From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #1053 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, June 4 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1053 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: Fleet Reduction Sale Re: Fleet Reduction Sale Re: An oldie for sale. Re: An oldie for sale. RE: An oldie for sale. Re: Fleet Reduction Sale Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 19:54:54 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: Fleet Reduction Sale See my comments inline Kevin Pekarek wrote: >On Tue, Jun 03, 2003 at 11:20:05AM -0700, Paul Schwartz wrote: > > >>If we were logical about it we'd sell our cars and buy Toyotas. >> >> > >Actually, a mercedes diesel is a more logical purchase than a toyota.: > - fuel is less elastic in price (otherwise truckers drive 18 wheelers up the > stairs at the capitol in sacramento, and yes, it has happened before), and > recently has been less expensive than gasoline by around 15-20 cents per > gallon (around here, and down the I-5 corridor from washington, at least) > - cars require far less maintenance than a gasser > - car is not designed to fall apart at the end of a warranty period (though > some can argue that the newer diesel-benzes may not have this trait) > - chances of walking away from a wreck are far higher in a mercedes than some > japanese ziploc bag > They may be small but they do have modern technology on their side. My Mercedes 300SD was "state of the art" in 1982 which makes it pretty good in comparison to modern cars. My 2002 Honda Accord has 4 airbags lots of other saftey technology to make it safe. I would suspect they are about the same saftey wise. The MB has a saftey cage where the Accord does not but the Accord has the edge with airbag technology. While in 1982 the airbag was an "option" on the 300SD they were rather rare and my car lacks one. I have had this discussion with a Volvo friend who thinks my SD is "unsafe" because its old. He was suprised to find that most of the saftey technology his car got in the 1990's my car already has. > - chances of not getting into a wreck are far better in a mercedes than in > some understeering underbraked (to save money) japanese toaster on wheels > My Accord has Antilock brakes. My Mercedes does not. Believe it or not they are about the same handling wise. However if I had to choose which car to do something stupid in it would be the Accord. The Accord has more instant power on demand and is much smaller and more nimble to avoid an accident. As well I hate the Accord and would not mind watching it go away to the salvage yard on a flatbed whereas I would probably not sleep for a while if my Mercedes got damaged. > - most of the diesel models represented on this list can be bought for much > less than a two year old camry, will outlive the two year old camry by > several orders of magnitude, and still run better than the yota, handle > better, and get better mileage. *looks at his coke can and sees an 86 camry* > I used to buy exclusively Honda's for several years before my Mercedes and my latest and most dissapointing Honda. 200k seems to be about the "realistic limit" out of one and some are better than others. I had an 83 Accord that was quite troublesome and had to put an engine in it and I had a 1988 Prelude SI that ran like a top and was fully functional and had nothing break up until 211k when it was wrecked. Of all the ones I have owned I sorta knew in the back of my mind that 200k was the limit on the cars. When you start getting to the 200k mark things start breaking and breaking rapidly. Several of my cars lost their A/C units right at 200k as well as power steering pumps alternators and other engine accesories. One of my cars a 1991 Accord blew a radiator hose and cracked the $600 radiator in the process. In comparing the two vehicles I have to say this. The cars starting with a VIN of J were MUCH more reliable and dependable than the VINS starting in 1 or 2. The Hondas are "moron's cars" you put gas in them change the oil bring them to the Honda place ocassionally and thats all you have to do to maintain a cheap dependable car. The Mercedes requires a little extra effort. You have to learn about diesel fuel and fuel filters and the fuel priming system in order to realistically operate the car. You have to meet a mechanic and set up a relationship so that you can get your car serviced without paying Mercedes Benz service rates and having your car butchered by mechanics that have never seen a diesel. As well most of the MB diesels have at least 150k on them from the original owners and have "minor issues" due to the extra technology they have that the Jap mobiles dont. So you have 2 choices a limited 200k vehicle that is trouble free and