From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #1103 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Friday, July 11 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1103 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: more info on 90's wiring harness problems Ack! No brakes! RE: Ack! No brakes! Re: euro lights 2003 quality/reliability survey W123 steering stabilizer RE: 2003 quality/reliability survey RE: W123 steering stabilizer W123 engine out Re: W123 engine out RE: W123 engine out Re: Ack! No brakes! Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:11:01 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: more info on 90's wiring harness problems My 82 300sd has euro lights. Would not want it any other way. I dont care for the early version of the american headlamps. I would want a w116 with euro lamps because the round ones in my estimation are probably horrible. The H4 lamps in my 20 year old benz are brighter than the headlights on my 2002 Accord. Jeremy Bowne wrote: >Put some square euro lights on that beastly w116 and it looks..well.. a few >years newer ;) those round American lights make the thing look OLD. > >My opinion! > > >Jeremy > >1980 240D >1980 450SEL > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On >Behalf Of Robert Chase >Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:49 PM >To: Alec Cordova >Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >Subject: Re: more info on 90's wiring harness problems > >Ah, > >Thats not too horrible. The thought of taking the car completely apart >and pulling door panels and interior trim for a creeky rattling car that >would never be possibly the same came to mind. > >Yes The newer cars with computer controlled engines are problematic. My >brother's Nissan had emissions problems and we could never trace the >source of the problem. The "learning" engines are crap. My friends >$50k Volvo C70 Convertible left him stranded in the parking deck of the >hospital while on call because of a "softare glitch" it seems that the >atmospheric pressure and tempature and humidity had been in a >relationship not seen while testing in Sweden causing the car to not to >know what to do. They had to completely flash the ECU to get the car to >start again. > >Perhaps I should go older rather than newer :). Thanks for the tip on >the w116 I have always liked the style of the w116 although it is >getting a bit dated by todays standards :) > >Robert. > >Alec Cordova wrote: > > > >>First off, while the problem is bad, it ain't as bad as it might sound. >> >> >It's > > >>not the entire vehicle wiring harness that has to be replaced, just the >>engine wiring harness, so everything is under the hood, with fifty >> >> >bejillion > > >>connectors, all routed back to the spot behind the battery where the main >>engine computer lives. I think replacement is booked at no more than four >>hours. >> >>The root of the problem was the insulation on the wires, and some change >>brought about by environmental concerns. I'm not sure if they were using a >>different blend to make the insulation, or a slightly different process, >> >> >but > > >>the resulting insulation ended up deteriorating more than anticipated, >>especially in hot climates. This ends up giving you little shorts here and >>there. It doesn't happen to everybody, but if it starts happening, it >>apparently is easier to replace the whole engine wiring harness than to try >>to chase the spots that need fixing and the other spots that will soon need >>fixing. >> >>The replacement harness runs about 800 bucks, and they have fixed the >>insulation. Since I've heard that 96 was the last year to show the symptom, >>I assume they detected and fixed it by then, so any documented replacement >>after that point should not fail prematurely again. >> >>Many owners were able to get some help in the repair from dealerships and >>MBNA. We do not have a long term financial relationship with Mercedes of >>Austin or the Maund Group that owns them and several other dealerships, we >>bought the car used in Houston, the car was 6 or 7 years old, and we had >>over 125000 miles when we detected the problem. I didn't even try to get >>anything from them. I had a competent mechanic friend do the work. I should >>have taken it to a Benz specialist or the dealer. I think there are a >> >> >couple > > >>extra things to do besides just remove and replace, probably involving >>retraining the engine computer. Ours never again ran right, my wife needed >>reliable wheels, and she no longer trusted the car, even if attempted to >>have the work redone by a specialist, so we traded it and took the beating. >> >> >> >>2800 sounds pretty good for that 87 300E. >> >>Also worthy of consideration might be a 70's 450SEL W116. That motor is as >>sound as an OM617 from what I hear. >> >>Alec ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:57:20 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Ack! No brakes! OK, so I was going to get new tires on my '82 300CD. About a 30 minute drive, all highway. Get to the bottom of the ramp and everything is fine. Light changes and I accelerate away... come to the next light and the pedal goes to the floor. I manage to pump it up a bit and get it stopped. Pull off into a parking lot and check it out. Can't find any physical evidence of a leak anywhere, and the master cylinder is topped off with fluid. I limp home (again, 30 minutes highway). I coast up the ramp, expecting to need significant braking distance, and the brakes are fine again. On the short jaunt through town back to the house they show no signs of a problem. Once back in the garage, I stand on the brakes for a good 30 seconds and they don't sink at all. Just like new. So, here's the thing... I've had brakes go out on other cars, and exhibit the same initial problems... however, in each case, the fluid level was down significantly in the master cylinder, and they