From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #1091 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Tuesday, July 1 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1091 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: the '87 300D Turbo mileage Re: the '87 300D Turbo mileage Re: the '87 300D Turbo Re: '87 300D Turbo Re: theoretical question :) '87 300d pix Re: theoretical question :) RE: '87 300d pix Re: need oil leak diagnostic help Re: Radios to fit W123? Re: Mercedes Benzes and Dodge Cummins diesels Re: need oil leak diagnostic help Re: need oil leak diagnostic help Re: the '87 300D Turbo mileage Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:32:24 -0700 (PDT) From: hue wong Subject: Re: the '87 300D Turbo mileage this one has 280,000 miles on it. ;) Funny how benz owners don't even really blink an eye at that kind of mileage. I just read that Honda recomends complete motor rebuilds at 125k miles. Go benz! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:56:03 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: the '87 300D Turbo mileage On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, hue wong wrote: >-->this one has 280,000 miles on it. ;) >--> >--> >-->Funny how benz owners don't even really blink an eye >-->at that kind of mileage. I just read that Honda >-->recomends complete motor rebuilds at 125k miles. >--> >-->Go benz! hey, my '87 Jeep Cherokee with the 4.0L has 244,000 miles... it's showing it's age, but will still pull my trailer with a load and is doing just fine. :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:36:13 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: the '87 300D Turbo On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 01:31:03PM -0700, john wrote: > the problem wasn't the 3.0L, it was the 3.5L that came out afterwards, > the 2.5L is similar to the 3.0L, but was developed because of emissions > issues... at least that's what I've read. What I've read is that the problem was most certainly the 3.5L six, but that the 3.0L six was also a problem child. The 3.5 really liked to cause expensive repairs to happen, but the 3.0 was marginally more reliable. I suppose the general rules apply, though: - don't get it hot - if it gets hot, go back in time and don't do what caused it to get hot - that failing, get the plastic ready for a big hit at the mechanic shop - that failing, pray rusty can get you a head for a reasonable price. - regardless, there is no mercedes engine that can surpass the OM617 in terms of robustness. > >-->powerful. The simple reason is that the 6 was a warranty nightmare for > >-->Mercedes. Almost every car out there with this engine has blown at least > >-->one head gasket by 100k miles, and many have warped and/or cracked > > this one has 280,000 miles on it. ;) which means that the problem happened already and was repaired before (and any number of these could have happened), or pending doom is... well, pending. Also, like Alec said, you're looking at replacing bushings and so forth. > the 3.0L in this '87 300d really scoots... smooth, responsive, controllable... > I was hooked during the test drive. :) true, and the buick 340-4 hauled serious ass. but it liked to blow head gaskets too and LOVED to ping with the switch of the air conditioning controls. That doesn't mean you won't have fun with one, but it will be a pain to own. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (2.2, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:49:13 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: '87 300D Turbo On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 12:38:03PM -0700, john wrote: > I've been waiting. :) :-P > oh yeah, it's got a few issues... And list consensus is that a cheap mercedes is far more expensive than a book-priced mercedes well maintained. > not worried... parts are available, getting a good price... maybe. > >-->> the guy was asking $3950, got him down to $3k > > actually got it at $2900 plus 8.8% sales tax... don't get me started on the government collecting a sales tax on a good that they previously collected sales tax on. :-/ > not likely... but we'll see... the car is driveable right now... runs > great... sunroof works so phooey on the a/c if it can't be fixed, the > electrical stuff isn't too serious (for me). I hate electrical. especially since I have a few problems keeping colors straight. > just checked on parts... not bad at all... plenty of 'em too... I'm getting > to know the guys at Aurora on a first name basis. :) that's never a good thing ;) > so far the prognosis from both phil smart and aurora that these are fine > automobiles... well, there isn't a doubt that a w124 is a fine vehicle. > the issues are clear, the cars are simply not here... been looking and looking. > any 300d I've seen are all up in the $8K plus range... and most of them with > the 2.5L TD. The 3.0L TD isn't as common... > > well, find me one within 200 miles from Seattle... :) well, if I hear of one, I'll let you know. :) > remember that this car is totally driveable right now... will replace the > front tire and make it a spare, first business is to fix the front end... hehehe. my wrecked 86 colony park is also totally driveable. all it needs is a doghouse and header panel. (looks roughly like your 300CD did). I take it you gave up on a turbo 123 coupe? K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (2.2, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:11:49 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: theoretical question :) On Sat, Jun 28, 2003 at 03:01:35PM -0400, Robert Chase wrote: > Its a Mercedes. Even the ones in the worst condition are salvagable as > long as your willing to put the TLC into them. Remember, however, what TLC truly stands for in the older-car business. It's not Tender Loving Care, but Truck Loads o' Cash. :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (2.2, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:50:23 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: '87 300d pix http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/Johns-Diesels/87-300d/87-300d.jpg http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/Johns-Diesels/87-300d/ john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:31:23 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: