From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #1110 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Saturday, July 19 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1110 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: A Diesel M-B RV! (fwd) timing chain Re: W123 shocks? Re: W123 shocks? Re: sagging in the ass RE: Re[2]: W123 shocks? RE: Shocks and "ticking" RE: Shocks and "ticking" Re: W123 shocks? RE: timing chain Re: Re[2]: W123 shocks? Re: timing chain Re: buttercup engine pics Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:06:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Jack Etsweiler Subject: A Diesel M-B RV! (fwd) I think this may have fallen through the cracks . . .. - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:48:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Jack Etsweiler To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: A Diesel M-B RV! Who knew? http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2423519999 Mercedes-Benz 309D Wohnmobil. 1982-ish. 190K Km Alas, it's in Deutschland (Thuringen), but whatever. It's cool. "With Space for a Motorcycle." Seems the owner was a motocrosser. Jack in Ann Arbor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:16:06 -0700 From: Jack Tavares Subject: timing chain I have an 83 300D with approx 220k miles on it. I have a bunch of paper work from the previous owners but no record of the timing chain ever being changed. I inquired at our local benz place (Friedel's in Renton WA. not a dealer) about having it replaced. I was quoted something like $400 for the chain and tensioner. My questions are: Do I really need to worry about replacing this at this time? Is this a do it yourself job? Thanks - -- jack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:23:19 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: W123 shocks? I don't know about the KYB's. I do know about the Bilsteins! When I bought my '84, there was a knocking sound upon pushing vigorously up and down on the right front fender. I diagnosed a bad shock and replaced the front with HD Bilsteins. I like a stiffer more sure-footed ride. It was wonderful. I also had a set of Bilsteins on an old Saab 900 EMS that helped the beast handle incredibly well. In my opinion it would be foolish to go with any other option. I recall paying about $40 each for the shocks. You can't get anything good for much less than that. I drive both the '84 Turbodiesel 300D and a Crown Vic Police Interceptor daily. The Benz has about 185k mi, the CVPI about 45k mi. The CVPI wallows like a pig compared to the Benz. The CVPI has lots of power, and handles better than most big American cars, but there is no comparison to the stable handling of the Benz. I would not consider the handling of the CVPI as a testimonial for KYB. I think Boge makes some good stuff. A few years ago I replaced a Volvo 245 front struts with Boge (because the money for the Bilsteins was an issue), and was happy with the result. If you just don't want to spend the money on Bilsteins, Boge might be a reasonable alternative, but I wouldn't consider anything else. Greg At 11:35 AM 7/18/03 , Kevin Pekarek wrote: >On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 11:02:07AM -0700, Jerome Kaidor wrote: > > **** Whatever you get, do NOT get KYB shocks for your W123! Let me repeat > > that: "DO NOT GET KYB SHOCKS". Or I could emphasize: > > > > DO NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT GET KYB SHOCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > I don't know about any of the other brands. I installed new KYBs in my > > 300D. They suck. They do not control the car adequately. It has excess > > body roll in tight turns, excess "leaping" on bumpy or undulating > roads, and > > poor control in crosswinds. > >Odd. The factory shock for a P71 crown victoria - the pursuit package - uses >a kyb gas-a-just on each corner. The gas-a-just is a white shock. Avoid the >grey ones, they can barely keep up with monroes. > >I've had a lot of success with the white kybs, and well, the patrol car has no >problems with ill handling due to the shocks. True, a crown vic (especially in >police trim ) tips the scales over 4500 lbs so it's a touch heavier than a >w123. No, Alec, I haven't gotten the patrol car airborne yet :) > >That aside, if I was going to replace the shocks/struts on the 190D, I'd >probably look at bilsteins first, but consider whatever the OEM shock was if >the bilsteins were a pain to get. > >K > >-- >Kevin Pekarek >Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and >Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) >85 190D (2.2, 5spd) >94 P71 Crown Victoria (4.6 SEFI, AODE, Syntor