From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #1026 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Monday, May 19 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1026 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? Wrench size Re: 190D economy Re: 190D economy Re: 190D economy Re: 190D economy Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:01:10 -0700 From: "DerickAA" Subject: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? <<<<). >>>>> Dohhhh! :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:02:17 -0500 From: "Vernon Tuck" Subject: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? I certainly didn't take it as rabbit bashing... and even if it was it wouldn't offend me. But I truly love 'em. For the last 21 years I've been running a business in Houston. After I married and we had children we moved to a little German town about 80 miles away. At the beginning I was making the commute in a fleet of late 70s Cadillacs. Considering their size, weight and generation, at 16 - 17 mpg they were astoundingly fuel efficient. Nevertheless, when you drive 50K miles a year that's a pile of money. Once I started driving the rabbits I had 2/3rds of a pile of money to burn on other stuff. The new generation of VW TDI engines are no more fuel efficient than the early 80s A1 diesels. They just make a lot less noise and have a lot more get up and go. You might consider an '84 Jetta or about the same generation Quantum if you can find one. They were turbocharged from the factory. Since the Jetta is just a rabbit with a trunk you might find that to be an entirely suitable alternative. Of course, the Quantum evolved into the Passat. It is a substantially heavier car. VT - ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.B. Hebert" To: "Vernon Tuck" Cc: Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 1:04 PM Subject: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? > I was certainly not bashing the Rabbit... it is an excellent vehicle. It's > still on my list of possible vehicles. I have driven several and they do > what they do very well. But at 6' 2", they feel a little cramped for > me. The later Golfs seem to be a little more spacious. Yes, they will > cruise at 75, but the non-turbo models still take a while to get up to that > speed. I'll agree that compared to a 240, they are rockets. However, I'm > used to my old Euro-spec 300TD which would cruise at 105-110 MPH all day > long and get up there pretty quick. Additionally, I have been finding that > people know that they can get a fair amount for their diesel VW of any > type. I haven't seen one go for near book value in some time. I can still > get a 190D for close to book. > > Thanks for the info. > > J.B. > > At 08:38 AM 5/18/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >Mr. Hebert, > > > >As to the earlier Rabbits being "too small/slow"... > > > >Although I can't argue about your subjective evaluation of "too small" I > >just want to point out that, compared to a 240D, they are blazing fast... > >and will cruise easily at 75mph and go even faster. > > > >I have a fleet of diesel wabbits and a fleet of 240Ds.. It may come as a > >surprise that I far prefer to dwive the wabbits. > > > >But I'd far prefer to wreck a 240D... if you get my drift. > > > >The great thing about the rabbits is they're hugely fuel efficient (42 - > >50mpg), highly reliable, and - dirt cheap. The achilles heel is the timing > >belt. Change it every 50K miles, change the oil every 3K, and you may well > >get 300K miles out of one. > > > >Vernon > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "J.B. Hebert" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 9:05 AM > >Subject: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? > > > > > > > So, due to events out of my control, I am forced to start commuting 150 > > > miles a day. I was looking at various options like the VW TDI (too > > > expensive) or an earlier Rabbit (too small/slow) and find myself really > > > liking the 190D with the 2.5 liter turbo diesel. I know the 2.2 would > >give > > > me a little better economy, but I want a little better performance that I > > > feel it can offer. So here's the deal: I really want a 2.5 with the 5 > > > speed. However, I cannot find a single one for sale anywhere. Are they > > > really that rare, or are people just not selling them? While I'm at it, > > > are there any "gotchas" with the 190 that I should be aware of? My main > > > experience is with the W123 platform. If anyone has any leads on a nice > > > 2.5 with a 5 speed, or ideas on where to look, I'd really appreciate > > > it. If I can't find one, I'll probably settle for an automatic, but I'd > > > still love a 5 speed. > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:06:31 -0500 From: "Vernon Tuck" Subject: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? Well guys, I'm guilty of calling Mr. Hebert "Mr. Hebert". But puleeze... call me Vern! Know whut I mean? ha ha http://www.tucklings.