your kid could maintain as their first car or a car that will last essentially forever that requires a bit of extra thought and preperation for any kind of repair. One has to keep in mind that you cant just roll up in your MB diesel to any gas station and get a belt changed without concequences yet you can do that in a Jap car without too much problem. > - plus you're driving a MERCEDES, and not some TOYOTA (or honda). Need I say > more? > Hmmm I dunno if you would have the same opinion if you lived in Atlanta and saw brand new SL's with gold plated licence plates that say "GHETTO" on them and people running around with MB emblems on gold chains around their necks. I like my Mercedes because its a beautiful example of german engineering that can withstand the constant of time not because its exclusive expensive or popular. The sports stars and rap folks in the Atlanta area ALL have new Benzes which are of course all tackified to the hilt. When I drive down the street the normal people dont notice me but the hip hop culture does. Its a bit annoying to say the least :). > >K > >PS - John - keep the *-at-!^$%^ 190D :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:17:35 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: Fleet Reduction Sale On Tue, Jun 03, 2003 at 07:54:54PM -0400, Robert Chase wrote: > They may be small but they do have modern technology on their side. My > Mercedes 300SD was "state of the art" in 1982 which makes it pretty good > in comparison to modern cars. My 2002 Honda Accord has 4 airbags lots > of other saftey technology to make it safe. I would suspect they are > about the same saftey wise. The MB has a saftey cage where the Accord > does not but the Accord has the edge with airbag technology. While in > 1982 the airbag was an "option" on the 300SD they were rather rare and > my car lacks one. I have had this discussion with a Volvo friend who > thinks my SD is "unsafe" because its old. He was suprised to find that > most of the saftey technology his car got in the 1990's my car already > has. Unfortunately, air bags only go so far, regardless of if you have one of them or four of them. While the bumper sticker on my friend's K30 dually is a bit antiquated in thinking (and perhaps wrong) - "YOU are my crumple zone", there is a good deal of truth to it. Sure, a K30 vs. a wall or head-on into a semi isn't going to yield pleasant results, but it vs. something smaller (air bags or not) is going to cause problems for the something smaller. Having seen what happens when a civic gets hit by a straight truck, I will never EVER own a civic. Yeah, I saw what happened to the passengers too. Yeah, it had airbags and abs. Having seen a similar wreck with a corolla, I won't own one of those either. This is a long list, believe me. :) > >- chances of not getting into a wreck are far better in a mercedes than in > > some understeering underbraked (to save money) japanese toaster on wheels > > My Accord has Antilock brakes. My Mercedes does not. Believe it or not > they are about the same handling wise. However if I had to choose which > car to do something stupid in it would be the Accord. The Accord has > more instant power on demand and is much smaller and more nimble to > avoid an accident. As well I hate the Accord and would not mind > watching it go away to the salvage yard on a flatbed whereas I would > probably not sleep for a while if my Mercedes got damaged. ABS actually stops the car slower. Sure, for 95% of the population who just panics and lays into the brakes, ABS is a good thing. But, if you have standard brakes and don't lock them, you'll stop faster. The accord has a gnarly understeer designed in (and you know this cause you have one), which makes it fairly easy to leave the road if you are doing something stupid. Sure, the diesel doesn't exactly have the throttle oversteer (unless you have alec's old 300D that would get second gear scratch), but it doesn't push like a bulldozer either. And doesn't your accord have brake problems? > The Hondas are "moron's cars" you put gas in them change the oil bring > them to the Honda place ocassionally and thats all you have to do to > maintain a cheap dependable car. The Mercedes requires a little extra > effort. You have to learn about diesel fuel and fuel filters and the > fuel priming system in order to realistically operate the car. You have > to meet a mechanic and set up a relationship so that you can get your > car serviced without paying Mercedes Benz service rates and having your > car butchered by mechanics that have never seen a diesel. As well most > of the MB diesels have at least 150k on them from the original owners > and have "minor issues" due to the extra technology they have that the > Jap mobiles dont. True, but for us on