X9000, DR590, Pro2067, etc) Greg Fiorentino Vancouver USA gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net '84 300D Turbo '79 300TD '85 F-350 6.9 crew cab ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:26:59 -0700 (PDT) From: hue wong Subject: Re: W123 shocks? This list rocks! I learn so much through out the day! - --- Greg Fiorentino wrote: > I don't know about the KYB's. I do know about the > Bilsteins! When I > bought my '84, there was a knocking sound upon > pushing vigorously up and > down on the right front fender. I diagnosed a bad > shock and replaced the > front with HD Bilsteins. I like a stiffer more > sure-footed ride. It was > wonderful. I also had a set of Bilsteins on an old > Saab 900 EMS that > helped the beast handle incredibly well. In my > opinion it would be foolish > to go with any other option. I recall paying about > $40 each for the > shocks. You can't get anything good for much less > than that. > > I drive both the '84 Turbodiesel 300D and a Crown > Vic Police Interceptor > daily. The Benz has about 185k mi, the CVPI about > 45k mi. The CVPI wallows > like a pig compared to the Benz. The CVPI has lots > of power, and handles > better than most big American cars, but there is no > comparison to the > stable handling of the Benz. I would not consider > the handling of the CVPI > as a testimonial for KYB. > > I think Boge makes some good stuff. A few years ago > I replaced a Volvo 245 > front struts with Boge (because the money for the > Bilsteins was an issue), > and was happy with the result. If you just don't > want to spend the money > on Bilsteins, Boge might be a reasonable > alternative, but I wouldn't > consider anything else. > > Greg > > At 11:35 AM 7/18/03 , Kevin Pekarek wrote: > >On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 11:02:07AM -0700, Jerome > Kaidor wrote: > > > **** Whatever you get, do NOT get KYB shocks for > your W123! Let me repeat > > > that: "DO NOT GET KYB SHOCKS". Or I could > emphasize: > > > > > > DO NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT GET KYB > SHOCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > > > I don't know about any of the other brands. I > installed new KYBs in my > > > 300D. They suck. They do not control the car > adequately. It has excess > > > body roll in tight turns, excess "leaping" on > bumpy or undulating > > roads, and > > > poor control in crosswinds. > > > >Odd. The factory shock for a P71 crown victoria - > the pursuit package - uses > >a kyb gas-a-just on each corner. The gas-a-just is > a white shock. Avoid the > >grey ones, they can barely keep up with monroes. > > > >I've had a lot of success with the white kybs, and > well, the patrol car has no > >problems with ill handling due to the shocks. True, > a crown vic (especially in > >police trim ) tips the scales over 4500 lbs so > it's a touch heavier than a > >w123. No, Alec, I haven't gotten the patrol car > airborne yet :) > > > >That aside, if I was going to replace the > shocks/struts on the 190D, I'd > >probably look at bilsteins first, but consider > whatever the OEM shock was if > >the bilsteins were a pain to get. > > > >K > > > >-- > >Kevin Pekarek > >Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and > >Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) > >85 190D (2.2, 5spd) > >94 P71 Crown Victoria (4.6 SEFI, AODE, Syntor > X9000, DR590, Pro2067, etc) > > Greg Fiorentino > Vancouver USA > gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net > > '84 300D Turbo > '79 300TD > '85 F-350 6.9 crew cab __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:40:29 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: sagging in the ass Oh wait, Did I mention that this 1996 model year vehicle (the Maxima) kept failing its emissions test. We traded the damn thing in at a car dealer who had EVERYTHING in the emissions system replaced and it still kept failing. Needless to say its someone elses problem even for the car dealer as he brought it to the auction and waved goodbye to it as well. :) The happy thing is the dealer got rid of my brothers car (which was not really selling because it was an odd colored diesel) and my brother got a good running car and got rid of a troublesome one. Robert. acordova-at-texas.net wrote: >Did the Maxima axles show any signs of living 15 to 20 years? Oh yeah. That car >is nowhere near that old. > >In my 8 years with an 85 300D turbo, I came to believe that the car enjoyed >being driven hard. If one regularly extracts most of the 120 or so horsepower >of that motor, one finds that it is well balanced to the mass of the car. > >I had to replace one back half-shaft at around 175,000 miles. I would say it >held up pretty well. > >Alec > > > >>My brother's 300D needs a new axle on the drivers side. When he first >>got the car he was used to a 190hp V6 Maxima and was litterally standing >>on the gas whenever he drove it. He stopped doing that when his axles >>started clicking and when he saw the prices for new ones :). >> >>Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:43:21 -0500 From: "Sam Williams" <1sam-at-io.com> Subject: RE: Re[2]: W123 shocks? Richard, Both Boge and Bilstein were OEM on 123s and some other MBs. I like Bilsteins; don't think I ever had Boges. Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Richard Welty Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 3:45 PM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re[2]: W123 shocks? hmmm. i was under the impression that the Boge for the 123 was one of the OE type shocks. we put boges in the back of our 1977 300d and they worked quite well, but admittedly we never did any stunt driving with it. richard - -- Richard Welty rwelty-at-suespammers.org Averill Park Networking rwelty-at-averillpark.net Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com 518-573-7592 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:43:24 -0500 From: "Sam Williams" <1sam-at-io.com> Subject: RE: Shocks and "ticking" Kevin, It was an option except in US. Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Kevin Pekarek Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:26 PM To: Jim Steere Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: Shocks and "ticking" On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 03:23:35PM -0400, Jim Steere wrote: > I've got two sedans here that have the hydraulic levelling system. They're > not real common, but the system wasn't limited to just the W123 wagon. Was this an option restricted to later years of the 123 sedan? K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:58:49 -0700 (PDT) From: hue wong Subject: RE: Shocks and "ticking" MMMM I think my '71 280sel has this option (self leveling suspension) what does this mean for shock replacment? Anything I should know before going into the big shock replacment! (this car continues to give me repair "suprizes") - --- Sam Williams <1sam-at-io.com> wrote: > Kevin, > > It was an option except in US. > > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of > Kevin Pekarek > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:26 PM > To: Jim Steere > Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: Shocks and "ticking" > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 03:23:35PM -0400, Jim Steere > wrote: > > I've got two sedans here that have the hydraulic > levelling system. > They're > > not real common, but the system wasn't limited to > just the W123 wagon. > > Was this an option restricted to later years of the > 123 sedan? > > K > > -- > Kevin Pekarek > Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and > Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:32:51 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: W123 shocks? On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 03:23:19PM -0700, Greg Fiorentino wrote: > I drive both the '84 Turbodiesel 300D and a Crown Vic Police Interceptor > daily. The Benz has about 185k mi, the CVPI about 45k mi. The CVPI wallows > like a pig compared to the Benz. The CVPI has lots of power, and handles > better than most big American cars, but there is no comparison to the > stable handling of the Benz. I would not consider the handling of the CVPI > as a testimonial for KYB. oooh, another patrol car fan :) My 94, even with the tired suspension (it has 190k on the clock now) is far more stable on the road than my little w201. I attribute this to the wheelbase and the weight differences. Yes, the w201 is far more nimble than the 20' long crown vic, but wind gusts on a bridge are far more noticeable on the w201, as are passing cars. Sure, the w201 has better steering feel and better brake feel. And that wallow you are talking about is a deficiency of the four-link rear suspension in the crown vic - they fixed this in 1998 :) I've also seen KYB gas-a-justs used on other large american iron. Perhaps it just doesn't work right on a benz. *shrug* K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:45:10 -0500 From: "Sam Williams" <1sam-at-io.com> Subject: RE: timing chain Jack, It's a DIY job (depending on your skill level). If you adjust your own valves, you can probably replace the timing chain and tensioner. I recommend you have the manuals. Call 1-800-FOR-MERC for the CDs. First, check to see if the chain has stretched (worn). I do that whenever I adjust the valves. Turn engine slowly until the marks on cam tower/cam sprocket