLAND 305 WELLSIAN WAY 509-946-8001 LACEY 4520 LACEY BLVD #10 360-493-0689 TACOMA 5401 6TH AVE #B407 253-759-5402 EVERETT 5231 EVERGREEN WAY 425-513-6213 http://www.harborfreightusa.com/retailstore_retail.taf#WA Jim Blair, Seattle, WA '84 J10 Black Jack, '86 Comanche 4x4 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com from Snohomish, Washington reminding you not to leave life without Jesus. Need a choice of computing tools and operating systems? SEE: http://wagoneers.com/UNIX/options.html ============================================================================= "Microsoft Certified Professionals are to the computing industry what McDonald Certified Food Specialists are to gourmet restaurants." -Michael Bacarella 3/15/2000 (as seen on http://www.slashdot.com/) ============================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:10:24 -0400 From: "Aimino, Michael" Subject: RE: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) Yeah, I'm the (proud?) owner of a lot of HF stuff. It's cheap, but I'm happy with most of the stuff I've bought. Obviously, if I was turning wrenches for a living, HF wouldn't cut it, but for me, it's usually a good value for the money. OT, I've been eyeballing that $89 sliding compound miter saw for a while... - -----Original Message----- From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 12:02 PM To: Aimino, Michael; Diesel Benz Subject: RE: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) there's a harbor freight here in Everett, WA... some of the stuff they sell will work, usually, at least once... ;) pretty cheap stuff... picked up a parts washer for $69! STill haven't filled it yet... oh well... also picked up a tranny jack for $49! Have a transfer case "stored" on it. :) john At 09:39 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, Aimino, Michael wrote: >And which 3-in-1 ball joint tool was that (Mike says while excitedly thumbing >through his HF catalog)? I paid to rent a press from Performance Products. >Still a lot cheaper than the shop price, but I'm always looking to pinch a >penny. > >-----Original Message----- >From: gary [mailto:gbangs-at-cfl.rr.com] >Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 9:14 AM >To: Robert Chase >Cc: Diesel Benz >Subject: Re: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) > > >Well said and right on! > >My sentiments exactly. > >However, my philosophy is bourne from a different background... > >As a young enlisted man, I could never afford a (st/d)ealer's rates. It >was always cheaper to buy the tools and do it myself. And this was with >VW diesels. > >Now, I take great pride in keeping my 'vintage' iron in good repair. >Knowing that I did it myself. I hope my children will pick up on that as >they grow. > >Though I could more afford it recently, I had a quote to do my front >ball joints for $250. I've heard that they needed to be pressed out/in >with a press, and that the front springs had to be compressed with a >special "inner" spring compressor. > >Well, I got one of those 3-in-1 ball joint servicing sets (on sale) from >Harbour Freight, the ball joints from Rusty, jacked up then set the car >down on blocks under the control arms, and 3 hours later, new ball >joints. Less than $100 total. > > >-Gary in Orlando >1986 MB 190D 2.5 > > > > > > >On Fri, 2003-04-25 at 05:01, Robert Chase wrote: > > Come on guys... Gimme a break here..... > > > > Cars are machines. Machines break. No matter if you have a brand new > > machine or an old machine. This cheap Mercedes stuff is just a lot of > > superstition. There is no way that you can predict which machines will > > fail and which ones will last forever. The price you pay for the car > > has nothing to do with how much repair you will have to put into it. > > > > My 82 300SD was filled with water when I bought it and had a number of > > major issues that screamed "stay away" yet it has been the posterchild > > for reliability and has yet to give me major greif. My car was a super > > well maintained car that spent several years in a parking deck. > > > > Paying on the front end does not give you any additional reliability. > > If your transmission has a manafacturing defect in it that has taken 10 > > years or 2 years to surface having perfect maint records and paying full > > book does nothing to help you. Same thing goes with every other system > > on the car. The only way to be absolutely sure is to dissasemble the > > car and look at every part and put it back together. > > > > If it makes you feel better to pay more than you have to please feel > > free. I would rather get a good deal and absorb the costs of the > > repairs and know that they were done right and its unlikely I will have > > the same failure within a reasonable time frame (although one never > > knows cars have that fun way of suprising you). The Important thing to > > keep in mind is that all cars are unknowns until you get to know them. > > My