From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #1002 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Thursday, May 1 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1002 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: seven hundred ninety five bucks? RE: a buck two fifty? administrivia: notes on using this list Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 00:26:14 -0500 From: "Sam Williams" <1sam-at-io.com> Subject: RE: seven hundred ninety five bucks? John, I like your idea of a small filter doing the job overnight in the garage. My process has been much sloppier. There's a small Racor for <$100 at www.greasel.com. I might get one of those and do away with the cheap filters. It'll be simple to carry 5 gal of filtered oil to add to tank at fill-ups. I've been doing it all (and making a mess) in my driveway. Pump will pay for itself in 10-15 fill-ups. Of course, that's half a year's driving for some. Sam - -----Original Message----- From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:38 PM To: Sam Williams; diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: RE: seven hundred ninety five bucks? If I can just filter it externally and mix it in without clogging my filters, I'm game. I hate changing filters. ;) I sold my Racor filter setup, drat... On one Diesel I had the PO had plumbed in a filter setup out of a GM truck... worked well and gave a 2qt filter setup! I suppose I could just get a good filter setup with a water separator and mix in some vegetable oil every fill up.. I've got two 5 gallon jerry cans. I suppose I could run up to a food place, get five gallons, run a small pump setup in my shop to pass it through a filter to the other jerry can or even directly into my tank over night... hmmm... there's a thought... That might work... 5 x 1.69 = $8.45 savings per tank... won't take long to pay for the small pump and filter setup... Or another way of looking at this is 175 miles for the trouble of dealing with waste oil... :) If it gets cold enough to gel vegetable oil I can use a treatment or drive my Jeep. :) At 11:23 PM 4/30/2003 -0500, Sam Williams wrote: >John, > >I think you're making it too complicated. And, your price seems >awfully high. I'd guess $500 for a setup without the gold-plating. > >There is a whole range of biodiesel users from casual ones like me >to those who seek perfection and demand 100% biodiesel use. Rudolph >used peanut oil to fuel the engine he invented. Later, as diesel >engines became popular, gasoline was becoming very popular and people >liked the convenience of fuelling at 'gas stations.' It was natural >that the petroleum people would tailor a product of oil refining to >substitute for vegetable oils to fuel diesel engines. I believe >they make more profit selling petroleum based diesel fuel that they >would have by merely pumping vegetable oils at their stations. > >Modern diesels are more precise and tailored to petro-diesel fuel but >vegetable oil still works. According to the US govt www.afdc.nrel.gov, >any standard diesel engine can use a 20% biodiesel/80% petro-diesel mix >without modification. I simply filter old oil and pour into my tank, >never more than a 5 gal jug at a time. > >To use any oil, petro or bio, in temperatures below the gel point of >your fuel, you must heat the fuel or use an additive that prevents the >gelling. That is not the case with filtered vegetable oil mixed with >petro-diesel, except in cold weather. You can save the money for >extra tank, plumbing and heater unless you plan to recycle a wide >range of oils and animal fats, all times of year. > >If you do go with the heater, extra tank, complex valving, you must >still filter the old oil before pouring it in the tank. You can get >a Racor cleanable filter for $175 or a pack of 5 .5 micron disposable >(eventually) filters for about $25 at www.greasel.com. > >To avoid the hassle of extra tanks, valves and heaters, you can esterify >the waste cooking oils. That involves (after filtering) mixing methanol, >lye, heating and stirring and produces glycerine as a by-product. That >creates 'proper' bio-diesel. It is what you can buy commercially in >some locations--not, unfortunately here, yet. I'm not serious enough >about all this to work with dangerous chemicals in my back yard. > >Esterified bio-diesel is a direct replacement for petro-diesel. It does >not require separate tanks or complex plumbing. There is one caveat: >it can damage some fuel lines and seals in injection pumps. Mercedes has >always used materials that can handle it but some manufacturers have not. > >If you wait a bit, we are liable to see bio-diesel blends available >commercially in most places. It is the least expensive way to attain the >low sulphur goal of soon-to-take-effect environmental regs (or have they >been thrown out yet?). > >In short. Just filter and mix a little used cooking oil with standard >petro-diesel. You will save money and produce less harmful pollution. >If you must tinker, spend a few hundred dollars and re-plumb your fuel >system or create a chem lab in your garage. Or, wait a bit and buy it >at the corner convenience store. > >Sam > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net >[mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john >Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:26 PM >To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >Subject: seven hundred ninety five bucks? > > >heater, filter, a few valves and a tank... hmmm... >let's see what I have out in my carport... ;) > >http://www.greasecar.com/products.cfm > >a 5 gallon tank should fit ok in the trunk... splice >into the fuel system, a valve... not sure if I need a >heater here... filter will cost the most... > >question is, are they talking about straight used veggie oil, >or home brewed bio-diesel type? > >If I were