From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #997 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, April 30 2003 Volume 01 : Number 997 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Re: Vegetable Oil fuel we need a petrochemical engineer... Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Re[2]: Vegetable Oil fuel Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:56:52 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: Vegetable Oil fuel On Tue, Apr 29, 2003 at 05:45:55PM -0400, Robert Chase wrote: > One wonders what oil change places do with their used motor oil. They > probably have to pay to have it removed. One could save them some money > in converting it to useful fuel. If filtered I wonder if it could be > used reliably for fuel? Contaminants that don't compress would be a problem. I know most of the oil recycling places around here don't look to see that you are pouring in just oil. They sure didn't say anything about the oil I had that had some water in it from the buick (when the intake manifold gasket caused a water leak into the crankcase). Water doesn't compress, and I'd imagine a diesel rod wouldn't like trying to compress it. Then again, the last run the 2472 did down the peninsula, they ran her off used motor oil. LOTS and LOTS of used motor oil. :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:56:38 -0400 From: Michael Frank Subject: Re: Vegetable Oil fuel I don't think you could use pure motor oil as fuel. I used to mix a gallon of used oil in a tank, and that may have been too rich. The problem is that the viscosity of motor oil is too high...I used to keep a bunch of spare filters in the car, in case of jelling on cold days. Used motor oil is used primarily as fuel, usually in ships boilers or power generating systems. There are waste oil heaters you can buy for your garage. For that matter, you can probably get away with just tossing it in the heating oil tank. I keep all my old fuel filters in ziploc bags, in an old garbage can. During the winter, I use them to start the fireplace. Put them in a pan to prevent leaks, slide it under the logs. Light a corner, with a single piece of paper as a wick. Burns nice and hot for about half an hour. It will start even the wettest logs. Mike Frank At 05:45 PM 4/29/03, you wrote: >Hmmmm, > >Now thats appealing to me..... > >One wonders what oil change places do with their used motor oil. They >probably have to pay to have it removed. One could save them some money >in converting it to useful fuel. If filtered I wonder if it could be >used reliably for fuel? > >Robert. > > > >john wrote: > >>Derick, >> >>I've got friends in the "food industry"... How much do you want? :) >>I haven't asked them yet, but we'll see... >> >>The other option is to use used motor oil. Anyone ever done that? >>I have and it works fine too, but again, my filter clogged with >>these experiments... Need to come up with a way of making sure it >>won't clog filters or injectors... :) >> >>john >> >>At 02:29 PM 4/29/2003 -0700, Derickam AA wrote: >> >>>I love this topic. >>> >>>The book by "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank: The Complete Guide to >>>Using Vegetable Oil As an Alternative Fuel" by Joshua Tickell covers it all. >>> >>>- Biodiesel >>>- Straight veggie oil conversion >>> >>>It even spells out installation and parts sources, way cool. >>> >>>The book is in very high demand apparently. >>>It is currently out of stock on Amazon. >>>Used copies are going for $98 !?! WOW. >>> >>>There is also a link to it on the afore mentioned www.greasecar.com . >>> >>>It is a fascinating topic to ponder. >>> >>>If I had a way to store the oil I would have started doing it by now. >>> >>> >>>Derick Amburgey >>>Automated Control Specialist >>>Port Of Seattle/SeaTac Airport/Satellite Train System >>>Amateur Radio Callsign: K7DXX >>>List "Mom" of Diesel-Benz reflector >>>1985 Mercedes 190D "Tuti" 280,000 Mi >>>1985 Mercedes 190D "Red" 175,000 Mi >>>1984 Mercedes 190D "Charity" 160,000 Mi >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >> http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ >> Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >> jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >>------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:01:42 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: Vegetable Oil fuel The injector pump would have a problem with water more then the rods. ;) A water separator/filter, racor type, would solve that problem anyway... it's the acid from combustion byproducts that would etch pump/injector surfaces... a simple ph test might work... a blend with regular diesel would minimize risk... john At 02:56 PM 4/29/2003 -0700, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >Contaminants that don't compress would be a problem. > >I know most of the oil recycling places around here don't look to see that >you are pouring in just oil. > >They sure didn't say anything about the oil I had that had some water in it >from the buick (when the intake manifold gasket caused a water leak into the >crankcase). Water doesn't compress, and I'd imagine a diesel rod wouldn't >like trying to compress it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:04:31 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: Vegetable Oil fuel At 05:56 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, Michael Frank wrote: >I don't think you could use pure motor oil as fuel. It got me off the trestle... ran fine... I suspect I had a half a quart of Diesel left too... so a mixture would make sense. :) >I used to mix a gallon of used oil in a tank, and that may have been too >rich. The problem is that the viscosity of motor oil is too high...I used >to keep a bunch of spare filters in the car, in case of jelling on cold days. cold days? what are those? Oh, that's when the rain is cold instead of warm... right? ;) When it gets that cold in Seattle I'll be in one of my Jeeps anyway... ice and heavy frost don't mix well with cars... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:05:46 -0700 From: john Subject: we need a petrochemical engineer... just thinking about it... we need a chemist or a petrochemical engineer on this list... :) and a source for good filtration so we can use vegetable and used motor oil.. ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:28:36 -0700 From: "Paul Schwartz" Subject: Re: Vegetable Oil fuel My, my, but this topic caused a rash of interest. Be careful making biodiesel. The Methoxide (lye and methanol) is VERY toxic. I understand that if it gets on your skin it will casue a chemical burn so quickly that the nerves are destroyed and you won't feel it--ever again. If you inhale the fumes your lungs are history and you with them. You cannot smell methoxide and it is colorless. It's sort of a poor man's chemical weapon of mass destruction. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:33:28 -0400 From: "Michael Aimino" Subject: Re: Vegetable Oil fuel The book Derick mentions below covers all of these issues. The short answers: * with biodiesel, no real maint. issues. With straight veggie oil, coking of the injectors may be an issue depending on the system you use. If you start the engine on dino-diesel, then switch to bio- diesel, then cool off on dino-diesel, coking is less of a factor * I assume you're refering to the smell of rancid veggie oil. The process of making biodiesel remove the free fatty acids that are responsible for oil turning rancid. No FFAs, no smell. * Stores the same as dino-diesel. In cold climates (that's freezing and below for you warm-landers on the Pacific Coast ;->), you may need to add an anti-gelling agent, available from just about any truckstop or home heating oil vendor. * Pumping is the same. * Ahh, easy oil. As I gaze out onto my new collection of used oil containers, I know this is a question I can answer. Go to every bar and resturant around you and ask if they have used fryer oil. After they look at you like you're nutz, explain that you'll haul it away for free. See, they have to pay to have a waste disposal company take it, or else find, errr, creative ways to "dispose" of it. One local bar owner almost hugged me when I offered to take his oil - it seems that he had been storing it in the basement for several years and was (almost) literally drowning in the stuff. I happily took 300 gallons off his hands and he happily helped me load it onto my trailer. Have fun! Mike Aimino On 29 Apr 03, at 17:43, Robert Chase wrote: > I have considered it too however there are several questions I have > yet to answer. > > Engine Longevity/Maint issues that might arrise > How to get rid of the smell? > How to store the fuel. > How to pump fuel. > How to obtain oil easily. > > Robert. > > > Derickam AA wrote: > > > I love this topic. > > > > The book by "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank: The Complete Guide to > > Using Vegetable Oil As an Alternative Fuel" by Joshua Tickell covers > > it all. > > > > - Biodiesel > > - Straight veggie oil conversion > > > > It even spells out installation and parts sources, way cool. > > > > The book is in very high demand apparently. > > It is currently out of stock on Amazon. > > Used copies are going for $98 !?! WOW. > > > > There is also a link to it on the afore mentioned www.greasecar.com > > . > > > > It is a fascinating topic to ponder. > > > > If I had a way to store the oil I would have started doing it by > > now. > > > > > > Derick