From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #1146 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Thursday, August 7 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1146 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: rear fog lamp and drilled/slotted rotors Re: rear fog lamp and drilled/slotted rotors C-Spot Drive party (was Re: Rube) Re: Diesel Anti Theft? "pump diesel, go boom" ;) Re: '91 300D blower motor Idling a Diesel should not be a problem Re: Diesel Anti Theft? Re: "pump diesel, go boom" ;) Re: Idling a Diesel should not be a problem Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:48:53 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: rear fog lamp and drilled/slotted rotors good info... cross drilling is fine for dirt bikes, mainly like the slotting and plating... the rotors I orderd for my WJ from perf.prod. were great, that cracked rotor is rather scary... a good reason to avoid a drilled rotor. :) john On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Mike Frank wrote: >-->John: >--> >--> Drilled slotted rotors are not a good idea, for a lot of good >-->engineering reasons: >--> >--> - Modern brake pads are less prone to outgassing than the old >-->products, there's no need to channel the rotor. If you need to do this, >-->it's just as effective to slot the pad. >--> - Drilling or slotting a rotor ALWAYS weakens it, even if the >-->holes are chamfered or radiussed. I posted some photos on the Jaguar site, >-->just hit the thumbnails to enlarge: >-->http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1058712495 >-->http://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1058744595 >--> - Drilling a rotor reduces thermal mass. While you may think that >-->lighter is better, it's not the case for brake disks. Racers sometimes >-->drill rotors to allow the pads to reach operating temperature more quickly! >-->The only right way to reduce rotor weight is to go to a floating rotor with >-->an aluminum "hat". >--> - Drilling and slotting reduce rotor surface area. This isn't a >-->good thing. >--> - Drilled and slotted rotors can't be resurfaced safely. >--> >-->But the plating is very attractive. >--> >-->Mike Frank >--> >--> >--> >-->At 07:25 AM 8/7/2003 -0700, john wrote: >-->>At this point there isn't anything on this car I don't like. And >-->>the only thing it will need are new brake rotors, thinking of the >-->>cross drilled slotted rotors from performance products: >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) The revolt is underway, you can not stop it. FEAR THE PENGUIN!!!! May the SOURCE be With GNU - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:43:37 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: rear fog lamp and drilled/slotted rotors not excited about the cross drill, but I do like slotted... helps when wet. :) will have to check with rusty on rotors, mine are chewed up in the rear, pulsing... I think the PO installed new front ones, but he has dustcovers on them, so they could be warped from heat maybe??? john On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 acordova-at-texas.net wrote: >-->> At this point there isn't anything on this car I don't like. And >-->> the only thing it will need are new brake rotors, thinking of the >-->> cross drilled slotted rotors from performance products: >-->> http://www.performanceproducts.com/ProductPage.aspx? >-->ProductName=Drilled+and+Slotted+Rotors&productid=102095&producttype=20 >--> >-->> >-->> I bought a set of slotted rotors for my '99 WJ (grand cherokee) and >-->> they worked great, put over 30k on them with no problems, which was >-->> the same mileage the jeep had when I bought it, so I know the original >-->> rotors didn't go that far. ;) >-->> >-->> john >-->> >--> >-->I'm not sure I see the benefit of slotted/cross-drilled rotors on the rear on a >-->daily driver. If they are also internally vented, you would need new calipers >-->to fit over them. OEM rear rotors from Rusty for a 91 300D 2.5 turbo are under >-->25 bucks a piece. He also shows some "Zimmerman Cross Drilled" in that >-->application for $50.34 each if you insist on spending more. >--> >-->Performance Products has good stuff and great, useful catalogs, but their >-->pricing is not outstanding. >--> >-->Alec >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) The revolt is underway, you can not stop it. FEAR THE PENGUIN!!!! May the SOURCE be With GNU - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:45:16 -0500 From: Jan Guthrie Subject: C-Spot Drive party (was Re: Rube) Dan, Are you (or anyone else from the list ) going to the Mercedes C-spot drive party this weekend. It is out in Lake Villa. I am signed up for tomorrow from 1-3. It really looks like fun. http://www.c-spotdriveparty.com Jan DanG wrote: > Thanks Jon - the mpg runs fine here, but I still have the swf and will also try to get that > working. Uninstall all macromedia, reboot and will do it again, then try install. > Thanks > Dan ChicagoArea > > > http://www.honda.co.uk/multimedia/index.html > > > > Download "The Cog". It's a "zip" file. Unzip it and run it. > > > > If that doesn't work, I'll send you the .SWF file. > > > > Jon - -- $:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x$:0^0:$x,88,x$: Jan Jan Guthrie Yacht Brokerage jan-at-buy-a-boat.com 262-553-1998 http://www.buy-a-boat.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:03:26 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: Diesel Anti Theft? On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 08:48:51AM -0600, scott_haaland-at-agilent.com wrote: > Is it just a viscious rumor that our beloved Diesel benzes don't > like to idle for long periods??? What's up with that...first I've > heard of it. It's actually a common diesel thing. IIRC, diesels don't burn off all the fuel injected at idle. This causes fuel to stack up in the cylinder unburnt. This has three side effects, one is that the engine will warm up a touch because the mixture is too rich, another is that the fuel will cause deposits to form. The third is that a shutdown after a long idle will cause a hard start. Diesels used in public safety (fire trucks, ambulances) use something to idle the engine up to 1000 or 1100 rpm. Trucks used by oil fields in alaska have also have something to do this (and the new fangled diesels might do this automatically). I really don't remember where I read that. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (2.2, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:57:01 GMT From: mjmason-at-juno.com Subject: "pump diesel, go boom" ;) Waylon wrote: "I try to never shut my car off until I reach my destination - seems like most car problems occur where the car was shut off and did not restart." I used to frequent the same fuel stop in my college town, for about 3 straught years (most of the cashiers knew the car, because the self-service island was right in front of their window and there weren't many 123s in the Iowa City area... I don't imagine that's changed much). Anyway, they had a "new hire" during my last year there, who hadn't been clued in that many folks DO leave their diesels running... I'd been having trouble with an odd spray pattern on an injector nozzle but hadn't isolated which one it was, so I had a very slight fuel leak (from fiddling with the lines) and was carrying a reserve can just in case) -- needless to say I stunk like diesel, and felt lucky to have the thing running (not keen on shutting it off). She came shrieking out the door at me at about 1:00 am, telling me I was going to blow the whole place to bits and needed to shut off my engine. I started to try to explain the relatively lower risk of fuel ignition/explosion of diesel when it's not under pressure (vs. gasoline), but she wasn't hearing any of it. Finally I just pointed over to the truck area (all Peterbilts, Kenworths, Internationals, etc. and all still running -- one guy filling up at that moment) and asked, "What's he doing, then?" Her response? "That's a truck. They don't run as hot as cars." Can't win for losing, I guess. Luckily, she restarted on the 2nd or 3rd try. (Man, I wish I'd hung onto that car.) Matt in IL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:48:04 CDT From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: Re: '91 300D blower motor It was very well covered in the W124 factory CD set, except for the first step of removing some of the trim. That apparently was on the CD set for a different chassis, and i got somebody to email me a copy. I did not take pictures, I did take poor notes, I lost time during reassembly because I wasn't sure which screws went where. Learned that my next project must include better documentation. Alec > pictures? write up? > I'll put it up on my server... put some > pix from the perf catalog at: > http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/ > > john > > > On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 acordova-at-texas.net wrote: > > >-->> if it's anything like the 123 or 126 you could do it in > >-->> your tuxedo... > >-->> > >-->> I have a '91 300d and from what I can tell it's under the pass > >-->> side too... I hope... I have the service manual for the > >-->> 124 but haven't had time to sort out the relevant Diesel stuff... > >-->> > >-->> I did it for the 201 chassis. I'd look at the pdf's and > >-->> then rename them according to the sections. > >-->> > >-->> Why is it that German documentation and wiring is so pathetic? :) > >-->> > >-->> Ich liebe Deutschland, aber nicht das buch. > >-->> > >-->> john > >-->> > >--> > >-->Sorry, folks. I have repaired the blower motor on a W123 (85 300D) and replaced > >-->one on a W124 (89 300CE). I can only advise in the strongest terms to not wear > >-->your tux when attempting the procedure on a W124. > >--> > >-->The blower motor on a W124 is accessed from outside, in front of the > >-->windshield. You have to remove the big single wiper and LOTS of trim. You will > >-->encounter plastic parts that have become quite brittle with heat and age. I > >-->think the book rate to R&R the blower motor is around 4 hours. It is certainly > >-->not the 15 minute job (including time to drink a frosty beverage) of a W123. > >--> > >-->This is why many people, myself included, simply face the music and buy a brand > >-->new blower motor when diging into a W124. You may not want to go back in there > >-->in a year or two when the replace-the-brushes-and-ATF-the-bearings trick dies. > >--> > >-->On the plus side, I used the savings of 4 hours of MB-competent mechanic to > >-->justify buying a half decent set of tools to do the job myself. At somewhere > >-->between 65 and 100 bucks an hour, i was able to spend over a hundred on tools > >-->and still "save" 200 or so, which "paid" for the new blower motor. So I think > >-->the whole procedure turned out to be free, plus I got a new set of tools. > >--> > >-->Alec Cordova > >-->Taylor, Texas > >-->89 300CE, > >-->160K > >--> > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. > ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) > The revolt is underway, you can not stop it. FEAR THE PENGUIN!!!! > May the SOURCE be With GNU > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:20:49 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Idling a Diesel should not be a problem On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >-->> Is it just a viscious rumor that our beloved Diesel benzes don't >-->> like to idle for long periods??? What's up with that...first I've >-->> heard of it. >--> >-->It's actually a common diesel thing. IIRC, diesels don't burn off all the >-->fuel injected at idle. This causes fuel to stack up in the cylinder unburnt. Actually Diesels should not have a problem with