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Aimino" To: Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 12:25 PM Subject: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? > Just to jump in with my story, my 1981 Rabbit was faster off the line > than my 300D, got 44 mpg (50 on the interstate), and showed 331k > miles on the meter when it went to the boneyard. Of course, like Mr. > Tuck states, I'd rather crack up a 300D than a Rabbit. No that I'd > really want to crack up at all... > > Mike A > > On 18 May 03, at 8:38, Vernon Tuck wrote: > > > Mr. Hebert, > > > > As to the earlier Rabbits being "too small/slow"... > > > > Although I can't argue about your subjective evaluation of "too small" > > I just want to point out that, compared to a 240D, they are blazing > > fast... and will cruise easily at 75mph and go even faster. > > > > I have a fleet of diesel wabbits and a fleet of 240Ds.. It may come as > > a surprise that I far prefer to dwive the wabbits. > > > > But I'd far prefer to wreck a 240D... if you get my drift. > > > > The great thing about the rabbits is they're hugely fuel efficient (42 > > - 50mpg), highly reliable, and - dirt cheap. The achilles heel is the > > timing belt. Change it every 50K miles, change the oil every 3K, and > > you may well get 300K miles out of one. > > > > Vernon > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J.B. Hebert" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 9:05 AM > > Subject: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? > > > > > > > So, due to events out of my control, I am forced to start commuting > > > 150 miles a day. I was looking at various options like the VW TDI > > > (too expensive) or an earlier Rabbit (too small/slow) and find > > > myself really liking the 190D with the 2.5 liter turbo diesel. I > > > know the 2.2 would > > give > > > me a little better economy, but I want a little better performance > > > that I feel it can offer. So here's the deal: I really want a 2.5 > > > with the 5 speed. However, I cannot find a single one for sale > > > anywhere. Are they really that rare, or are people just not selling > > > them? While I'm at it, are there any "gotchas" with the 190 that I > > > should be aware of? My main experience is with the W123 platform. > > > If anyone has any leads on a nice 2.5 with a 5 speed, or ideas on > > > where to look, I'd really appreciate it. If I can't find one, I'll > > > probably settle for an automatic, but I'd still love a 5 speed. > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 19:27:12 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? I haven't been called Mr. Hebert in a long time. Usually only when I'm in trouble. ;) J.B. is fine. J.B. At 02:06 PM 5/18/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Well guys, I'm guilty of calling Mr. Hebert "Mr. Hebert". > >But puleeze... call me Vern! > >Know whut I mean? > >ha ha >http://www.tucklings.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael Aimino" >To: >Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 12:25 PM >Subject: Re: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? > > > > Just to jump in with my story, my 1981 Rabbit was faster off the line > > than my 300D, got 44 mpg (50 on the interstate), and showed 331k > > miles on the meter when it went to the boneyard. Of course, like Mr. > > Tuck states, I'd rather crack up a 300D than a Rabbit. No that I'd > > really want to crack up at all... > > > > Mike A > > > > On 18 May 03, at 8:38, Vernon Tuck wrote: > > > > > Mr. Hebert, > > > > > > As to the earlier Rabbits being "too small/slow"... > > > > > > Although I can't argue about your subjective evaluation of "too small" > > > I just want to point out that, compared to a 240D, they are blazing > > > fast... and will cruise easily at 75mph and go even faster. > > > > > > I have a fleet of diesel wabbits and a fleet of 240Ds.. It may come as > > > a surprise that I far prefer to dwive the wabbits. > > > > > > But I'd far prefer to wreck a 240D... if you get my drift. > > > > > > The great thing about the rabbits is they're hugely fuel efficient (42 > > > - 50mpg), highly reliable, and - dirt cheap. The achilles heel is the > > > timing belt. Change it every 50K miles, change the oil every 3K, and > > > you may well get 300K miles out of one. > > > > > > Vernon > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "J.B. Hebert" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 9:05 AM > > > Subject: Any 190D 5 