NEVER made a recovery like this. Inevitably, I had a bad line or the like which was allowing fluid to escape. I'm worried because I'm afraid the car will do this again, either in heavy traffic or with someone else driving it... any ideas on what might cause this intermittent problem? Of course I'm planning a complete inspection this weekend, as well as a full bleed, but I'm looking for any pointers you might have. Thanks in advance. J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:13:47 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: RE: Ack! No brakes! That seems reasonable. This car has sat for an unknown period of time before I purchased it. I was planning on a complete brake R&R anyway. Thanks, J.B. At 08:11 AM 7/11/2003 -0500, you wrote: >I have had this happen also. It seemed to happen after I had let the >vehicle sit for a couple of weeks without driving it. I never really found >the cause; however, I suspect it may be sticking valves in the master >cylinder. I plan on flushing my brake system soon. > >Thomas E. Potter >Telephone: (713) 215-2877 >Fax: (713) 215-2551 >Mobile: (832) 794-0536 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: J.B. Hebert [mailto:jhebert-at-wrxtra.com] >Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 7:57 AM >To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >Subject: Ack! No brakes! > > >OK, so I was going to get new tires on my '82 300CD. About a 30 minute >drive, all highway. Get to the bottom of the ramp and everything is >fine. Light changes and I accelerate away... come to the next light and >the pedal goes to the floor. I manage to pump it up a bit and get it >stopped. Pull off into a parking lot and check it out. Can't find any >physical evidence of a leak anywhere, and the master cylinder is topped off >with fluid. I limp home (again, 30 minutes highway). I coast up the ramp, >expecting to need significant braking distance, and the brakes are fine >again. On the short jaunt through town back to the house they show no >signs of a problem. Once back in the garage, I stand on the brakes for a >good 30 seconds and they don't sink at all. Just like new. > >So, here's the thing... I've had brakes go out on other cars, and exhibit >the same initial problems... however, in each case, the fluid level was >down significantly in the master cylinder, and they NEVER made a recovery >like this. Inevitably, I had a bad line or the like which was allowing >fluid to escape. I'm worried because I'm afraid the car will do this >again, either in heavy traffic or with someone else driving it... any ideas >on what might cause this intermittent problem? Of course I'm planning a >complete inspection this weekend, as well as a full bleed, but I'm looking >for any pointers you might have. > >Thanks in advance. > >J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:49:27 CDT From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: Re: euro lights The euro lights definitely change the look of a 116, especially in the rear view mirror of those you are overtaking. But I like the quad round look of the US 116, and they would be a perfect candidate for some Hella/Cibie H4 replacements in those nice standardized sizes. So is a 1980 450SEL a 116 or a 126? Alec > My 82 300sd has euro lights. Would not want it any other way. I dont > care for the early version of the american headlamps. I would want a > w116 with euro lamps because the round ones in my estimation are > probably horrible. The H4 lamps in my 20 year old benz are brighter > than the headlights on my 2002 Accord. > > Jeremy Bowne wrote: > > >Put some square euro lights on that beastly w116 and it looks..well.. a few > >years newer ;) those round American lights make the thing look OLD. > > > >My opinion! > > > > > >Jeremy > > > >1980 240D > >1980 450SEL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:12:16 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: 2003 quality/reliability survey http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2003050bfull.gif notice mercedes and jeep side by side... too bad they're on the wrong side of the "industry" standard. Anyone know where these surveys for earlier years could be found? john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) The revolt is underway, you can not stop it. FEAR THE PENGUIN!!!! May the SOURCE be With GNU - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:13:57 -0400 From: Paul Brown Subject: W123 steering stabilizer How do I test a W123 steering stabilizer? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:43:19 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: 2003 quality/reliability survey from what I saw in other surveys that actually brought it UP. john On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Potter, Tom E wrote: >-->I wonder how M-B would fare if the M-class were removed from the analysis. >--> >-->I also wonder how they gathered their data: was it from actual repair reports or from customer surveys. As an ex data analyst, I am dubious of all analyses. >--> >-->Thomas E. Potter >-->Telephone: (713) 215-2877 >-->Fax: (713) 215-2551 >-->Mobile: (832) 794-0536 >--> >--> >-->-----Original Message----- >-->From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >-->Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 11:12 AM >-->Subject: 2003 quality/reliability survey >--> >--> >-->http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2003050bfull.gif >--> >-->notice mercedes and jeep side by side... too bad they're on the >-->wrong side of the "industry" standard. >--> >-->Anyone know where these surveys for earlier years could be found? >--> >-->john >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >--> ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) >-->The revolt is underway, you can not stop it. FEAR THE PENGUIN!!!! >--> May the SOURCE be With GNU >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) The revolt is underway, you can not stop it. FEAR THE PENGUIN!!!! May the SOURCE be With GNU - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:40:12 -0500 From: "Sam Williams" <1sam-at-io.com> Subject: RE: W123 steering stabilizer Paul, Remove it and compress, extend it by hand. If it offers smooth resistance throughout its range of motion, in both directions, it is fine. If resistance varies, especially getting lighter near the center of travel, it's worn. Most people do not bother testing because it is such an inexpensive part and replacing after several years use almost always results in a noticeable improvement in feel. Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Paul Brown Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 11:14 AM Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: W123 steering stabilizer How do I test a W123 steering stabilizer? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:52:14 +0100 From: Renaud OLGIATI Subject: W123 engine out My 300d has chucked its front pulley, and the engine has to come out to reclaim the cones at the front on the crankshaft. While the engine is out, is there any job I should have done at the same time, to save pulling the engine again in the near future ? The engine and car have 170.000 km, uses up two liters of oil every 1000 km, and the (automatic) gearshifts are a bit rough. TIA, Ron. - -- Linux vs. Windows is a no-WIN situation. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:06:44 -0700 From: "Paul Schwartz" Subject: Re: W123 engine out That is some very serious oil consumption. If it's rings, I'd consider replacing them at a minimum; better, new pistons, rings and cylinders. If the crank is removed, new bearing are always a good idea. If you remove the pistons and crank, have the rods rebuilt. Paul > My 300d has chucked its front pulley, and the engine has to come out to > reclaim the cones at the front on the crankshaft. > > While the engine is out, is there any job I should have done at the same time, > to save pulling the engine again in the near future ? > > The engine and car have 170.000 km, uses up two liters of oil every 1000 km, > and the (automatic) gearshifts are a bit rough. > > TIA, > > Ron. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:14:21 -0500 From: "Sam Williams" <1sam-at-io.com> Subject: RE: W123 engine out Ron, Sorry you were presented this opportunity to work in an uncrowded engine compartment. I would certainly replace motor mounts, also check to see if it would be easier to replace other rubber pieces like sub-frame mounts now. If you have an automatic transmission, maybe replace front pump seal--if manual, check clutch, throw-out bearing and slave cylinder. I would also take this opportunity to clean grunge from engine compartment, perhaps buy spray touch-up and repaint areas that need it. I would write down engine and transmission numbers while you can read them easily. Replacing oil cooler and power steering hoses would be easier with engine out but they may never require replacement if left alone. It would be slightly easier to adjust the valves with engine out. If you ever plan to clean and calibrate injectors, check glow plugs or ream pre-chambers it might be easier now. Hope you avoid other rude surprises of this magnitude in the future. Sam "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." --Robert Wilensky - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Renaud OLGIATI Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 5:52 AM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: W123 engine out My 300d has chucked its front pulley, and the engine has to come out to reclaim the cones at the front on the crankshaft. While the engine is out, is there any job I should have done at the same time, to save pulling the engine again in the near future ? The engine and car have 170.000 km, uses up two liters of oil every 1000 km, and the (automatic) gearshifts are a bit rough. TIA, Ron. - -- Linux vs. Windows is a no-WIN situation. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:06:12 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: Ack! No brakes! On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 08:57:20AM -0400, J.B. Hebert wrote: > OK, so I was going to get new tires on my '82 300CD. About a 30 minute > drive, all highway. Get to the bottom of the ramp and everything is > fine. Light changes and I accelerate away... come to the next light and > the pedal goes to the floor. I manage to pump it up a bit and get it > stopped. Pull off into a parking lot and check it out. Can't find any > physical evidence of a leak anywhere, and the master cylinder is topped off > with fluid. I limp home (again, 30 minutes highway). I coast up the ramp, > expecting to need significant braking distance, and the brakes are fine > again. On the short jaunt through town back to the house they show no > signs of a problem. Once back in the garage, I stand on the brakes for a > good 30 seconds and they don't sink at all. Just like new. > > So, here's the thing... I've had brakes go out on other cars, and exhibit > the same initial problems... however, in each case, the fluid level was > down significantly in the master cylinder, and they NEVER made a recovery > like this. Inevitably, I had a bad line or the like which was allowing > fluid to escape. I'm worried because I'm afraid the car will do this > again, either in heavy traffic or with someone else driving it... any ideas > on what might cause this intermittent problem? Of course I'm planning a > complete inspection this weekend, as well as a full bleed, but I'm looking > for any pointers you might have. This happened to me a couple of times on american cars - fluid flush solved the problem, either by getting rid of moisture and air in the system, or exposing a leak I didn't notice at the master cylinder :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1103 **********************************