this list, we've overcome the diesel learning curve. And the car is worth it, as is the hunting for a mechanic (though in the bay area, finding a mechanic for ANYTHING that won't screw you over is a feat in itself). > One has to keep in mind that you cant just roll > up in your MB diesel to any gas station and get a belt changed without > concequences yet you can do that in a Jap car without too much problem. It's been a LONG time since I've been to a gas station and haven't been scared of the people in the shop that pretend to be mechanics. No thanks. :) And I don't see too many ghetto benzes around here. People around here ghetto out the escalades, or down in slo county, stay south of san luis obispo if they plan to ghetto something out because they're afraid of the rednecks in north county :) K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 20:35:27 -0500 From: "Vernon Tuck" Subject: Re: An oldie for sale. I wonder if y'all will educate me... How much do they have in common with the 240D cars? Are they generally similar although on an earlier style body? Tanks! VT - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derickam AA" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 4:51 PM Subject: Re: An oldie for sale. > Used to have one of these sold it to a gentleman over near Spokane. > This thing is a tank, less cannon. :) I named it "Panzer" (loosley > translates to armor) > A smooth comfortable ride though. > > Just pray the heater blower motor does not go out, that is a major pain to > replace. > > > > Derick Amburgey > Automated Control Specialist > Port Of Seattle/SeaTac Airport/Satellite Train System > Amateur Radio Callsign: K7DXX > List "Mom" of Diesel-Benz reflector > 1985 Mercedes 190D "Tuti" 280,000 Mi > 1984 Mercedes 190D "Charity" 160,000 Mi > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Jim Steere" > To: > Subject: An oldie for sale. > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:31:57 -0400 > > It's not mine....it belongs to a customer. It ain't cheap enough to make > money on (or I'd buy it...) but it's a nice old car if you're wantin' one. > '72 220D sedan, stick, no power ANYTHING. Replacement engine, runs good, > drives good, decent rubber, A/C non-functional. I put new glow plugs in it, > adjusted valves and IP timing, rebuilt the vacuum pump, and serviced it. > It's > got some rust, but not bad....nothing structural.....nothing serious. It > spent most of it's life in NC......and I know that it hasn't seen winter for > at least five years, because I've been tinkering on it that long for 'em. > > They want $1200....it's setting in the parking lot of my shop in Crystal MI > (Central Lower MI). If anyone's interested, call and I can get you contact > info. > > Jim Steere > Everything Automotive > Crystal, MI > www.usedbenzparts.com > (989)235-4000 > > [demime 0.99c.7 removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of > 72220d3.jpg] > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 18:55:54 -0700 From: "Derickam AA" Subject: Re: An oldie for sale. I think the 240d's began with the 115/114 chasis just like the 220d. So I am sure the blowers in 240's are a pain in the keister also. I think the 240's went to the 123 chasis in the 80's. I am a 201(190d) guy now so don't take my word for it. Derick Amburgey Automated Control Specialist Port Of Seattle/SeaTac Airport/Satellite Train System Amateur Radio Callsign: K7DXX List "Mom" of Diesel-Benz reflector 1985 Mercedes 190D "Tuti" 280,000 Mi 1984 Mercedes 190D "Charity" 160,000 Mi - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Vernon Tuck" To: "Derickam AA" , , Subject: Re: An oldie for sale. Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 20:35:27 -0500 I wonder if y'all will educate me... How much do they have in common with the 240D cars? Are they generally similar although on an earlier style body? Tanks! VT - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derickam AA" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 4:51 PM Subject: Re: An oldie for sale. > Used to have one of these sold it to a gentleman over near Spokane. > This thing is a tank, less cannon. :) I named it "Panzer" (loosley > translates to armor) > A smooth comfortable ride though. > > Just pray the heater blower motor does not go out, that is a major pain to > replace. > > > > Derick Amburgey > Automated Control Specialist > Port Of Seattle/SeaTac Airport/Satellite Train System > Amateur Radio Callsign: K7DXX > List "Mom" of Diesel-Benz reflector > 1985 Mercedes 190D "Tuti" 280,000 Mi > 1984 Mercedes 190D "Charity" 160,000 Mi > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Jim Steere" > To: > Subject: An oldie for sale. > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:31:57 -0400 > > It's not mine....it