to plumb in right after the primary filter and filter >it real well, this might not be that hard to do... :) maybe >get fancy and set it up with a powered relay, shut the car off >and it drops to the main fuel line... power up, have it time out, >then engage... maybe would need to set it up for a shutdown sequence >to switch back to diesel before cutting the power to prevent coking... > >am I onto something here or am I missing something? :) > >john ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:31:53 -0700 From: john Subject: RE: a buck two fifty? the Diesel shops around here have the Racors on the shelf for less then that... I just realized I have an Amsoil Bypass filter with a 1 quart 1 micron filter that I could plumb into a fuel pump and filter it on it's way to my fuel tank... :) straight from the Jerry can into the tank... need to figure out a way of shutting the pump off when done is all... maybe a timer? I'll just wait until my tank is half empty, fill with veggie oil, let it run down to empty, fill up, go half empty, veggie, empty, full, half, etc... I think that algorithm will work... :) just need a fuel pump and some old oil... :) that should work... I like the idea of adding a racor btwn the primary and secondary as an extra precaution... john At 12:26 AM 5/1/2003 -0500, Sam Williams wrote: >John, > >I like your idea of a small filter doing the job overnight in the >garage. My process has been much sloppier. There's a small Racor >for <$100 at www.greasel.com. I might get one of those and do >away with the cheap filters. It'll be simple to carry 5 gal of >filtered oil to add to tank at fill-ups. I've been doing it all >(and making a mess) in my driveway. Pump will pay for itself in >10-15 fill-ups. Of course, that's half a year's driving for some. > >Sam > >-----Original Message----- >From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:38 PM >To: Sam Williams; diesel-benz-at-digest.net >Subject: RE: seven hundred ninety five bucks? > > >If I can just filter it externally and mix it in without >clogging my filters, I'm game. I hate changing filters. ;) > >I sold my Racor filter setup, drat... > >On one Diesel I had the PO had plumbed in a filter setup >out of a GM truck... worked well and gave a 2qt filter setup! > >I suppose I could just get a good filter setup with a water >separator and mix in some vegetable oil every fill up.. I've >got two 5 gallon jerry cans. I suppose I could run up to a food >place, get five gallons, run a small pump setup in my shop to >pass it through a filter to the other jerry can or even directly >into my tank over night... hmmm... there's a thought... That >might work... > >5 x 1.69 = $8.45 savings per tank... won't take long to pay >for the small pump and filter setup... Or another way of looking >at this is 175 miles for the trouble of dealing with waste oil... :) > >If it gets cold enough to gel vegetable oil I can use a treatment >or drive my Jeep. :) > >At 11:23 PM 4/30/2003 -0500, Sam Williams wrote: > >John, > > > >I think you're making it too complicated. And, your price seems > >awfully high. I'd guess $500 for a setup without the gold-plating. > > > >There is a whole range of biodiesel users from casual ones like me > >to those who seek perfection and demand 100% biodiesel use. Rudolph > >used peanut oil to fuel the engine he invented. Later, as diesel > >engines became popular, gasoline was becoming very popular and people > >liked the convenience of fuelling at 'gas stations.' It was natural > >that the petroleum people would tailor a product of oil refining to > >substitute for vegetable oils to fuel diesel engines. I believe > >they make more profit selling petroleum based diesel fuel that they > >would have by merely pumping vegetable oils at their stations. > > > >Modern diesels are more precise and tailored to petro-diesel fuel but > >vegetable oil still works. According to the US govt www.afdc.nrel.gov, > >any standard diesel engine can use a 20% biodiesel/80% petro-diesel mix > >without modification. I simply filter old oil and pour into my tank, > >never more than a 5 gal jug at a time. > > > >To use any oil, petro or bio, in temperatures below the gel point of > >your fuel, you must heat the fuel or use an additive that prevents the > >gelling. That is not the case with filtered vegetable oil mixed with > >petro-diesel, except in cold weather. You can save the money for > >extra tank, plumbing and heater unless you plan to recycle a wide > >range of oils and animal fats, all times of year. > > > >If you do go with the heater, extra tank, complex valving, you must > >still filter the old oil before pouring it in the tank. You can get > >a Racor cleanable filter for $175 or a pack of 5 .5 micron disposable > >(eventually) filters for about $25 at www.greasel.com. > > > >To avoid the hassle of extra tanks, valves and heaters, you can esterify > >the waste cooking oils. That involves (after filtering) mixing methanol, > >lye, heating and stirring and produces glycerine as a by-product. That > >creates 'proper' bio-diesel. It is what you can buy commercially in > >some locations--not, unfortunately here, yet. I'm not serious enough > >about all this to work with dangerous chemicals in my back yard. > > > >Esterified bio-diesel is a direct replacement for petro-diesel. It does > >not require separate tanks or complex plumbing. There is one caveat: > >it can damage some fuel lines and seals in injection pumps. Mercedes has > >always used materials that can handle it but some manufacturers have not. > > > >If you wait a bit, we are liable to see bio-diesel blends available > >commercially in most places. It is the least expensive way to attain the > >low sulphur goal of soon-to-take-effect environmental regs (or have they > >been thrown out yet?). > > > >In short. Just filter and mix a little used