Speeds Out There? > > > > > > > > > > So, due to events out of my control, I am forced to start commuting > > > > 150 miles a day. I was looking at various options like the VW TDI > > > > (too expensive) or an earlier Rabbit (too small/slow) and find > > > > myself really liking the 190D with the 2.5 liter turbo diesel. I > > > > know the 2.2 would > > > give > > > > me a little better economy, but I want a little better performance > > > > that I feel it can offer. So here's the deal: I really want a 2.5 > > > > with the 5 speed. However, I cannot find a single one for sale > > > > anywhere. Are they really that rare, or are people just not selling > > > > them? While I'm at it, are there any "gotchas" with the 190 that I > > > > should be aware of? My main experience is with the W123 platform. > > > > If anyone has any leads on a nice 2.5 with a 5 speed, or ideas on > > > > where to look, I'd really appreciate it. If I can't find one, I'll > > > > probably settle for an automatic, but I'd still love a 5 speed. > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:35:58 -0700 From: "Paul Schwartz" Subject: Wrench size Ok, so I was planning to replace my flex plates this weekend, I everything ready and then I decide to look at the manual. I guess I have to loosen the sleeve nuts first and I don't have any wrenches that are big enough. No, I am not going to grab a couple of pipe wrenches and use them. So, does anyone know what size wrenches are needed to loosen the sleeve nuts on a 77 240D (123 chassis)? or, should I just buy two very large crescent wrenches? Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 18:43:46 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: 190D economy the data I had is out of Nitske's book and http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/Diesel-Benz-MPG.html my worst on my 190d has been about 30, best so far 35... right now I'm at 1/2 tank and almost 270 miles... just adjusted the timing... gauge isn't trustworthy enough so it'll take dang near a week to find out the truth... :) john At 02:11 PM 5/18/2003 -0400, J.B. Hebert wrote: >I wasn't sure myself, so I went to www.fueleconomy.gov to get some >data. According to www.fueleconomy.gov, the '85 190D with the 2.2 and an >auto gets 30 city and 33 highway. The same car with a 5 speed gets 31 >city 39 highway. An '86 190D with the 2.5 liter and an auto gets 30 city >and 34 highway, so it's a little better. However the same car with a 5 >speed gets 29 city and 37 highway, so in manual form it's not quite as >good. They don't go back to 1980, but an '85 300CD (turbo) gets 22 city, >25 highway. I believe you mentioned your '80 was not turbocharged, so it >might do a little better. Bottom line, a heavier car will use more >fuel. And a turbo variant, while probably using less fuel than a normally >aspirated vehicle with the same HP and torque, still uses more fuel than a >similar car making half as much power (190D 2.5 vs 190D 2.2, for example). > >These are just my findings. Take them with a grain of salt. I have heard >of more tha 1 190D 2.5 getting over 40 MPG. I figured this site would >give some good baselines, however. > >Regards, > >J.B. Hebert > >At 08:15 AM 5/18/2003 -0700, you wrote: >>At 10:05 AM 5/18/2003 -0400, J.B. Hebert wrote: >>>I know the 2.2 would give me a little better economy, but I want a >>>little better performance that I feel it can offer. >> >> >>the 2.2L gets better economy then the 2.5L TD? >> >>how about the 3.0L in the 123's, I thought the turbo's did better... >> >>Trying to figure out which Diesel Benz I'm going to keep... :) >>the '80 300CD or the '85 190D... both should get good economy... >> >>The last 5 speed 190D I saw was last seen heading south with a guy >>named Kevin... ;) >> >>john >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >> http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ >> Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >> jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >>------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:23:01 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: 190D economy On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 06:43:46PM -0700, john wrote: > my worst on my 190d has been about 30, best so far 35... right > now I'm at 1/2 tank and almost 270 miles... just adjusted the > timing... gauge isn't trustworthy enough so it'll take dang > near a week to find out the truth... :) So, how far did you move it? I know compared to mine it looked WAY off. You mentioned you found some trick to getting it to move. 270/7 is about 38 and a half... Certainly more reasonable than 30 :) If you do end up getting that much, I'd worry that you cranked too much timing in. I know an olds diesel did some