line up. Read the scale on harmonic balancer. If you are much more than 5 degrees ATDC, replace the chain. If much more than 10 degrees, do it immediately. You probably need to cut off the old chain. New chains come with either a clipped master link or you must knurl the master link; there are tools you can rent to do that--check where you buy the chain and tensioner. You attach old chain to new and while keeping everything tight, so it doesn't slip, turn engine to feed in new chain. Be careful and go slowly because if chain slips, pistons can touch the valves--exactly the situation you plan to avoid by replacing the chain. The tensioner is the tricky part. Yours is probably a spring-loaded, one way device. Have someone show you how it works and follow the manual as you do it. Happy wrenching! Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Jack Tavares Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:16 PM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: timing chain I have an 83 300D with approx 220k miles on it. I have a bunch of paper work from the previous owners but no record of the timing chain ever being changed. I inquired at our local benz place (Friedel's in Renton WA. not a dealer) about having it replaced. I was quoted something like $400 for the chain and tensioner. My questions are: Do I really need to worry about replacing this at this time? Is this a do it yourself job? Thanks - -- jack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:34:34 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: Re[2]: W123 shocks? On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 02:04:03PM -0700, Jerome Kaidor wrote: > *** There's a local highway ( 92 ) that crosses another local highway ( > interstate 101 ) on a high, long, and bumpy bridge. The bumps in the bridge > are just the right size and length to resonate with the KYB-modified > suspension of my 300D at freeway speed. The car rocks up & down, higher and > higher... and then my wife says "Yeee HAA!", and starts laughing and > humming "La cucaracha". I maintain a stiff-upper-lipped silence. :) HAHAHAHAHAHAAH that overpass on 92 hasn't been the same since the earthquake. :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 19:47:55 -0400 From: "Steve Morelen" Subject: Re: timing chain It is OK for a DIY type person only if you are comfortable with getting into the guts of the engine and have access to a proper tool that can crimp the closing link for the new chain. You have to be careful not to disturb the alignment of the cam sprocket relative to the crankshaft sprocket (and the injection pump sprocket) so the engine timing is not misadjusted. I replaced mine at about 200 kmiles as a preventative measure...I believe that it was pretty well stretched out, based on the position of the chain tensioner as I found it on initial disassembly. Steve Morelen '84 300D >From: Jack Tavares >To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >Subject: timing chain >Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:16:06 -0700 > >I have an 83 300D with approx 220k miles on it. > >I have a bunch of paper work from the previous owners >but no record of the timing chain ever being changed. > >I inquired at our local benz place (Friedel's in Renton WA. >not a dealer) about having it replaced. >I was quoted something like $400 for the chain and tensioner. > >My questions are: > >Do I really need to worry about replacing this at this time? > >Is this a do it yourself job? > >Thanks >-- >jack _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:24:33 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: buttercup engine pics cam does look ok... the injectors could be the problem... but explain again what the sounds were, how they occurred and what it felt like. does the car start and run now? you might want to adjust the valves while you have the valve cover off. I'm putting the pix in http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/80-300CD/coreys-engine will pop a shell and move the large files over as well... john At 03:56 PM 7/18/2003 -0800, corey church wrote: >Here are the pictures, I can't see anything wrong with the cam, no >discoloration or flat spots. Plenty of oil, but I don't know how to see >if there is a problem with the valves. I would also like to check on the >injectors, but I don't know how to check those either. Do you have any >suggestions? These pictures are large so I will send them individually >Corey >Thanks for the help >-- > corey church > coreychurch-at-fastmail.fm > >-- >http://www.fastmail.fm - Consolidate POP email and Hotmail in one place - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1110 **********************************