cooking oil with standard > >petro-diesel. You will save money and produce less harmful pollution. > >If you must tinker, spend a few hundred dollars and re-plumb your fuel > >system or create a chem lab in your garage. Or, wait a bit and buy it > >at the corner convenience store. > > > >Sam > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > >[mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john > >Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:26 PM > >To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > >Subject: seven hundred ninety five bucks? > > > > > >heater, filter, a few valves and a tank... hmmm... > >let's see what I have out in my carport... ;) > > > >http://www.greasecar.com/products.cfm > > > >a 5 gallon tank should fit ok in the trunk... splice > >into the fuel system, a valve... not sure if I need a > >heater here... filter will cost the most... > > > >question is, are they talking about straight used veggie oil, > >or home brewed bio-diesel type? > > > >If I were to plumb in right after the primary filter and filter > >it real well, this might not be that hard to do... :) maybe > >get fancy and set it up with a powered relay, shut the car off > >and it drops to the main fuel line... power up, have it time out, > >then engage... maybe would need to set it up for a shutdown sequence > >to switch back to diesel before cutting the power to prevent coking... > > > >am I onto something here or am I missing something? :) > > > >john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 05:45:00 +0000 From: Richard Welty Subject: administrivia: notes on using this list Digest.Net mailing list "Meta FAQ" These general notes on using Digest.Net mailing lists are posted on the 1st and 15th of each month. This file may be found on the web at http://www.digest.net/general-notes.txt [last revised 5/1/02; removed list of spam strings, as i'm not the only one filtering on them -- rpw] Additional information on Digest.Net's spam policies may be found at http://www.digest.net/email-policy.html and http://www.digest.net/blocked.html Table of Contents 1. Why don't my postings go through? 2. Why can't I unsubscribe? 3. How do I post to the list? 4. Where are the archives? 5. What other lists are on digest.net? 6. Is there a web subscription form? 7. Why not move the lists to someplace like (egroups, topica,...)? 8. How do I contact the server adminstrator in an emergency? 9. What is Krusty Motorsports, anyway? The Meta-FAQ 1. Why don't my postings go through? There are several things that may interfere with postings making it to the list. a) Are you a member? Some read the ftp archives rather than receiving the list in email. Persons who read the list via email are automatically members, but readers of the FTP archive are not, and need to contact me (rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com) and get your name added to the list of "permitted senders". b) has your email address changed? some of you have had changes in your email address. your old address still works, and is still on the list, but your From: line shows a new address. this can happen for various reasons; you may have changed jobs or ISPs, and left a forward in place, or your IT staff may have fiddled with the email system. you will need to unsubscribe your old email address and subscribe the new one. this may require my involvement, if you can't figure out a way to get your old address off the list using the conventional majordomo commands. you can use the majordomo "which" command to probe for old addresses. send a message to majordomo-at-digest.net with one or more which commands in the body, one per line. to check for potential addresses for Fred Flinstone, formerly of bedrock.org, the following commands can be sent: which flintstone which bedrock note that the matches above might return any of the following addresses, if they appear in the list (in other words, you can use vagueness and incompleteness in your recollection as a tool): Fred.Flinstone-at-bedrock.org fflinstone-at-wilma.bedrock.org flintstonef-at-bedrock.com c) do you have more than one email address? if so, only the subscribed addresses can post, unless you contact me (see 1.a) above for relevant information) d) are you using (intentionally or accidentially) special "features" of your mail client? 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I am monitoring the logs on the server, and when I see TLS related problems, I manually place the problem destinations on a special exception list; however, this may delay email to the destination host until I make the exception. 2. Why can't I unsubscribe? a) are you using the right address? send to majordomo-at-digest.net, and the command format is unsubscribe list-name my-email-address b) has your email address changed? majordomo has no way of knowing that Fred.Flinstone-at-BarneyCo.com was once fflintstone-at-bedrock.org. you can check this with the which command (see 1.b) above for details) 3. How do I post to the list? You may use either one of two addresses: for example, the bmw-digest may be reached using either bmw-at-digest.net or bmw-digest-at-digest.net If you are using the correct addresses and your posts don't show up, check out the stuff in 1. above. 4. 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What is Krusty Motorsports, anyway? Krusty Motorsports (http:/www.krusty-motorsports.com/) is a business which is owned and operated by Richard Welty (rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com). Krusty is an S-Corporation in the State of New York. Krusty provides a number of Internet related services, such as mailing list, web sites, pop3/telnet accounts, and consulting on internet related issues. For more information, see the web site. ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1002 **********************************