prolonged idling if the injectors are working properly. A Diesel will sip fuel at an idle. Many Diesel owners leave their rigs running all night in cold snaps or in cold climates, like up in Alaska. A Diesel is very efficient and the fuel is burned in the center of the cylinder, using the energy to move the piston and then transfer the heat byproducts out the exhaust. A gasoline engine on the other hand is not as efficient and at prolonged idle will transfer the heat to the cylinder walls and have overheating issues. This was a more common problem with carb'd vehicles. Modern fuel injected engines have many sensors and handle this a bit better, but you'll hear the cooling fans come on with a gas engine way before a Diesel. I've left many of my Diesels idling for hours without trouble or overheating. In fact, thinking about it the 190D was idled for over three hours while I charged the AC. No heat rise whatsoever. Thinking back to the issue I had with it before at idle, the electromagnetic fan clutch had failed, so sitting with no cooling fan at a drivethrough caused it to get warm. Idling a Diesel used in automotive and light truck apps shouldn't be a problem. Diesel Dan and I chatted about this when he was up here, the companies don't like the big rigs idling because of the fuel consumption I guess... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) The revolt is underway, you can not stop it. FEAR THE PENGUIN!!!! May the SOURCE be With GNU - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:14:16 -0700 From: "Paul Schwartz" Subject: Re: Diesel Anti Theft? > Diesels used in public safety (fire trucks, ambulances) use something to idle > the engine up to 1000 or 1100 rpm. Trucks used by oil fields in alaska have > also have something to do this (and the new fangled diesels might do this > automatically). > The diesel trains used in the commute from SF to San Jose are left at the station idling all day. Although, under heavy loads these engines have been known to start grass fires from the hot carbon being pumped out at max load. It sounds like they idle at about 25 rpm. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:21:58 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: "pump diesel, go boom" ;) Hmmmm, I would not have been as nice as you were. My car would have remained running until I had reached my destination. Robert Chase mjmason-at-juno.com wrote: > Waylon wrote: > > "I try > to never shut my car off until I reach my destination - seems like most car > problems occur where the car was shut off and did not restart." > > I used to frequent the same fuel stop in my college town, for about 3 straught years (most of the cashiers knew the car, because the self-service island was right in front of their window and there weren't many 123s in the Iowa City area... I don't imagine that's changed much). > > Anyway, they had a "new hire" during my last year there, who hadn't been clued in that many folks DO leave their diesels running... I'd been having trouble with an odd spray pattern on an injector nozzle but hadn't isolated which one it was, so I had a very slight fuel leak (from fiddling with the lines) and was carrying a reserve can just in case) -- needless to say I stunk like diesel, and felt lucky to have the thing running (not keen on shutting it off). > > She came shrieking out the door at me at about 1:00 am, telling me I was going to blow the whole place to bits and needed to shut off my engine. I started to try to explain the relatively lower risk of fuel ignition/explosion of diesel when it's not under pressure (vs. gasoline), but she wasn't hearing any of it. Finally I just pointed over to the truck area (all Peterbilts, Kenworths, Internationals, etc. and all still running -- one guy filling up at that moment) and asked, "What's he doing, then?" > > Her response? "That's a truck. They don't run as hot as cars." > > Can't win for losing, I guess. Luckily, she restarted on the 2nd or 3rd try. (Man, I wish I'd hung onto that car.) > > Matt in IL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:41:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerome Kaidor Subject: Re: Idling a Diesel should not be a problem john wrote: > > A Diesel is very efficient and the fuel is burned in the center > of the cylinder, using the energy to move the piston and then transfer > the heat byproducts out the exhaust. > *** It's well known that diesel exhaust is not as hot as gasoline exhaust. That's why the turbos on our OM617s are so long-lived. > the companies don't like the big rigs idling because of the fuel consumption > I guess... *** Neither do the railroads. When I was doing railroad stuff, we had a couple of products that addressed that. First was the "Set-a-speed". Given a consist of several locomotives ( a "consist" is more than one loco coupled together), this gadget would move the train at a specified speed by setting individual locomotives to either idle or full throttle. At those two settings, the diesel motors were highly efficient, not so good in between. Then was the "shutdown". If a loco sits and idles for a long time - yeah, it sips fuel, but that sipped fuel isn't doing anything useful. And we're talking VERY LARGE ENGINES here. After a while, this thing would turn the engine off. But wait: if you leave the engine off too long, it will cool down, and it will cost you extra fuel to get it warmed up again. So before that happened, the "shutdown" would restart the engine. Before doing so, it would sound a klaxon, just in case somebody was fooling around in the engine compartment. They used to test those klaxons in our lab. Oh my aching ears! Fuel efficiency was a very big deal to the railroads. Basically, the only draw they had over the trucking companies was in being able to do it cheaper. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1146 **********************************