Amburgey > > Automated Control Specialist > > Port Of Seattle/SeaTac Airport/Satellite Train System > > Amateur Radio Callsign: K7DXX > > List "Mom" of Diesel-Benz reflector > > 1985 Mercedes 190D "Tuti" 280,000 Mi > > 1985 Mercedes 190D "Red" 175,000 Mi > > 1984 Mercedes 190D "Charity" 160,000 Mi > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:46:53 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Ooops, Did I forget to mention that deadly chemicals were another one of my reasons for not trying biodiesel :). Robert... Paul Schwartz wrote: >My, my, but this topic caused a rash of interest. > >Be careful making biodiesel. The Methoxide (lye and methanol) is VERY >toxic. I understand that if it gets on your skin it will casue a chemical >burn so quickly that the nerves are destroyed and you won't feel it--ever >again. If you inhale the fumes your lungs are history and you with them. You >cannot smell methoxide and it is colorless. It's sort of a poor man's >chemical weapon of mass destruction. > >Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:21:01 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: Vegetable Oil fuel On Tue, Apr 29, 2003 at 06:46:53PM -0400, Robert Chase wrote: > Did I forget to mention that deadly chemicals were another one of my > reasons for not trying biodiesel :). No sense of adventure. PS - flouride is also toxic, so stop using toothpaste to brush your teeth, and if you live in an area that flouridates its water, there's toxic chemicals in the water, so stick to beer. :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:06:27 -0700 (PDT) From: hue wong Subject: Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Just FYI for those who are starting out making Bio-fuels in the backyard... Glycernin is a big part of a certian, very powerful, explosive, in fact it's the hard element to get if you are interested in making explosives and not bio-fuel. I mention this in case anyone from the ATF or local sheriff's department starts spooking about, because the little old lady down the street called the 1-800 number because she saw you dressed up in NBC gear and a gas mask when you're mixing your bio-fuel with Lye, one sunny sunday afternoon... - -hue- - --- Robert Chase wrote: > ? > > R. > > > > Jim Hoffman wrote: > > >The last conversation on this topic a few weeks ago > talked about > >a *byproduct* of the process that had to be delt > with also? What > >was that? > > > >Jim/ > > > > > > > >>I liked the "popcorn" machine smell that come out > of my > >>VW Rabbit Diesel when I used old vegetable oil > from the deepfat > >>frier at home... :) of course it clogged my fuel > filter pretty > >>quick... ;) > >> > >>john > >> > >>At 02:20 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, Robert Chase wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Yep Biodiesel, > >>> > >>>Check out biodiesel.org for some more > information. > >>>There are two ways that I understand its done. > >>> > >>>The heated tank or the addition of the additives > that make the veggie > >>> > >>> > >oil > > > > > >>>biodiesel. The site also talks about different > mixtures of biodiesel > >>> > >>> > >and > > > > > >>>regular diesel fuel. In my opinion the mixtures > might be the best > >>> > >>> > >bet for > > > > > >>>masking the "fish and chips" scent of a biodiesel > running vehicle.... > >>> > >>>Robert > >>> > >>>Jim Hoffman wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Folks, > >>>> > >>>> Someone had talked about putting a system > together to make their > >>>>own fuel from left over frier oil. I don't > remember who it was but > >>>>I'm wondering if it was successful.... The > article that Mike Frank > >>>>forwarded to the list talked about a heated > tank, starting on diesel > >>>>and switching over, blah, blah, blah... I > thought someone else was > >>>>talking about filtering/processing so you just > dumped it in the tank > >>>>and went. > >>>> > >>>> The weather is warming up so I'm planning on > getting the hole in > >>>>my floorpan fixed soon and might entertain > trying this. The car > >>>>isn't worth that much if it doesn't work ;) > >>>> > >>>>Thanks! > >>>> > >>>>Jim/ > >>>> > >>>>'83 240D > >>>> > >>>> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > >> Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, > they mold... > >> jesus, don't leave life without him, > please! > >>------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:13:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Welty Subject: Re[2]: Vegetable Oil fuel On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:45:55 -0400 Robert Chase wrote: > One wonders what oil change places do with their used motor oil. They > probably have to pay to have it removed. in places where it