dad had an interesting saying "the beast you know is sometimes better > > than the one you don't". > > > > I do see "some" logic to what your saying though. If your looking at a > > car with a LOT of stuff wrong with it its likely the owner was not > > forthcoming with you on other repairs that it probably needs as well. > > Thats just part of kicking the tires and doing the numbers. I have > > gotten plenty of good deals on great cars. I have been lucky in > > spotting major problems and avoiding bad cars. I have only been burned > > a couple of times and usually it was a "gray area" kind of issue and I > > did not check those issues thouroughly. > > > > A friend of mine drives me crazy though with his "used cars are used > > cars for a reason". He will only buy new cars and thinks that he is > > safe from issues. His First Volvo C70 Convertible bought brand new was > > returned under lemon law because it was such a horrid piece of junk. He > > is on his second one and is already counting the days before his lease > > ends :). > > > > I always look at a broken part as an chance to make that kind of failure > > unlikely in the future. > > > > Hopefully my karma will be good and my car won't completely unravel in > > front of my eyes like my S70 did because I dared to question the laws of > > the universe :). > > > > Enjoy your cars and keep in mind that every penny you put in maint and > > repairs is a penny you did not loose in a dealership profit or interest > > on a loan. You got something for what you spent. > > > > Robert. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:02:06 -0700 From: john Subject: RE: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) there's a harbor freight here in Everett, WA... some of the stuff they sell will work, usually, at least once... ;) pretty cheap stuff... picked up a parts washer for $69! STill haven't filled it yet... oh well... also picked up a tranny jack for $49! Have a transfer case "stored" on it. :) john At 09:39 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, Aimino, Michael wrote: >And which 3-in-1 ball joint tool was that (Mike says while excitedly thumbing >through his HF catalog)? I paid to rent a press from Performance Products. >Still a lot cheaper than the shop price, but I'm always looking to pinch a >penny. > >-----Original Message----- >From: gary [mailto:gbangs-at-cfl.rr.com] >Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 9:14 AM >To: Robert Chase >Cc: Diesel Benz >Subject: Re: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) > > >Well said and right on! > >My sentiments exactly. > >However, my philosophy is bourne from a different background... > >As a young enlisted man, I could never afford a (st/d)ealer's rates. It >was always cheaper to buy the tools and do it myself. And this was with >VW diesels. > >Now, I take great pride in keeping my 'vintage' iron in good repair. >Knowing that I did it myself. I hope my children will pick up on that as >they grow. > >Though I could more afford it recently, I had a quote to do my front >ball joints for $250. I've heard that they needed to be pressed out/in >with a press, and that the front springs had to be compressed with a >special "inner" spring compressor. > >Well, I got one of those 3-in-1 ball joint servicing sets (on sale) from >Harbour Freight, the ball joints from Rusty, jacked up then set the car >down on blocks under the control arms, and 3 hours later, new ball >joints. Less than $100 total. > > >-Gary in Orlando >1986 MB 190D 2.5 > > > > > > >On Fri, 2003-04-25 at 05:01, Robert Chase wrote: > > Come on guys... Gimme a break here..... > > > > Cars are machines. Machines break. No matter if you have a brand new > > machine or an old machine. This cheap Mercedes stuff is just a lot of > > superstition. There is no way that you can predict which machines will > > fail and which ones will last forever. The price you pay for the car > > has nothing to do with how much repair you will have to put into it. > > > > My 82 300SD was filled with water when I bought it and had a number of > > major issues that screamed "stay away" yet it has been the posterchild > > for reliability and has yet to give me major greif. My car was a super > > well maintained car that spent several years in a parking deck. > > > > Paying on the front end does not give you any additional reliability. > > If your transmission has a manafacturing defect in it that has taken 10 > > years or 2 years to surface having perfect maint records and paying full > > book does nothing to help you. Same thing goes with every other system > > on the car. The only way to be absolutely sure is to dissasemble the > > car and look at every part and put it back together. > > > > If it makes you feel better to pay more than you have to please feel > > free. I would rather get a good deal and absorb the costs of the > > repairs and know that they were done right and its unlikely I will have > > the same failure within a reasonable time frame (although one never > > knows cars have that fun way of suprising you). The Important thing to > > keep in mind is that all cars are unknowns until you get to know them. > > My dad had an interesting saying "the beast you know is sometimes better > > than the one you don't". > > > > I do see "some" logic to what your saying though. If your looking at a > > car with a LOT of stuff wrong with it its likely the owner was not > > forthcoming with you on other repairs that it probably needs as well. > > Thats just part of kicking the tires and doing the numbers. I have > > gotten plenty of good deals on great cars. I have been lucky in > > spotting major problems and avoiding bad cars. I have only been burned > > a couple of times and usually it was a "gray area" kind of issue and I > > did not check those issues thouroughly. > > > > A friend of mine drives me crazy though with his "used cars are used > > cars for a reason". He will only buy new cars and thinks that he is > > safe from issues. His First Volvo C70 Convertible bought brand new was > > returned under lemon law because it was such a horrid piece of junk. He > > is on his second one and is already counting the days before his lease > > ends :). > > > > I always look at a broken part as an chance to make that kind of failure > > unlikely in the future. > > > > Hopefully my karma will be good and my car won't completely unravel in > > front of my eyes like my S70 did because I dared to question the laws of > > the universe :). > > > > Enjoy your cars and keep in mind that every penny you put in maint and > > repairs is a penny you did not loose in a dealership profit or interest > > on a loan. You got something for what you spent. > > > > Robert. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:00:33 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) understand about the young enlisted thing... funny how things repeat themselves, here I am facing a 30k/yr pay cut... :( glad I have tools... and access to affordable parts... still need to sell the '99 WJ, refinance and sell off part of my Tonka Jeep collection to stay in the house... but I think we're going to make it thanx to the little baby benz... ;) john At 09:14 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, gary wrote: >Well said and right on! > >My sentiments exactly. > >However, my philosophy is bourne from a different background... > >As a young enlisted man, I could never afford a (st/d)ealer's rates. It >was always cheaper to buy the tools and do it myself. And this was with >VW diesels. > >Now, I take great pride in keeping my 'vintage' iron in good repair. >Knowing that I did it myself. I hope my children will pick up on that as >they grow. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:53:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert L Bell Jr Subject: RE: sunroof repaired! Ok How easy or hard is it to work on the sunroof? What do you have to do to lube it? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:50:10 -0400 From: "Eurowerks" Subject: Fw: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) Kirk A. Gilchrist EURO-WERKS / Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Volvo Service and Repair 8 South Highland St. / Winchester, KY 40391 / 859-745-0125 eurowerks-at-qx.net / 888-522-0271 toll free - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eurowerks" To: "Robert Chase" Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 8:11 AM Subject: Re: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) > I agree 100%! I have been living by this credo for many years. I will > never buy a new car, as then you have a car payment as well as a maintenance > payment. New cars seem to have nearly as many problems as old cars. I have > been telling my customers this for years. "I would rather have a car that > has 200K on the odometer, because it had to be maintained to get there > whereas a low mileage car of the same year (assuming that the car is at > least 10 years old-use an 89' 560 SL as an example) probably has had nothing > done in maintenance yet. Somehow though, all of my clients want a low > mileage car. I have seen this happen time and time again. They get a low > mileage car and as soon as they start driving the car regularly it starts to > fall apart. The water pump fails, the fuel pump gets noisy, the wheel > bearing go from sitting around, etc... > Once again for all of you non-believers, I happen to have more than a > thousand clients service records to prove this theory. It is becoming more > than theory as the years go by and the records pile up! > > Kirk A. Gilchrist > EURO-WERKS / Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Volvo Service and Repair > 8 South Highland St. / Winchester, KY 40391 / 859-745-0125 > eurowerks-at-qx.net / 888-522-0271 toll free ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #989 *********************************