From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #1025 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Sunday, May 18 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1025 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? Re: 190D economy Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? Re: comparisons 190D vs 300CD, et al Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 10:04:45 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? agree with vern, my last wabbit was an '80 with an '82 engine and 5 speed... it'd spin the front tires and easily bury the needle, still gave me 45+mpg... if I kept my foot out of the injectors I'd jump up over 50. :) should have kept that one... john At 08:38 AM 5/18/2003 -0500, Vernon Tuck wrote: >Mr. Hebert, > >As to the earlier Rabbits being "too small/slow"... > >Although I can't argue about your subjective evaluation of "too small" I >just want to point out that, compared to a 240D, they are blazing fast... >and will cruise easily at 75mph and go even faster. > >I have a fleet of diesel wabbits and a fleet of 240Ds.. It may come as a >surprise that I far prefer to dwive the wabbits. > >But I'd far prefer to wreck a 240D... if you get my drift. > >The great thing about the rabbits is they're hugely fuel efficient (42 - >50mpg), highly reliable, and - dirt cheap. The achilles heel is the timing >belt. Change it every 50K miles, change the oil every 3K, and you may well >get 300K miles out of one. > >Vernon >----- Original Message ----- >From: "J.B. Hebert" >To: >Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 9:05 AM >Subject: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? > > > > So, due to events out of my control, I am forced to start commuting 150 > > miles a day. I was looking at various options like the VW TDI (too > > expensive) or an earlier Rabbit (too small/slow) and find myself really > > liking the 190D with the 2.5 liter turbo diesel. I know the 2.2 would >give > > me a little better economy, but I want a little better performance that I > > feel it can offer. So here's the deal: I really want a 2.5 with the 5 > > speed. However, I cannot find a single one for sale anywhere. Are they > > really that rare, or are people just not selling them? While I'm at it, > > are there any "gotchas" with the 190 that I should be aware of? My main > > experience is with the W123 platform. If anyone has any leads on a nice > > 2.5 with a 5 speed, or ideas on where to look, I'd really appreciate > > it. If I can't find one, I'll probably settle for an automatic, but I'd > > still love a 5 speed. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > J.B. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:25:06 -0400 From: "Michael Aimino" Subject: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? Just to jump in with my story, my 1981 Rabbit was faster off the line than my 300D, got 44 mpg (50 on the interstate), and showed 331k miles on the meter when it went to the boneyard. Of course, like Mr. Tuck states, I'd rather crack up a 300D than a Rabbit. No that I'd really want to crack up at all... Mike A On 18 May 03, at 8:38, Vernon Tuck wrote: > Mr. Hebert, > > As to the earlier Rabbits being "too small/slow"... > > Although I can't argue about your subjective evaluation of "too small" > I just want to point out that, compared to a 240D, they are blazing > fast... and will cruise easily at 75mph and go even faster. > > I have a fleet of diesel wabbits and a fleet of 240Ds.. It may come as > a surprise that I far prefer to dwive the wabbits. > > But I'd far prefer to wreck a 240D... if you get my drift. > > The great thing about the rabbits is they're hugely fuel efficient (42 > - 50mpg), highly reliable, and - dirt cheap. The achilles heel is the > timing belt. Change it every 50K miles, change the oil every 3K, and > you may well get 300K miles out of one. > > Vernon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J.B. Hebert" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 9:05 AM > Subject: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? > > > > So, due to events out of my control, I am forced to start commuting > > 150 miles a day. I was looking at various options like the VW TDI > > (too expensive) or an earlier Rabbit (too small/slow) and find > > myself really liking the 190D with the 2.5 liter turbo diesel. I > > know the 2.2 would > give > > me a little better economy, but I want a little better performance > > that I feel it can offer. So here's the deal: I really want a 2.5 > > with the 5 speed. However, I cannot find a single one for sale > > anywhere. Are they really that rare, or are people just not selling > > them? While I'm at it, are there any "gotchas" with the 190 that I > > should be aware of? My main experience is with the W123 platform. > > If anyone has any leads on a nice 2.5 with a 5 speed, or ideas on > > where to look, I'd really appreciate it. If I can't find one, I'll > > probably settle for an automatic, but I'd still love a 5 speed. