From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #1126 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Tuesday, July 29 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1126 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: Volvo diesel opinions Re: Volvo diesel opinions Re: Back to work on the 240D... Arg... no first gear. Re: Volvo diesel opinions Transmissions and such Re: Arg... no first gear. Re: Arg... no first gear. Re: Arg... no first gear. Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:23:19 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: Volvo diesel opinions Your testing suggests that the glow plugs are not the problem. First thing I would research is whether the valves are self-adjusting. Difficult cold starts and overall lack of power could both be due to misadjusted valves. If they're plain mechanical valves like our OM617s, this is nice and cheap. New valve cover gasket, assortment of wrenches, and a little time. Other possibility in my mind based on your description is injector problems and/or air getting into the fuel lines. Leaky injectors could do two things when the engine is off: leak fuel into the intake or cylinder, causing the rich behavior, and cause an overall loss of pressure in the fuel system, making accurate and approprate injection of fuel a challenge on startup. We don't know what problems are common to that motor, but between the bunch of us, we ought to be able to figure this puppy out. ;-) I have heard some decent comments about www.brickboard.com. I recommended it to an S40-driving ex-coworker. I poked around on it myself, and wasn't thoroughly impressed like I am about some MB mailing lists, but it looked active. You might check in there. From what I understand, the 240 Volvos were similar to the 123 Benzes for overall longevity and maintainability. As long as the motor or tranny aren't dead, you could have some fun without having to deal with the hydropneumatic suspension on a 123 wagon. And Volvo seats are tough to beat, even with a Benz. Good luck, Alec ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:41:01 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: Volvo diesel opinions When my '84 turbo did this type of thing it was the glow-plug relay. You can test with a multimeter if you have the manual. The replacement was about $120, but the first one had lasted 18 years, so I felt it had done its duty. Greg At 03:04 PM 7/28/03 , Black, Waylon wrote: >You guys have been so helpful in the past, thought I would run this by >everyone. > >Picked up a 1984 non-turbo diesel Volvo wagon(it was free). > >Here is what was posted by the PO. > >(7/1/03 >When the car is cold, its hard to start. The glow plugs checked out fine at >1 ohm, is there anything else that I need to be on the lookout for? > >Car is a 1984 245 wagon with the non-turbo deisel. Has about 92,000 miles, >still gets 27 miles to the gallon, seems to run fine when warm, cold start >is the only problem. > >7/16/03 >Car is in Texas >Straight body-Brown >Good tires, factory wheels >Not turbo >All power options still work perfect. >Overall, car is real nice, it just won't start > >Will not start. It has a new injector pump. Will turn over and over and over >and over and over... >I parked the car one day, came out later, it wouldn't start. >I don't need the car anymore, I have the title, it's clean, I'll give it to >you. > >****************************** > >I brought the car home Saturday - , PO was honest, it is in great shape. >Fuel level was in the reserve area so I put in 2.5 gallons. Heated the GPs, >tried to start - nope. Squirted a little diesel in - no change. A tiny shot >of ether - it acted as if 1 or 2 cylinders hit but still no start.Removed a >fuel line, squirts when cranking. >Put the battery on charge overnight. Sunday morning I warm the glow plugs 3 >times - no start. I hold the pedal to the floor and crank. After about 10-15 >seconds it starts to sputter and is spinning faster. After about 30 seconds >it finally fires with a huge cloud of dark smoke. Smoke clears after about >1-2 minutes. I check the fluids, take it for a spin - car is pretty slow for >80 hp. I park it until after church. > Later in the day, I restart it(it's still warm),it idles smooth, charge the >A/C, take it for a spin, fill up the tank, put about 30 miles on it after >filling up. I park it. Wife wants to drive it - she cannot get it started. I >try(for about an hour) but no luck. I put it back on the charger. Again, >this morning I crank on it. It finally starts after I hold the pedal to the >floor and crank for about 30 seconds(another cloud of smoke). It acts like a >car that has flooded. Once started the car runs nice but I get lots of black >smoke if I am over 1/2 throttle. Researching black smoke confirms my fears - >low compression or faulty GPs. I am going to pick-up a diesel compression >tester - I need one anyway. >I pull the GPs(the first 4 - the back 2 are blocked by the IP) - ground the >casing, add power. Each glows red within seconds. Reinstall and back on the >battery charger. >Any tips or comments would be appreciated as I feel that I am out of my >element even though I own MB diesels and a VW diesel and have very little >problems keeping them running. ;) > >Thanks, >Waylon > Dallas, Texas Greg Fiorentino Vancouver USA gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net '84 300D Turbo '79 300TD '85 F-350 6.9 crew cab ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:01:12 -0500 From: "Vernon Tuck" Subject: Re: Back to work on the 240D... Jim, If the REST of the floorboard is sound it would be easiest to cut out the bad stuff and weld in a patch. There is a little pneumatic tool available which crimps out the edges of the hole. You cut out the rusted metal then crimp all the way around the hole. This creates a flange like this ---___ here's the hole ____---. Then you cut a patch, lay it into the hole and tack or spot weld it. I wouldn't attempt to do a complete floorboard replacement unless I was doin' a complete body off restoration. Frankly, I don't even know if there's such thing as a MB "body off restoration" since I seem to recall the entire car has a "uniframe" design. You could even epoxy the patch pieces in. Tip Tools has the little doodad for sale for about $60 if I recall. Vernon - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Hoffman" To: Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 4:03 PM Subject: Back to work on the 240D... > Well folks... I've got the 240D raised and I'm trying to figure > out my options for the floor pan. If any of you have the desire, > you could view the following pics and give me your opinions. > Any help will be greatly appreciated! > > TIA > > Jim/ > > Right after I *discovered* the problem... > http://my.execpc.com/~jslash/240D/MBRust2.jpg > http://my.execpc.com/~jslash/240D/MBRust3.jpg > > After the see was removed this weekend... > http://my.execpc.com/~jslash/240D/BenzMissingFloor.JPG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:07:21 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Arg... no first gear. So, I took my 300CD to work today. Finally had it at the point where I felt it was ready to be driven the 150 miles round trip. Everything seemed to be going fine, until I had to come to a complete stop. I tried to go again, and the motor reved, but nothing happened. I let off the gas, and the tranny "caught" second, apparently, and I was able to keep going. However, it was not a pleasant trip. Towards the end, I had to play with the accelerator to get it to catch second, and at this point I'm not sure I could get it moving at all. Luckily it's at home in the garage. Once up to highway speed, in 3rd or 4th, the car is fine. However, I was noticing towards the end of my adventure that second seemed to be slipping more, too. I can't believe that the bands could wear out that quickly. But I'm not sure what else it could be. I changed the fluid and filter a few weeks ago and it seemed to be fine. I was VERY careful to keep everything clean during the change. I've done several auto tranny fluid changes with no problems, so this is a first for me. I checked the level today when I got home and it was a little high, but not much. I siphoned out about 1/3 of a quart and it was right on the max. fill line with the fluid hot. Didn't seem to make any difference. Does anyone have any ideas? I'm so frustrated at this point that I'm ready to start looking for a 4 or 5 speed manual to swap in, but I know that's just more work that I don't have the time to do. I want to DRIVE this car now. I'm tired of working on it. :) Any help is appreciated. Thanks, J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:10:29 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: Volvo diesel opinions Alec, I used to post a lot on Brickboard. They are NOT helpful at all. When my S70 was falling to pieces the other owners on there ignored my problems until their cars started doing the same thing. As well Bricboard is heavily patrolled by Volvo dealers and Volvo Cars of North America who love to post mis information so you end up in their clutches when you have no place else to turn. The 740 and 240 lines of automobile were GREAT cars. Even the gas model vehicles last a long time. They were well constructed but they do still have some common failure items. Parts are difficult to obtain and expensive. Your right about the Volvo Seats. The S70 had THE most comfortble Volvo Seat I have ever sat in. I have driven for 8-10 hours straight only stopping for fuel and have been VERY comfortable in those seats. I do like the Mercedes "suspension" in the seat concept but the Swedes were really good about figuring out exactly where to put foam to make the seat conform to your back. I miss my S70. I wish it had been as realiable as the 740 before it. Robert Chase Alec Cordova wrote: > Your testing suggests that the glow plugs are not the problem. > > First thing I would research is whether the valves are self-adjusting. > Difficult cold starts and overall lack of power could both be due to > misadjusted valves. If they're plain mechanical valves like our OM617s, this > is nice and cheap. New valve cover gasket, assortment of wrenches, and a > little time. > > Other possibility in my mind based on your description is injector problems > and/or air getting into the fuel lines. Leaky injectors could do two things > when the engine is off: leak fuel into the intake or cylinder, causing the > rich behavior, and cause an overall loss of pressure in the fuel system, > making accurate and approprate injection of fuel a challenge on startup. > > We don't know what problems are common to that motor, but between the bunch > of us, we ought to be able