belongs to a customer. It ain't cheap enough to make > money on (or I'd buy it...) but it's a nice old car if you're wantin' one. > '72 220D sedan, stick, no power ANYTHING. Replacement engine, runs good, > drives good, decent rubber, A/C non-functional. I put new glow plugs in it, > adjusted valves and IP timing, rebuilt the vacuum pump, and serviced it. > It's > got some rust, but not bad....nothing structural.....nothing serious. It > spent most of it's life in NC......and I know that it hasn't seen winter for > at least five years, because I've been tinkering on it that long for 'em. > > They want $1200....it's setting in the parking lot of my shop in Crystal MI > (Central Lower MI). If anyone's interested, call and I can get you contact > info. > > Jim Steere > Everything Automotive > Crystal, MI > www.usedbenzparts.com > (989)235-4000 > > [demime 0.99c.7 removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of > 72220d3.jpg] > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 21:17:01 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: An oldie for sale. Visually, you can always check http://home.hiwaay.net/~gbf/mbmodels.html for pix and years by chassis type. A 72 220D is a 115, as opposed to the 123 series that replaced them around 1977. The 114 and 115 were basically the same thing, but diesels were called 115s. A 115 is a less modern car than a later 123 diesel. I think somebody already mentioned the strange routine to start them. Think back to when gassers had manual choke controls in the cabin, and add a couple more things. I'm not sure if the 114/115 used the swing-axle independent rear suspension of the earlier 110 fintails or the much more advanced and forgiving trailing arm setup seen on the 123 and 126 cars (which was superceded by the 5-link setup which first appeared in all those boxy little W201 things, then moved up to the W124, and I think is still the rear suspension in use on all current Benz sedans). I also believe a 115 would have more "real" metal than even a 123, but they are a little more susceptible to rust. 123s gained a few design features that made them easier to maintain in some ways (I'm thinking especially of the blower motor). Maybe MB was trying to make sure taxi fleet buyers would love the new model. Short version, although I've never owned a 114/115 (I've had a 110 and two 123s): Less luxury and refinement, more plain and simple thorough engineering. Alec > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Vernon Tuck > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 8:35 PM > To: Derickam AA; jim-at-msdra.com; diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: An oldie for sale. > > > I wonder if y'all will educate me... > > How much do they have in common with the 240D cars? Are they generally > similar although on an earlier style body? > > Tanks! > VT ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 22:14:46 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: Fleet Reduction Sale Kevin Pekarek wrote: >On Tue, Jun 03, 2003 at 07:54:54PM -0400, Robert Chase wrote: > > >>They may be small but they do have modern technology on their side. My >>Mercedes 300SD was "state of the art" in 1982 which makes it pretty good >>in comparison to modern cars. My 2002 Honda Accord has 4 airbags lots >>of other saftey technology to make it safe. I would suspect they are >>about the same saftey wise. The MB has a saftey cage where the Accord >>does not but the Accord has the edge with airbag technology. While in >>1982 the airbag was an "option" on the 300SD they were rather rare and >>my car lacks one. I have had this discussion with a Volvo friend who >>thinks my SD is "unsafe" because its old. He was suprised to find that >>most of the saftey technology his car got in the 1990's my car already >>has. >> >> > >Unfortunately, air bags only go so far, regardless of if you have one of them >or four of them. While the bumper sticker on my friend's K30 dually is a bit >antiquated in thinking (and perhaps wrong) - "YOU are my crumple zone", there >is a good deal of truth to it. Sure, a K30 vs. a wall or head-on into a semi >isn't going to yield pleasant results, but it vs. something smaller (air bags >or not) is going to cause problems for the something smaller. > >Having seen what happens when a civic gets hit by a straight truck, I will >never EVER own a civic. Yeah, I saw what happened to the passengers too. Yeah, >it had airbags and abs. Having seen a similar wreck with a corolla, I won't >own one of those either. This is a long list, believe me. :) > My friend with the Volvo is a Physician. Most accident deaths are not crush related injuries as even an Austin Mini in most normal accidents will leave someone enough room to live. Most accident deaths are