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:49:33 -0400 From: "Michael Aimino" Subject: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? By the way, I have a VW diesel timing belt hanging on a peg in my garage, if anyone needs it. Also have a oil pan gasket, injector heat shields, a door handle, rear view mirror, and some misc. pieces and parts if anyone is in need. OK, back on topic... On 18 May 03, at 13:25, Michael Aimino wrote: > Just to jump in with my story, my 1981 Rabbit was faster off the line > than my 300D, got 44 mpg (50 on the interstate), and showed 331k miles > on the meter when it went to the boneyard. Of course, like Mr. Tuck > states, I'd rather crack up a 300D than a Rabbit. No that I'd really > want to crack up at all... > > Mike A > > On 18 May 03, at 8:38, Vernon Tuck wrote: > > > Mr. Hebert, > > > > As to the earlier Rabbits being "too small/slow"... > > > > Although I can't argue about your subjective evaluation of "too > > small" I just want to point out that, compared to a 240D, they are > > blazing fast... and will cruise easily at 75mph and go even faster. > > > > I have a fleet of diesel wabbits and a fleet of 240Ds.. It may come > > as a surprise that I far prefer to dwive the wabbits. > > > > But I'd far prefer to wreck a 240D... if you get my drift. > > > > The great thing about the rabbits is they're hugely fuel efficient > > (42 - 50mpg), highly reliable, and - dirt cheap. The achilles heel > > is the timing belt. Change it every 50K miles, change the oil every > > 3K, and you may well get 300K miles out of one. > > > > Vernon > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J.B. Hebert" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 9:05 AM > > Subject: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? > > > > > > > So, due to events out of my control, I am forced to start > > > commuting 150 miles a day. I was looking at various options like > > > the VW TDI (too expensive) or an earlier Rabbit (too small/slow) > > > and find myself really liking the 190D with the 2.5 liter turbo > > > diesel. I know the 2.2 would > > give > > > me a little better economy, but I want a little better performance > > > that I feel it can offer. So here's the deal: I really want a > > > 2.5 with the 5 speed. However, I cannot find a single one for > > > sale anywhere. Are they really that rare, or are people just not > > > selling them? While I'm at it, are there any "gotchas" with the > > > 190 that I should be aware of? My main experience is with the > > > W123 platform. If anyone has any leads on a nice 2.5 with a 5 > > > speed, or ideas on where to look, I'd really appreciate it. If I > > > can't find one, I'll probably settle for an automatic, but I'd > > > still love a 5 speed. > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:04:08 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? I was certainly not bashing the Rabbit... it is an excellent vehicle. It's still on my list of possible vehicles. I have driven several and they do what they do very well. But at 6' 2", they feel a little cramped for me. The later Golfs seem to be a little more spacious. Yes, they will cruise at 75, but the non-turbo models still take a while to get up to that speed. I'll agree that compared to a 240, they are rockets. However, I'm used to my old Euro-spec 300TD which would cruise at 105-110 MPH all day long and get up there pretty quick. Additionally, I have been finding that people know that they can get a fair amount for their diesel VW of any type. I haven't seen one go for near book value in some time. I can still get a 190D for close to book. Thanks for the info. J.B. At 08:38 AM 5/18/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Mr. Hebert, > >As to the earlier Rabbits being "too small/slow"... > >Although I can't argue about your subjective evaluation of "too small" I >just want to point out that, compared to a 240D, they are blazing fast... >and will cruise easily at 75mph and go even faster. > >I have a fleet of diesel wabbits and a fleet of 240Ds.. It may come as a >surprise that I far prefer to dwive the wabbits. > >But I'd far prefer to wreck a 240D... if you get my drift. > >The great thing about the rabbits is they're hugely fuel efficient (42 - >50mpg), highly reliable, and - dirt cheap. The achilles heel is the timing >belt. Change it every 50K miles, change the oil every 3K, and you may well >get 300K miles out of one. > >Vernon >----- Original Message ----- >From: "J.B. Hebert" >To: >Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 9:05 AM >Subject: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? > > > > So, due to events out of my control, I am forced to start commuting 150 > > miles a day. I was looking at various options like the VW TDI (too > > expensive) or an earlier Rabbit (too small/slow) and find myself really > > liking the 190D with the 2.5 liter turbo diesel. I know the 2.2 would >give > > me a little better economy, but I want a little better performance that I > > feel it can offer. So here's the deal: I really want a 2.5 with the 5 > > speed. However, I cannot find a single one for sale anywhere. Are they > > really that rare, or are people just not selling them? While I'm at it, > > are there any "gotchas" with the 190 that I should be aware of? My main > > experience is with the W123 platform. If anyone has any leads on a nice > > 2.5 with a 5 speed, or ideas on where to look, I'd really appreciate > > it. If I can't find one, I'll probably settle for an automatic, but I'd > > still love a 5 speed. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:11:51 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Re: 190D economy I wasn't sure myself, so I went to www.fueleconomy.gov to get some data. According to www.fueleconomy.gov, the '85 190D with the 2.2 and an auto gets 30 city and 33 highway. The same car with a 5 speed gets 31 city 39 highway. An '86 190D with the 2.5 liter and an auto gets 30 city and 34 highway, so it's a little better. However the same car with a 5 speed gets 29 city and 37 highway, so in manual form it's not quite as good. They don't go back to 1980, but an '85 300CD (turbo) gets 22 city, 25 highway. I believe you mentioned your '80 was not turbocharged, so it might do a little better. Bottom line, a heavier car will use more fuel. And a turbo variant, while probably using less fuel than a normally aspirated vehicle with the same HP and torque, still uses more fuel than a similar car making half as much power (190D 2.5 vs 190D 2.2, for example). These are just my findings. Take them with a grain of salt. I have heard of more tha 1 190D 2.5 getting over 40 MPG. I figured this site would give some good baselines, however. Regards, J.B. Hebert At 08:15 AM 5/18/2003 -0700, you wrote: >At 10:05 AM 5/18/2003 -0400, J.B. Hebert wrote: >>I know the 2.2 would give me a little better economy, but I want a little >>better performance that I feel it can offer. > > >the 2.2L gets better economy then the 2.5L TD? > >how about the 3.0L in the 123's, I thought the turbo's did better... > >Trying to figure out which Diesel Benz I'm going to keep... :) >the '80 300CD or the '85 190D... both should get good economy... > >The last 5 speed 190D I saw was last seen heading south with a guy >named Kevin... ;) > >john > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 11:24:10 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 10:05:04AM -0400, J.B. Hebert wrote: > So, due to events out of my control, I am forced to start commuting 150 > miles a day. I was looking at various options like the VW TDI (too > expensive) or an earlier Rabbit (too small/slow) and find myself really > liking the 190D with the 2.5 liter turbo diesel. I know the 2.2 would give > me a little better economy, but I want a little better performance that I > feel it can offer. So here's the deal: I really want a 2.5 with the 5 > speed. However, I cannot find a single one for sale anywhere. Are they > really that rare, or are people just not selling them? While I'm at it, > are there any "gotchas" with the 190 that I should be aware of? My main > experience is with the W123 platform. If anyone has any leads on a nice > 2.5 with a 5 speed, or ideas on where to look, I'd really appreciate > it. If I can't find one, I'll probably settle for an automatic, but I'd > still love a 5 speed. Well, they do exist (at least in 2.2L form) - I bought one in seattle and drove it home. And burned less fuel going from seattle to snohomish, then from snohomish to redwood city than I would in the crown victoria just going one way to redding. And that's with a leaky injector, spare tranny in the trunk, going 70-75 most of the way down (yeah, derrick, 3000 rpm in 5th is 70 mph not 60 ). I don't know if 2.5 5 speeds exist in normally aspirated form, and am pretty sure that the 2.5 turbo didn't come with a five speed, in the 300D form or the 190D form. All the 190Ds I have seen for sale are automatics, but I found one in seattle, so I flew up to get it. AFA gotchas, Derick posted a list of routine maintenance he performs on his. Obviously avoid overheating the 2.2 or 2.5 because of all of the aluminum, and keep an eye on timing chain stretch because of the aluminum timing chain cover. The ignition cylinder tends to get hard to turn and jam, causing you (or you to have to pay someone) to drop the steering column and go