to figure this puppy out. ;-) > > I have heard some decent comments about www.brickboard.com. I recommended it > to an S40-driving ex-coworker. I poked around on it myself, and wasn't > thoroughly impressed like I am about some MB mailing lists, but it looked > active. You might check in there. > >>From what I understand, the 240 Volvos were similar to the 123 Benzes for > overall longevity and maintainability. As long as the motor or tranny aren't > dead, you could have some fun without having to deal with the hydropneumatic > suspension on a 123 wagon. And Volvo seats are tough to beat, even with a > Benz. > > Good luck, > Alec ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:26:28 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Transmissions and such Ok not a Diesel Benz problem but wonder still the same. My Accord left me stranded the other day in a parking lot. When I got it home it smells like burnt electronics. Clutch does not engage in any gear. But you can hear some scrubbing noises when you let out and rattling and gear noises and grinding sometimes. Any idea? The Honda people have still not looked at the car. Reason I am asking Is I have a very serious buyer who is looking for my exact car. Im hoping the dealership just replaces the whole transmission under warranty so it does not scare the fish :) Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:29:04 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Re: Arg... no first gear. >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:28:24 -0400 >To: Robert Chase >From: "J.B. Hebert" >Subject: Re: Arg... no first gear. > >*grin* Most of my vacuum stuff doesn't work. At least the locks and the >seat backs. The engine shuts off, but slowly. How many vacuum >connections does the tranny have? > >The fluid is clean and not burnt. > >Hopefully it's a vacuum leak... > >Thanks, > >J.B. > >At 10:15 PM 7/28/2003 -0400, you wrote: >>The slipping in first is a definate concern. But have you checked your >>vacuum stuff? My 300SD slipped from 1st to 2nd until I had a vacuum line >>replaced that was causing my shutoff solenoid not to function. Do you >>have any Vaccum stuff not working? >> >>Check your fluid now though. If it smells burnt you might need your >>bands adjusted. Dont drive the car until you do because you might wear >>things out more than you need to if your "really" slipping. >> >>Hopefully its just a pesky vacuum leak. >> >>Robert Chase >> >> >>J.B. Hebert wrote: >> >>>So, I took my 300CD to work today. Finally had it at the point where I >>>felt it was ready to be driven the 150 miles round trip. Everything >>>seemed to be going fine, until I had to come to a complete stop. I >>>tried to go again, and the motor reved, but nothing happened. I let off >>>the gas, and the tranny "caught" second, apparently, and I was able to >>>keep going. However, it was not a pleasant trip. Towards the end, I >>>had to play with the accelerator to get it to catch second, and at this >>>point I'm not sure I could get it moving at all. Luckily it's at home >>>in the garage. >>>Once up to highway speed, in 3rd or 4th, the car is fine. However, I >>>was noticing towards the end of my adventure that second seemed to be >>>slipping more, too. I can't believe that the bands could wear out that >>>quickly. But I'm not sure what else it could be. I changed the fluid >>>and filter a few weeks ago and it seemed to be fine. I was VERY careful >>>to keep everything clean during the change. I've done several auto >>>tranny fluid changes with no problems, so this is a first for me. I >>>checked the level today when I got home and it was a little high, but >>>not much. I siphoned out about 1/3 of a quart and it was right on the >>>max. fill line with the fluid hot. Didn't seem to make any difference. >>>Does anyone have any ideas? I'm so frustrated at this point that I'm >>>ready to start looking for a 4 or 5 speed manual to swap in, but I know >>>that's just more work that I don't have the time to do. I want to DRIVE >>>this car now. I'm tired of working on it. :) >>>Any help is appreciated. >>>Thanks, >>>J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:42:43 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Re: Arg... no first gear. I was fearing this, as well. I'm hoping it's something more simple, though. Already got the switch and put it in... thanks, again. I definitely want to get this car driveable. Just frustrated at this point. What are you looking to get for the tranny setup? Contact me off list if you'd like. I assume it's a 4 speed? I went from a telecommuting job to a crappy commute... it totally sucks. J.B. At 10:23 PM 7/28/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Bummer.....I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but from my >experience....those are the (very well-described) symptoms of a Benz >transmission "going south". I suppose there could be some hunk of crud >blocking a passage in the valve body.....but usually if you disturb >something doing a filter change, it shows up immediately. > >If you get discouraged and say "the hell with it"....you may certainly >return that switch that's on it's way for a refund, or....if yer' feelin' >real frisky, I've got a complete "stick" setup. But....first....I'd pull >the pan (again) and check it out, and make sure it isn't something stupid. > >150 miles round trip to