pretty uncool things if you gave it a quarter of a degree too much, don't know what a benz diesel would do, but I imagine it will be more expensive :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (2.2, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:31:15 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: 190D economy At 10:23 PM 5/18/2003 -0700, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 06:43:46PM -0700, john wrote: > > my worst on my 190d has been about 30, best so far 35... right > > now I'm at 1/2 tank and almost 270 miles... just adjusted the > > timing... gauge isn't trustworthy enough so it'll take dang > > near a week to find out the truth... :) > >So, how far did you move it? I know compared to mine it looked WAY off. You >mentioned you found some trick to getting it to move. well, the pump isn't supposed to rotate. :) there was a screw that is adjusted... I took a picture, when I get a chance I'll post it. I gave it 180 degrees worth of turn... basically took the rachet and rotated it from right to left (CCW) one half turn.. idle shot up about 200 rpm, performance is much better, no smoke, seems fine... I need to get my fan system and a/c working though, sitting in line at Krispy Kreme I noticed the temp gauge climbing a bit, I don't think it's related to the timing, but I'll keep an eye on it. >270/7 is about 38 and a half... Certainly more reasonable than 30 :) cool. btw, what did you get, or do you know? >If you do end up getting that much, I'd worry that you cranked too much >timing in. I know an olds diesel did some pretty uncool things if you gave it >a quarter of a degree too much, don't know what a benz diesel would do, but >I imagine it will be more expensive :) actually the benz pump is probably easier to find... ;) >K - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:55:10 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: 190D economy On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 10:31:15PM -0700, john wrote: > >So, how far did you move it? I know compared to mine it looked WAY off. You > >mentioned you found some trick to getting it to move. > > well, the pump isn't supposed to rotate. :) there was a screw that > is adjusted... I took a picture, when I get a chance I'll post it. That would explain why we couldn't get it to move any :) > I gave it 180 degrees worth of turn... basically took the rachet > and rotated it from right to left (CCW) one half turn.. idle > shot up about 200 rpm, performance is much better, no smoke, seems > fine... I need to get my fan system and a/c working though, sitting > in line at Krispy Kreme I noticed the temp gauge climbing a bit, I > don't think it's related to the timing, but I'll keep an eye on it. well, if these were gas motors, I'd say that fan shroud that your removed is probably part of the problem. I noticed my gauge climb a touch when I was climbing siskyou pass, but it didn't get to 90 so I wasn't worried. I drive a ford with fussy head gaskets, so I watch the temperature gauge a little more closely than I probably should :) > >270/7 is about 38 and a half... Certainly more reasonable than 30 :) > > cool. > > btw, what did you get, or do you know? Odometer is off considerably, so it's hard to say for certain. I got gas near oakland, or, then got gas just past dunnigan, ca. Mapquest says they're 382.7 miles apart, put in about 9.9 gallons, which calculates out to 38.65 mpg. Oakland, being in oregon, I did not fill up the tank. When I fill something up, I usually wash the windows while I'm waiting for it to fill up (habit from driving a station wagon with a v8 - you had plenty of time to kill and plenty of windows), so I more than likely filled the tank farther than the guy in oakland did. That, and I don't know that I trust mapquest completely :) Hosed the interior down using two cans of industrial odor neutralizer. It has worked before on a couple of other cars that were previously owned by smokers (no, Derick doesn't smoke, in fact, the smoke smell seemed to bug him more than it does me), so we'll see where this gets me. I've got more of those christmas tree shaped things for the mirror (the car is starting to look like that scene in "Seven" where the cops find the "Sloth" guy - there's three up there already ), then that failing I can always go to the grocery outlet and get a cheap bag of apples to cut up. Gotta order some parts from Rusty tomorrow, might actually get the tranny swapped next weekend, and want to put a clutch and new TO bearing in while I have the tranny down. There's a couple other minor little things too. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (2.2, 5spd) ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1026 **********************************