at it with a sawzall. If you find a 190D with two keys instead of just one, someone has already done this. The springs in the seat like to crack. My five speed needing the tranny replacement is a fluke - the trannies are apparently solid as a rock. The person who sold me the tranny I need to put in my 190 was blown away when I told him it had cracked gears and a scraping whine that was very pronounced in first and reverse, and noticeable in second or third. AFA volkswagen diesels being slow, I have never driven one, but one of my friends swears by them. Right now he has a pickup, and I've followed him in the crown victoria to find him cruising down the freeway going 85. And, since he runs it off waste vegetable oil, I always get really hungry anytime I follow him - it makes my car smell like fresh french fries :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (2.2, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 11:41:41 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: comparisons 190D vs 300CD, et al On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 12:27:04AM -0700, john wrote: > the 300CD has class... even rolling it down my drive in the dark > it felt good... :) oh, a 190 has class as well. Even with the original headlights, my family couldn't believe the car was as old as it was. That body, with minor changes, was used into the nineties. It carries with it the class of a newer benz. > the 190D has that K car look to it... nice little car, economical > and all that... but... I have trouble fitting my hands in places > to work on it... I've done injector and glow plug swaps in the > parking lot on a 123 and 126, wouldn't think of trying that on > the 201 unless I had a lot of time... nothing is easy to get > to on it... the 123 chassis is simpler to work on. :) K car? I don't think so. The 190 didn't save mercedes. Then again mercedes didn't need saving :) I'll agree that it's a little cramped working on the 601 compared to the 617, but it's a very compact package, and that goes with the territory. In theory, you shouldn't need to spend much time under the hood, so this shouldn't be much of a deciding factor. It wasn't for me, and I usually don't buy cars that I can't sit under the hood with the engine :) > oh, yeah, and this 300cd has a 40 gallon fuel tank too! :) That means > I could drive it about 1,200 miles on a trip... unfortunately my > bladder won't manage that much coffee... ;) HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA Lessee... 1200 miles at 60 mph... 20 hours in the saddle? No thanks. > well, if I get the 300CD put together and driveable and sell the 190D I'd > have almost enough for two months mortgage payments... not sure I could > get that much for the 300CD. :) My wife doesn't like either one, so > it'll come down to which one will get the most cash and keep a roof over > our heads until I land another full time job. :) well, money talks, and nobody can argue that. even still, remember you have most of the kinks worked out of the 190, and will still have to sort through the 300CD. Isn't the 300's engine a little tired? If so, the price of a new engine (or dropping in a turbodiesel and tranny) will eat up a good chunk of the difference in offing the 300CD as is and selling the 190 and sinking more money into the 300CD. Don't get me wrong. My hobby through college was chaining up some hulk to the old wagon and dragging it home, then sinking oodles of free time into wandering around boneyards and replacing parts on the hulk and making it driveable. Quite a few of them were certain to become tin cans if I didn't save them. And a good number of them weren't great ideas in hindsight. Just looking at the pics of the 300CD, I got the feeling that so far, you had a good deal, but could EASILY get in WAY over what you could get out of it if you wanted to sell it. > yeah, but this is the only light yellow one with a 40 gallon tank I've found > that I can afford. ;) There is an '85 that's been for sale for over a year > now... it needs tlc, but it is a turbo. ;) I haven't seen that many 300CDs > out there... There's tons of them down here, and a good one could be had for around $3500. AND you wouldn't need $100 worth of simple green to knock all them mold and moss off it either :) > The other bummer is that the windshield is damaged. :( Anyone know how > hard it is to swap a windshield in a 123 chassis? I've replaced pretty much every window in a car but the windshield. I think it's too easy to break a windshield upon installation, so I pay someone to do it. If it breaks on them, I am out far less than if I had broke it then had to get another one :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (2.2, 5spd) ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1025 **********************************