work? You've got my wife beat by 40 miles. Me....I >have an arduous 75 foot trek across my lawn.....with a cup of coffee....to >my shop. It also should be noted, however, that my hours suck. I'm just >finishing up now. > >Jim > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "J.B. Hebert" >To: >Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 10:07 PM >Subject: Arg... no first gear. > > > > So, I took my 300CD to work today. Finally had it at the point where I > > felt it was ready to be driven the 150 miles round trip. Everything >seemed > > to be going fine, until I had to come to a complete stop. I tried to go > > again, and the motor reved, but nothing happened. I let off the gas, and > > the tranny "caught" second, apparently, and I was able to keep > > going. However, it was not a pleasant trip. Towards the end, I had to > > play with the accelerator to get it to catch second, and at this point I'm > > not sure I could get it moving at all. Luckily it's at home in the >garage. > > > > Once up to highway speed, in 3rd or 4th, the car is fine. However, I was > > noticing towards the end of my adventure that second seemed to be slipping > > more, too. I can't believe that the bands could wear out that > > quickly. But I'm not sure what else it could be. I changed the fluid and > > filter a few weeks ago and it seemed to be fine. I was VERY careful to > > keep everything clean during the change. I've done several auto tranny > > fluid changes with no problems, so this is a first for me. I checked the > > level today when I got home and it was a little high, but not much. I > > siphoned out about 1/3 of a quart and it was right on the max. fill line > > with the fluid hot. Didn't seem to make any difference. > > > > Does anyone have any ideas? I'm so frustrated at this point that I'm >ready > > to start looking for a 4 or 5 speed manual to swap in, but I know that's > > just more work that I don't have the time to do. I want to DRIVE this car > > now. I'm tired of working on it. :) > > > > Any help is appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:49:54 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Re: Arg... no first gear. I'll certainly check that out. There might be hope after all. J.B. At 10:40 PM 7/28/2003 -0400, you wrote: >AH HA! > >Actually a lot of the MB's use Vacuum to determine the speed of the >shift. There are a few things on the web about this. The first thing >would be to fix all your vacuum leaks. Once thats done your problems >might go away. > >On the OM617 near the shutoff solenoid there is a vacuum modulator for the >transmission. Its plastic and usually has a green cylender coming out of >the vacuum hose. > >Hope this helps > >Robert. > > > >J.B. Hebert wrote: > >>*grin* Most of my vacuum stuff doesn't work. At least the locks and the >>seat backs. The engine shuts off, but slowly. How many vacuum >>connections does the tranny have? >>The fluid is clean and not burnt. >>Hopefully it's a vacuum leak... >>Thanks, >>J.B. >>At 10:15 PM 7/28/2003 -0400, you wrote: >> >>>The slipping in first is a definate concern. But have you checked your >>>vacuum stuff? My 300SD slipped from 1st to 2nd until I had a vacuum >>>line replaced that was causing my shutoff solenoid not to function. Do >>>you have any Vaccum stuff not working? >>> >>>Check your fluid now though. If it smells burnt you might need your >>>bands adjusted. Dont drive the car until you do because you might wear >>>things out more than you need to if your "really" slipping. >>> >>>Hopefully its just a pesky vacuum leak. >>> >>>Robert Chase >>> >>> >>>J.B. Hebert wrote: >>> >>>>So, I took my 300CD to work today. Finally had it at the point where I >>>>felt it was ready to be driven the 150 miles round trip. >>>>Everything seemed to be going fine, until I had to come to a complete >>>>stop. I tried to go again, and the motor reved, but nothing >>>>happened. I let off the gas, and the tranny "caught" second, >>>>apparently, and I was able to keep going. However, it was not a >>>>pleasant trip. Towards the end, I had to play with the accelerator to >>>>get it to catch second, and at this point I'm not sure I could get it >>>>moving at all. Luckily it's at home in the garage. >>>>Once up to highway speed, in 3rd or 4th, the car is fine. However, I >>>>was noticing towards the end of my adventure that second seemed to be >>>>slipping more, too. I can't believe that the bands could wear out that >>>>quickly. But I'm not sure what else it could be. I changed the fluid >>>>and filter a few weeks ago and it seemed to be fine. I was VERY >>>>careful to keep everything clean during the change. I've done several >>>>auto tranny fluid changes with no problems, so this is a first for >>>>me. I checked the level today when I got home and it was a little >>>>high, but not much. I siphoned out about 1/3 of a quart and it was >>>>right on the max. fill line with the fluid hot. Didn't seem to make >>>>any difference. >>>>Does anyone have any ideas? I'm so frustrated at this point that I'm >>>>ready to start looking for a 4 or 5 speed manual to swap in, but I know >>>>that's just more work that I don't have the time to do. I want to >>>>DRIVE this car now. I'm tired of working on it. :) >>>>Any help is appreciated. >>>>Thanks, >>>>J.B. ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1126 **********************************