From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #990 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Friday, April 25 2003 Volume 01 : Number 990 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) RE: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) RE: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:13:44 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) Alec, Some things to think about. 1. You can never know if the service was done "right" on a car even if you have the records to prove the service was done. An incorrectly performed service can in some cases be worse than not having one done. Using the wrong fluids/cross threading bolts/underfilling and overfilling of fluids can all have a signifigant impact on a car's wearing out prematurely. 2. Rubber rot occurs regardless of mileage and service history. Its age/atmosperic condition dependant. 3. Electronics failures occur regardless of mileage and service history. When its time its time. 4. Rust occurs regardless of mileage and service history. Its age/atmospheric condition dependant. 5. Do your service records contain detailed information on the fuel this car used most of its life? No? :) And if they used fuel with low lubricity all of its life your fuel injection system is probably tired even at a low mileage. 6. All mechanics are different. My Mechanic does a huge amount of business and is quick, reasonably priced and knows what they are doing. You dont have to do the work yourself and you don't have to get ripped off either. 7. Some people "think" that they can recover service costs in their pricing. They are wrong and it takes a long time for them to sell their cars. People who pay extra for a highly serviced car are being ripped off. A car is worth book value if it is highly serviced and then the price drops from there. Repairs dont make a car more valuble they are just required to keep them running and maintain the car's condition. 8. Do service records contain any information on "how" this car was driven? It could have been driven on the highway most of its life or it could have been used by some little old lady that drove the the store every day in stop and go traffic or it could have been used to deliver news papers. The simple fact of the matter is you have no way of knowing. And the way a car is driven is directly related to how quickly it wears out. I almost bought a C280 recently and wanted to trade in my Accord. The dealer was asking top dollar for the C280 mostly because it was a 1999 and had low miles somewhere near 38k. I demanded to see the service records on the 280 and made it a dealbreaker. No records no sale. They suddenly found the service records that they "dont get" with their cars. The car had been serviced ONCE in its lifetime and then the dealership brought it in for a service noticing that it had not been serviced. It was probably a repo. The one service indicated synthetic oil so it was not "that" bad. I was willing to buy the car because the miles were low and there was not much damage done but I wanted an adjustment in price. The dealership would not budge on their price and ended up sitting on that car for close to 7 more months. I'll buy a car with no service records if the price is right but the price has to reflect this. I will also buy a car with full records and an owner that went out of their way in service. Ill pay book but no more. The bad thing is there is no real way of telling which car will end up costing more in mechanical failures. Unless you have a crystal ball it is still theoretically possible that either car will have a serious mechanical failure. While you can slightly increase your odds of getting a good car by looking for one that has been taken care of its still a risk and as much of a risk as a car with high miles and no records and a cheap price. At least with the cheap price your able to have room to absorb the painfull issues that might occur. Robert. acordova-at-texas.net wrote: >Oooh. You may have opened a nice juicy can o' worms. > >Although my experience is admittedly limited, consisting mostly of my own >vehicles, I have some impressions of MB cars, especially of 70's and 80's >vintage, that don't match up with your reasoning. > >The engineers seem to have done a great combination of designing the systems >AND determining maintenance requirements. If ongoing maintenance of the vehicle >is reasonably close to MB recommendations, component lifetime is generally >fairly consistent, predictable, and long. > >If maintenance is not appropriate, all bets are off. > >If the transmission has been serviced at the recommended intervals on a 300SD, >for example, that transmission is very likely to last 300,000 miles. If it's >still got the original fluid in there, you are rolling your karmic dice if you >take this one on. > >Pricing of a used Benz frequently reflects the maintenance levels. There are of >course some exceptions in both directions. > >So it's often not simply a matter of "I have the tools, skills, and time to >perform all the neglected maintenance myself, and save on the labor costs." You >sometimes can't simply "catch up" on neglected maintenance, or at least doing >so can involve larger chunks of money to replace a dead subsystem with one >priced appropriately for something that will last a long, long time _with its >appropriate maintenance_. > >While this line of thinking may be said to apply to all brands of cars, I >personally think the 70's and 80's Benzes are somewhat unique in that they >really were engineered and built better than most other cars, providing a level >of predictability not applicable to other makes. It would be much harder to >predict extended reliabilty with the same level of confidence for most American >cars of that vintage, even with the recommended maintenance. > >On the other hand, even well-maintained MB's of this age frequently now need >maintenance that can approach or exceed the market value of the vehicle if one >has to pay full labor rates. The ability to do your own work replacing >suspension and driveline rubber can make a significant difference, and my >personal lack of that ability is seriously hampering my potential to replace my >current 89 300CE with a nice 83-ish 300SD at a justifiable-to-the-wife price. > >As to the used car - new car thing, around 1991 or so, within the span of about >six months, we bought an 85 300D for something like $10,500, and we bought a >brand-new VW Golf for about $12K. That hammered the new car - used car lesson >home for me. We were grateful and celebratory to unload the VW when we finally >owed only about a thousand more than the car was worth. We kept the 300D for 8 >years, longer than we have kept any of a dozen or so cars before or since. > >OK. Long enough rambles. I need more coffee. > >Alec Cordova >Taylor, Texas >89 300CE, 156K ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 2003 17:17:54 -0400 From: gary Subject: RE: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) Aimino, Here is the catalog page for the ball joint press. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=38335 Remember, this worked for me for my w201 lower ball joints, not for upper w123 ball joints. As it is it worked like a champ, but... Look at the ends of your control arms. On the very outside of the arm, where the ball joint seats, check to see if there is a bit of a lip. One of my arms did and the receiving tube butted up against nicely. The other side, didn't have much of a lip at all. Nothing there for the tube to catch. Ended up grinding a bug "U" so the tube would catch the two side ears on the control arm. But $39 well spent. - -Gary in Orlando '86 MB 190D 2.5 On Fri, 2003-04-25 at 09:39, Aimino, Michael wrote: > And which 3-in-1 ball joint tool was that (Mike says while excitedly thumbing > through his HF catalog)? I paid to rent a press from Performance Products. > Still a lot cheaper than the shop price, but I'm always looking to pinch a > penny. > > -----Original Message----- > From: gary [mailto:gbangs-at-cfl.rr.com] > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 9:14 AM > To: Robert Chase > Cc: Diesel Benz > Subject: Re: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) > > > Well said and right on! > > My sentiments exactly. > > However, my philosophy is bourne from a different background... > > As a young enlisted man, I could never afford a (st/d)ealer's rates. It > was always cheaper to buy the tools and do it myself. And this was with > VW diesels. > > Now, I take great pride in keeping my 'vintage' iron in good repair. > Knowing that I did it myself. I hope my children will pick up on that as > they grow. > > Though I could more afford it recently, I had a quote to do my front > ball joints for $250. I've heard that they needed to be pressed out/in > with a press, and that the front springs had to be compressed with a > special "inner" spring compressor. > > Well, I got one of those 3-in-1 ball joint servicing sets (on sale) from > Harbour Freight, the ball joints from Rusty, jacked up then set the car > down on blocks under the control arms, and 3 hours later, new ball > joints. Less than $100 total. > > > -Gary in Orlando > 1986 MB 190D 2.5 > > > > > > > On Fri, 2003-04-25 at 05:01, Robert Chase wrote: > > Come on guys... Gimme a break here..... > > > > Cars are machines. Machines break. No matter if you have a brand new > > machine or an old machine. This cheap Mercedes stuff is just a lot of > > superstition. There is no way that you can predict which machines will > > fail and which ones will last forever. The price you pay for the car > > has nothing to do with how much repair you will have to put into it. > > > > My 82 300SD was filled with water when I bought it and had a number of > > major issues that screamed "stay away" yet it has been the posterchild > > for reliability and has yet to give me major greif. My car was a super > > well maintained car that spent several years in a parking deck. > > > > Paying on the front end does not give you any additional reliability. > > If your transmission has a manafacturing defect in it that has taken 10 > > years or 2 years to surface having perfect maint records and paying full > > book does nothing to help you. Same thing goes with every other system > > on the car. The only way to be absolutely sure is to dissasemble the > > car and look at every part and put it back together. > > > > If it makes you feel better to pay more than you have to please feel > > free. I would rather get a good deal and absorb the costs of the > > repairs and know that they were done right and its unlikely I will have > > the same failure within a reasonable time frame (although one never > > knows cars have that fun way of suprising you). The Important thing to > > keep in mind is that all cars are unknowns until you get to know them. > > My dad had an interesting saying "the beast you know is sometimes better > > than the one you don't". > > > > I do see "some" logic to what your saying though. If your looking at a > > car with a LOT of stuff wrong with it its likely the owner was not > > forthcoming with you on other repairs that it probably needs as well. > > Thats just part of kicking the tires and doing the numbers. I have > > gotten plenty of good deals on great cars. I have been lucky in > > spotting major problems and avoiding bad cars. I have only been burned > > a couple of times and usually it was a "gray area" kind of issue and I > > did not check those issues thouroughly. > > > > A friend of mine drives me crazy though with his "used cars are used > > cars for a reason". He will only buy new cars and thinks that he is > > safe from issues. His First Volvo C70 Convertible bought brand new was > > returned under lemon law because it was such a horrid piece of junk. He > > is on his second one and is already counting the days before his lease > > ends :). > > > > I always look at a broken part as an chance to make that kind of failure > > unlikely in the future. > > > > Hopefully my karma will be good and my car won't completely unravel in > > front of my eyes like my S70 did because I dared to question the laws of > > the universe :). > > > > Enjoy your cars and keep in mind that every penny you put in maint and > > repairs is a penny you did not loose in a dealership profit or interest > > on a loan. You got something for what you spent. > > > > Robert. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 2003 17:20:26 -0400 From: gary Subject: RE: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) I've had the 10" compound miter for a couple of years now. Works like a champ. I built a portable table for it. Extremely convenient. - -Gary On Fri, 2003-04-25 at 12:10, Aimino, Michael wrote: > Yeah, I'm the (proud?) owner of a lot of HF stuff. It's cheap, but I'm happy > with most of the stuff I've bought. Obviously, if I was turning wrenches for a > living, HF wouldn't cut it, but for me, it's usually a good value for the > money. > > OT, I've been eyeballing that $89 sliding compound miter saw for a while... > > -----Original Message----- > From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 12:02 PM > To: Aimino, Michael; Diesel Benz > Subject: RE: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) > > > > there's a harbor freight here in Everett, WA... some of the stuff > they sell will work, usually, at least once... ;) pretty cheap > stuff... picked up a parts washer for $69! STill haven't filled > it yet... oh well... also picked up a tranny jack for $49! Have > a transfer case "stored" on it. :) > > john > > At 09:39 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, Aimino, Michael wrote: > >And which 3-in-1 ball joint tool was that (Mike says while excitedly > thumbing > >through his HF catalog)? I paid to rent a press from Performance Products. > >Still a lot cheaper than the shop price, but I'm always looking to pinch a > >penny. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: gary [mailto:gbangs-at-cfl.rr.com] > >Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 9:14 AM > >To: Robert Chase > >Cc: Diesel Benz > >Subject: Re: Cheap MB's (sorta a flame) > > > > > >Well said and right on! > > > >My sentiments exactly. > > > >However, my philosophy is bourne from a different background... > > > >As a young enlisted man, I could never afford a (st/d)ealer's rates. It > >was always cheaper to buy the tools and do it myself. And this was with > >VW diesels. > > > >Now, I take great pride in keeping my 'vintage' iron in good repair. > >Knowing that I did it myself. I hope my children will pick up on that as > >they grow. > > > >Though I could more afford it recently, I had a quote to do my front > >ball joints for $250. I've heard that they needed to be pressed out/in > >with a press, and that the front springs had to be compressed with a > >special "inner" spring compressor. > > > >Well, I got one of those 3-in-1 ball joint servicing sets (on sale) from > >Harbour Freight, the ball joints from Rusty, jacked up then set the car > >down on blocks under the control arms, and 3 hours later, new ball > >joints. Less than $100 total. > > > > > >-Gary in Orlando > >1986 MB 190D 2.5 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Fri, 2003-04-25 at 05:01, Robert Chase wrote: > > > Come on guys... Gimme a break here..... > > > > > > Cars are machines. Machines break. No matter if you have a brand new > > > machine or an old machine. This cheap Mercedes stuff is just a lot of > > > superstition. There is no way that you can predict which machines will > > > fail and which ones will last forever. The price you pay for the car > > > has nothing to do with how much repair you will have to put into it. > > > > > > My 82 300SD was filled with water when I bought it and had a number of > > > major issues that screamed "stay away" yet it has been the posterchild > > > for reliability and has yet to give me major greif. My car was a super > > > well maintained car that spent several years in a parking deck. > > > > > > Paying on the front end does not give you any additional reliability. > > > If your transmission has a manafacturing defect in it that has taken 10 > > > years or 2 years to surface having perfect maint records and paying full > > > book does nothing to help you. Same thing goes with every other system > > > on the car. The only way to be absolutely sure is to dissasemble the > > > car and look at every part and put it back together. > > > > > > If it makes you feel better to pay more than you have to please feel > > > free. I would rather get a good deal and absorb the costs of the > > > repairs and know that they were done right and its unlikely I will have > > > the same failure within a reasonable time frame (although one never > > > knows cars have that fun way of suprising you). The Important thing to > > > keep in mind is that all cars are unknowns until you get to know them. > > > My dad had an interesting saying "the beast you know is sometimes better > > > than the one you don't". > > > > > > I do see "some" logic to what your saying though. If your looking at a > > > car with a LOT of stuff wrong with it its likely the owner was not > > > forthcoming with you on other repairs that it probably needs as well. > > > Thats just part of kicking the tires and doing the numbers. I have > > > gotten plenty of good deals on great cars. I have been lucky in > > > spotting major problems and avoiding bad cars. I have only been burned > > > a couple of times and usually it was a "gray area" kind of issue and I > > > did not check those issues thouroughly. > > > > > > A friend of mine drives me crazy though with his "used cars are used > > > cars for a reason". He will only buy new cars and thinks that he is > > > safe from issues. His First Volvo C70 Convertible bought brand new was > > > returned under lemon law because it was such a horrid piece of junk. He > > > is on his second one and is already counting the days before his lease > > > ends :). > > > > > > I always look at a broken part as an chance to make that kind of failure > > > unlikely in the future. > > > > > > Hopefully my karma will be good and my car won't completely unravel in > > > front of my eyes like my S70 did because I dared to question the laws of > > > the universe :). > > > > > > Enjoy your cars and keep in mind that every penny you put in maint and > > > repairs is a penny you did not loose in a dealership profit or interest > > > on a loan. You got something for what you spent. > > > > > > Robert. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #990 *********************************