due to a very delicate part of the heart tearing causing blood to fill the body cavity and you bleed to death internally within a matter of minutes. Just because your car is large and strong in structure does not mean you will live through the collision. Mercedes Benz was the first car maker to use impact absorbing car bodies and had the patent on it (which they did not enforce as it even makes Mercedes Benz drivers safer to have other cars with impact absorbing bodies). The human body was not meant to instantly stop from highway speeds. I have lived through a collision in a 1990 Honda Civic Hatchback with a 1970's chevy impala with only a broken arm. I was traveling at experssway speeds when the other car was stopped in the middle of the road with mechanical difficulties. While being crushed to death is a possibility it would take a semi or other abnormally large vehicle to do it and quite honestly one of those vehicles even against an S class Mercedes your still gambling with your life either way. > > > >>>- chances of not getting into a wreck are far better in a mercedes than in >>> some understeering underbraked (to save money) japanese toaster on wheels >>> >>> >>My Accord has Antilock brakes. My Mercedes does not. Believe it or not >>they are about the same handling wise. However if I had to choose which >>car to do something stupid in it would be the Accord. The Accord has >>more instant power on demand and is much smaller and more nimble to >>avoid an accident. As well I hate the Accord and would not mind >>watching it go away to the salvage yard on a flatbed whereas I would >>probably not sleep for a while if my Mercedes got damaged. >> >> > >ABS actually stops the car slower. Sure, for 95% of the population who just >panics and lays into the brakes, ABS is a good thing. But, if you have standard >brakes and don't lock them, you'll stop faster. The accord has a gnarly >understeer designed in (and you know this cause you have one), which makes it >fairly easy to leave the road if you are doing something stupid. Sure, the >diesel doesn't exactly have the throttle oversteer (unless you have alec's old >300D that would get second gear scratch), but it doesn't push like a bulldozer >either. > >And doesn't your accord have brake problems? > Heh heh... Which brake problem.... I have had two different ones so far... Understeer is much easier to control than oversteer my friend :). Just add power and you have the front wheels spinning and pulling you into the turn. I dont care much for oversteer because with a ton of power (dont have to worry about that with a diesel benz) you can easily loose it. Im not a big fan of antilock brakes but in a panic situation they help with steering not stopping the car faster. > > > >>The Hondas are "moron's cars" you put gas in them change the oil bring >>them to the Honda place ocassionally and thats all you have to do to >>maintain a cheap dependable car. The Mercedes requires a little extra >>effort. You have to learn about diesel fuel and fuel filters and the >>fuel priming system in order to realistically operate the car. You have >>to meet a mechanic and set up a relationship so that you can get your >>car serviced without paying Mercedes Benz service rates and having your >>car butchered by mechanics that have never seen a diesel. As well most >>of the MB diesels have at least 150k on them from the original owners >>and have "minor issues" due to the extra technology they have that the >>Jap mobiles dont. >> >> > >True, but for us on this list, we've overcome the diesel learning curve. And >the car is worth it, as is the hunting for a mechanic (though in the bay area, >finding a mechanic for ANYTHING that won't screw you over is a feat in itself). > > > >>One has to keep in mind that you cant just roll >>up in your MB diesel to any gas station and get a belt changed without >>concequences yet you can do that in a Jap car without too much problem. >> >> > >It's been a LONG time since I've been to a gas station and haven't been scared >of the people in the shop that pretend to be mechanics. No thanks. :) > Dunno. I miss the idea that on a long trip I could just stop at one of these places for a broken belt or other simple mechanical issue that might pop up without having to watch them like a hawk. > >And I don't see too many ghetto benzes around here. People around here ghetto >out the escalades, or down in slo county, stay south of san luis obispo if >they plan to ghetto something out because they're afraid of the rednecks in >north county :) > Turn on MTV or something dude :). There is not a single rap video that goes by without a shot of the singers Benz in there somewhere. > >K ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1053 **********************************