theoretical question :) On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 08:14:28PM -0700, john wrote: > Ok, here's one... > > (this will be very subjective, kevin, I already know your answer, but > say it anyway. ;) well, okay. Even though I already replied to this on another thread... > If you had a choice between the following, which would you pick: :) > > 1) 1985 300D (turbo) light yellow 208k for about $4500 > 2)1991 300d (2.5l td) white/gray 270k for about $9990 > 3) 1987 300d (3.0L td) silver (blue int) 280k for $3950 > 4) 1985 190D (2.2L) light yellow 220k - paid for > 5) 1980 300d (3.0L) light yellow 277k - on ebay (needs some TLC) > 6)1995 E300 (td) unkn color - unknn mileage forgot the # at work - $15k > 7) 1984 300D (3.0L td) needs timing chain and "some work" - $350 > > Objective: a nice, clean, economical, nice riding, quiet, yet > powerful car that doesn't move you four inches toward the back > seat when shifting from first to second, has a little bit of class > and will get the approval of my co-pilot and wife of 28 years... :) well, ordinarily I'd take a close look at bachelorette number three, but know that we know more about her, that's a tough one. From that list, and assuming number four, while a wonderful choice, isn't quite what you were looking for, I'd probably take a close look at number 1, which is arguably the best car on that list. Besides, it keeps with that light yellow thing you have going :) I guess I need to remove "John, keep the 190D" from my tagline, since, even though it is a great car, it isn't doing what john wants, and well, that's why I'll probably be offing the motorhome for a trailer, much to my younger brother's disappointment. Cool truck, but not what I want anymore. I'm *STILL* surprised there isn't an "8) 300CD turbo to be named later" on that list. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (2.2, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:53:45 -0700 From: "Jeremy Bowne" Subject: RE: '87 300d pix John If you were me, and I had the money, I probably would give him the $2,900 and run. Don't let him get second thoughts about the price of the car. That really is a nice car.... worth the time and effort. IMHO See if the ABS light is just fluid level. Go test out the ABS... and see if it kicks in. If not, who cares, ABS is overrated, and not THAT expensive to repair. Even if you put 2 grand in that car, its well worth it. That car you could easily (IMHO) sell for $6,000 (or at least I would buy it for that much if everything worked) Do YOU want another project? Because obviously it is... than again, you can buy a perfect specimen and find something wrong to fix. That's the whole fun of these cars... hehe. Jeremy Bowne 1980 450SEl 1980 240D - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 3:50 PM To: diesel-benz list Subject: '87 300d pix http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/Johns-Diesels/87-300d/87-300d.jpg http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/Johns-Diesels/87-300d/ john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:57:02 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Re: need oil leak diagnostic help I would pull the breather tube and check to make sure the oil isn't coming out of there. If so, you've got excessive blowby caused by broken rings or bad cylinder walls. Some blowby is normal on a high milage engine, but it sounds like you have more than normal. Not much that can be done other than living with it or rebuilding the engine. If the oil is coming from the turbo, it is likely that the turbo seals are shot. They can likely be replaced without too much hassle. Good luck. J.B. At 05:28 PM 6/30/2003 -0400, you wrote: >I have a diagnostic question for the group: > >Problem: '84 300D w/ 617.952 motor ~222 kmiles....excessive oil is moving >through the air cleaner housing/ turbo path and is making a mess of things. > I have oil oozing out of the joint where the turbo cool air output is > blown into the intake manifold. There is also ooze at the connection > flange for the EGR valve. This ooze is proceeding down the right side of > the engine and in a few weeks it will probably begin to drip from the engine. >I've had a slight problem for years now where oil vapor from the valve >cover has been messing up the inside of the air filter housing but >recently things have progressed to the point of also making an external >mess, which I'm not as willing to tolerate. I would not say that I have >an oil consumption problem. I'm wondering if shaft seals in the turbo are >now starting to leak oil. I've noticed that the turbo shaft is not as >easy to turn (by hand) as it once was. Does the group have any collective >experience with this problem? > >TIA- > >Steve Morelen > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 08:58:04 +1000 From: Guy Carpenter Subject: Re: Radios to fit W123? At 08:41 AM 30/06/2003 -0700, Jerome Kaidor wrote: >*** As I remember, ALL the wires are available at the fader. You just >do whatever's necessary to lift that particular panel - I think it's the >whole panel surrounding the gearshift - and identify speaker wires by >"ticking" them with a "D" cell. Actually, I think they're even marked. >And each speaker pair has a unique little two-pin barrel connector. > > Then, it's a piece of cake to feed the wires past the gearshift up into >the radio console. Strange - that wasn't my experience. Maybe it varies by year model? Here's an extract from a post I made here on Sept 8 2001 which describes what I found (and what I couldn't find). Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:41:30 -0700 To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net From: Guy Carpenter Subject: Rear speaker wires Sender: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [snip] I put a new stereo in my 82 300D today, and once again hope for some advice from the crew here. Still love the beast, despite the bleeding knuckles. Where are the rear speaker wires routed? I found both front speakers - red/black for left, green/black for right, routed behind and under the ashtray. I expected to be able to pick up all 4 pairs at the front/rear fader in the center console, but the harness that feeds it has only 6 - wires: L & R inputs from the head unit, and L & R outputs for front and back - ie only one of the wires for each speaker. I couldn't trace the wiring harness as it disappears into the rats nest beside the shift lever. I pulled both rear mats and looked at the cables in the wiring ducts; I found vacuum lines for the door locks, some misc. single wires, but nothing that looked like the front speaker wires (which are conventional two-core speaker cable). [snip] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:53:04 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: Mercedes Benzes and Dodge Cummins diesels On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 10:53:41PM -0500, Vernon Tuck wrote: > The bad: > The 5 speed transmission. It jumps out of 5th (overdrive) if you let off > the accelerator. Supposedly, the trans was rebuilt 50K miles ago. hm. > The ugly. > According to the seller there's a "trick" to shifting through the gears. I > definitely haven't mastered the trick. Sometimes you'll shift the lever out > of a gear but the transmission will stay there. The result is that you have > to dick around with it to get it into neutral or back to the gear you lost. I'll put my money on shift linkage. I don't recall an NV4500 has external linkage (like a 190D five speed), or internal linkage, like a toploaderish ford three speed (like one would find in a 3 speed jeep). Linkage is OBVIOUSLY causing the trick to shifting, no doubt about that. If the linkage doesn't allow fifth to engage all the way, then it is possible that the power applied to the input shaft is holding the tranny in gear. When you back off, the lack of as much pressure allows the gear to disengage. If you do clutchless shifting, you back off the throttle ever so slightly, and a light nudge on the shifter (usually we're talking less than a 5 ft-lb tug at the top of the shifter) will cause the tranny to come out of gear. May want to spend some time at the library, online, or talking with dodge/chevy guys (or seeing if advanceadapters.com has a diagram, since jeepers and yoters run those) to see how the linkage works on an NV4500. Could save you lots of time and effort. > Now I again have the means to tow our fleet of 240D MERCEDES BENZES around > the yard. For a second, I thought you were going to end with "and we drove a 240D out to go get it". :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:56:38 -0700 From: "Paul Schwartz" Subject: Re: need oil leak diagnostic help > problem. I'm wondering if shaft seals in the turbo are now starting to leak > oil. I've noticed that the turbo shaft is not as easy to turn (by hand) as > it once was. Does the group have any collective experience with this > problem? I have no experience as mine doesn't have a turbo, but this sure sounds like turbocharger seals to me. Does it have any axial play (up and down)? If so it's probably time to rebuild the TC. Any binding in rotation isn't good either. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:45:08 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: need oil leak diagnostic help I see people pointing at the turbo unit, and that makes sense, but the engine blowby can also be valve guide seals. At 02:28 PM 6/30/03 , Steve Morelen wrote: >I have a diagnostic question for the group: > >Problem: '84 300D w/ 617.952 motor ~222 kmiles....excessive oil is moving >through the air cleaner housing/ turbo path and is making a mess of things. > I have oil oozing out of the joint where the turbo cool air output is > blown into the intake manifold. There is also ooze at the connection > flange for the EGR valve. This ooze is proceeding down the right side of > the engine and in a few weeks it will probably begin to drip from the engine. >I've had a slight problem for years now where oil vapor from the valve >cover has been messing up the inside of the air filter housing but >recently things have progressed to the point of also making an external >mess, which I'm not as willing to tolerate. I would not say that I have >an oil consumption problem. I'm wondering if shaft seals in the turbo are >now starting to leak oil. I've noticed that the turbo shaft is not as >easy to turn (by hand) as it once was. Does the group have any collective >experience with this problem? > >TIA- > >Steve Morelen > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Greg Fiorentino Vancouver USA gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net '84 300D Turbo '79 300TD '85 F-350 6.9 crew cab ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:38:17 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: the '87 300D Turbo mileage Uhm, Where did you hear that from? Before I started buying Benzes I did Honda's I have owned cars up to 211k without engine problems. The failures I saw were alternators and other engine accessories. The 211k car was a 1988 Prelude Si that I would have kept longer until my brother wrecked it. In fact there is a Civic in my driveway right now that belongs to a friend with 198k on it and still runs great. Quite honestly though I think that the car industry as a whole has started making disposable cars. Insurance companies are teamed up with the car manafacturers as well as with state and local governments to make cars more disposable than they have been in the past. Emission control laws that make it illegal to even sell a non passing car as well as insurance companies eager to "total" cars with even minor damage so they can resell them with rebuildable titles to companies that rebuild them and turn them in auto auctions. Manafacturers that make cars with 8 airbags at 1k each that add to the expense of repairs when a collision occur as well as making their car "self destruct" when it hits 100k. Team that up with 0 percent financing to blow more of these disposable pieces of garbage out on the road and artificially lower the value of used cars because of used car interest. Eventually it will be common to have a car that only lasts until 60k miles (just like all the domestic manafacturers) Robert. hue wong wrote: >this one has 280,000 miles on it. ;) > > >Funny how benz owners don't even really blink an eye >at that kind of mileage. I just read that Honda >recomends complete motor rebuilds at 125k miles. > >Go benz! > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1091 **********************************