gets cold, lots of 'em have furnaces which can run on used motor oil. richard - -- Richard Welty rwelty-at-suespammers.org Averill Park Networking rwelty-at-averillpark.net Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com 518-573-7592 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:26:38 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Hmmm, Beer its not just for breakfast anymore? :) R. Kevin Pekarek wrote: >On Tue, Apr 29, 2003 at 06:46:53PM -0400, Robert Chase wrote: > > >>Did I forget to mention that deadly chemicals were another one of my >>reasons for not trying biodiesel :). >> >> > >No sense of adventure. > >PS - flouride is also toxic, so stop using toothpaste to brush your teeth, and >if you live in an area that flouridates its water, there's toxic chemicals in >the water, so stick to beer. :) > >K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:31:08 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: Vegetable Oil fuel Oops, Yet another reason. I have enough neighbors complaining about my lawn. Mixing chemicals in my back yard would certainly have lots of people from different branches of state and federal goverments poking around. Robert. hue wong wrote: >Just FYI for those who are starting out making >Bio-fuels in the backyard... > >Glycernin is a big part of a certian, very powerful, >explosive, in fact it's the hard element to get if you >are interested in making explosives and not bio-fuel. > > I mention this in case anyone from the ATF or local >sheriff's department starts spooking about, because >the little old lady down the street called the 1-800 >number because she saw you dressed up in NBC gear and >a gas mask when you're mixing your bio-fuel with Lye, >one sunny sunday afternoon... > >-hue- > > > > > >--- Robert Chase wrote: > > >>? >> >>R. >> >> >> >>Jim Hoffman wrote: >> >> >> >>>The last conversation on this topic a few weeks ago >>> >>> >>talked about >> >> >>>a *byproduct* of the process that had to be delt >>> >>> >>with also? What >> >> >>>was that? >>> >>>Jim/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>I liked the "popcorn" machine smell that come out >>>> >>>> >>of my >> >> >>>>VW Rabbit Diesel when I used old vegetable oil >>>> >>>> >>from the deepfat >> >> >>>>frier at home... :) of course it clogged my fuel >>>> >>>> >>filter pretty >> >> >>>>quick... ;) >>>> >>>>john >>>> >>>>At 02:20 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, Robert Chase wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Yep Biodiesel, >>>>> >>>>>Check out biodiesel.org for some more >>>>> >>>>> >>information. >> >> >>>>>There are two ways that I understand its done. >>>>> >>>>>The heated tank or the addition of the additives >>>>> >>>>> >>that make the veggie >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>oil >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>biodiesel. The site also talks about different >>>>> >>>>> >>mixtures of biodiesel >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>and >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>regular diesel fuel. In my opinion the mixtures >>>>> >>>>> >>might be the best >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>bet for >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>masking the "fish and chips" scent of a biodiesel >>>>> >>>>> >>running vehicle.... >> >> >>>>>Robert >>>>> >>>>>Jim Hoffman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Folks, >>>>>> >>>>>>Someone had talked about putting a system >>>>>> >>>>>> >>together to make their >> >> >>>>>>own fuel from left over frier oil. I don't >>>>>> >>>>>> >>remember who it was but >> >> >>>>>>I'm wondering if it was successful.... The >>>>>> >>>>>> >>article that Mike Frank >> >> >>>>>>forwarded to the list talked about a heated >>>>>> >>>>>> >>tank, starting on diesel >> >> >>>>>>and switching over, blah, blah, blah... I >>>>>> >>>>>> >>thought someone else was >> >> >>>>>>talking about filtering/processing so you just >>>>>> >>>>>> >>dumped it in the tank >> >> >>>>>>and went. >>>>>> >>>>>>The weather is warming up so I'm planning on >>>>>> >>>>>> >>getting the hole in >> >> >>>>>>my floorpan fixed soon and might entertain >>>>>> >>>>>> >>trying this. The car >> >> >>>>>>isn't worth that much if it doesn't work ;) >>>>>> >>>>>>Thanks! >>>>>> >>>>>>Jim/ >>>>>> >>>>>>'83 240D >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>>> http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ >>>> Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, >>>> >>>> >>they mold... >> >> >>>> jesus, don't leave life without him, >>>> >>>> >>please! >> >> >> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. >http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #997 *********************************