From: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net (diesel-benz-digest) To: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: diesel-benz-digest V1 #1149 Reply-To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Sender: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk diesel-benz-digest Friday, August 8 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1149 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: Correct brake fluid... Re: Synthetic gear oil in MBs Re: Synthetic gear oil in MBs Re: Correct brake fluid... Re[2]: Correct brake fluid... Re[2]: Correct brake fluid... Re: 300D Breather hose Re: Correct brake fluid... Re: Synthetic gear oil in MBs Re: Synthetic gear oil in MBs Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:48:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerome Kaidor Subject: Re: Correct brake fluid... Mike Frank wrote: > > Nothing. Dot3 and Dot 4 are interchangeable and fully compatible. Dot 4 > has a higher boiling point, so use it next time. > *** Old british cars require DOT4. Use DOT3, rot the seals. Mine both have DOT5 ( silicone ) in them. It's the perfect thing for cars that mostly sit.... - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:15:01 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: Synthetic gear oil in MBs John, I think synthetics are great oils for new engines. I would never put synthetics in an old engine though. The possibility of "cleaning out" whats making my engine run is too big of a risk to justify their advantages on an older engine for me. Robert Chase john wrote: > synthetics will clean an engine, but it won't strip > off years of builtup crude and varnish. it's oil, > not a solvent. :) > > john > > On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Black, Waylon wrote: > > >>-->Bing! A light goes off in my head. >>-->I acquired a 1984 Volvo diesel with a no -start condition. After charging >>-->the I drove it for about a week. Change the oil and filter to Mobil 1, car >>-->refused to start after about 100 miles AND managed to consume enough oil >>-->that it no longer registered on the stick. >>-->The possibilities..... >>--> >>-->Waylon >>--> >>-->I have heard stories (dont know if they are true or not) that some >>-->synthetics have cleaning detergents in them to clean the engine as the >>-->lubricate. The problem one runs into is the detergents tend to clean >>-->off the laquerized oil thats sticking to the engine parts. Sometimes it >>-->severely reduces compresssion over time by cleaning away the oil >>-->deposits that are blocking the holes in the engine. >>--> >>-->Robert Chase >>--> >>--> >>-->Black, Waylon wrote: >>--> >>-->> As part of my used car purchase, I like to replace all the fluids. I like >>-->to >>-->> replace the diff and trans fluids with synthetic because you never know >>-->how >>-->> long it has been since it was changed(if ever) and when you will ever >>-->change >>-->> it again. >>-->> >>-->> Some older domestics seem to have 'gear clash' with synthetics. Anyone >>-->have >>-->> problems with using synthetics in the MB gearboxes or diffs? >>-->> >>-->> Thanks, >>-->> Waylon >>--> > > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. > ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) > The revolt is underway, you can not stop it. FEAR THE PENGUIN!!!! > May the SOURCE be With GNU > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:25:22 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: Synthetic gear oil in MBs Hmmm, Found this on the web http://www.autopridegroup.com/flush.html They seem to be amsoil dealers. They have this in their description of their product. " NOTE: If your vehicle has over 80 or 90,000 miles on it or is more than 8 or 9 years old, and you are not currently using another synthetic oil, you may not wish to switch over to AMSOIL. Vehicles with such high mileage may have dry, cracked seals and gaskets. Having used conventional oils for so long (even with 3,000 mile oil changes), the sludge and deposits from oil burn-off may have caused a build-up to occur which is plugging the gaps around these seals and gaskets and preventing leaks. Although the risk is slight, flushing such an engine with AMSOIL Engine Flush might uncover these leaks and create the need for replacement. Depending upon your situation, you may not wish to do this. Even if you don't flush the engine and simply put AMSOIL Synthetic Oil in the engine, the high quality detergent additives in the oil would eventually clean out these deposits anyway. This is a decision that you will have to make on your own. You have read my warning, please take heed. However, if you are currently using a synthetic oil and have seen no detrimental effects, you would probably be ok to switch over to AMSOIL." john wrote: > synthetics will clean an engine, but it won't strip > off years of builtup crude and varnish. it's oil, > not a solvent. :) > > john > > On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Black, Waylon wrote: > > >>-->Bing! A light goes off in my head. >>-->I acquired a 1984 Volvo diesel with a no -start condition. After charging >>-->the I drove it for about a week. Change the oil and filter to Mobil 1, car >>-->refused to start after about 100 miles AND managed to consume enough oil >>-->that it no longer registered on the stick. >>-->The possibilities..... >>--> >>-->Waylon >>--> >>-->I have heard stories (dont know if they are true or not) that some >>-->synthetics have cleaning detergents in them to clean the engine as the >>-->lubricate. The problem one runs into is the detergents tend to clean >>-->off the laquerized oil thats sticking to the engine parts. Sometimes it >>-->severely reduces compresssion over time by cleaning away the oil >>-->deposits that are blocking the holes in the engine. >>--> >>-->Robert Chase >>--> >>--> >>-->Black, Waylon wrote: >>--> >>-->> As part of my used car purchase, I like to replace all the fluids. I like >>-->to >>-->> replace the diff and trans fluids with synthetic because you never know >>-->how >>-->> long it has been since it was changed(if ever) and when you will ever >>-->change >>-->> it again. >>-->> >>-->> Some older domestics seem to have 'gear clash' with synthetics. Anyone >>-->have >>-->> problems with using synthetics in the MB gearboxes or diffs? >>-->> >>-->> Thanks, >>-->> Waylon >>--> > > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. > ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) > The revolt is underway, you can not stop it. FEAR THE PENGUIN!!!! > May the SOURCE be With GNU > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:42:13 -0500 From: "Vernon Tuck" Subject: Re: Correct brake fluid... If DOT5 is the silicone based stuff as used in Corvettes I've been told that it is incompatible with the residues left over from the change of fluids. Unfortunately, long after we've forgotten that the person who told us something is an idiot, we remember what he said... So I don't know if this is true. But I'd say it bears looking into. VT - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Schwartz" To: Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 6:04 PM Subject: Re: Correct brake fluid... > Will MBZs tolerate DOT5 brake fluid? > > Paul > > > Dunno, > > > > Perhaps rust. Perhaps brake failure under extreme braking conditions > > (ie several 120mph stops). Dot4 has higher tempature capabilities and > > higher moisture absorbancy. > > > > Then again im not a mechanic just a curious reader. Might not do > > anything horrible :) > > > > Robert Chase > > > > > > Jim Hoffman wrote: > > >>Drilled and slotted rotors do several things for your car. They > > >>increase the cooling of the brake system to prevent boiling your > > >>brake fluid (not a problem on the MB's because they use dot4 rather > > >>than dot3 brake fluid which boils at a higher tempature). > > > > > > > > > Hmmmmm.... Somewhere I missed this dot4 requirement. I filled my > > > new system with dot3. What type of catostrophic failer can I look > > > forward to??? > > > > > > Jim/ > > > > > > '83 240D ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:56:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Welty Subject: Re[2]: Correct brake fluid... On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:18:10 -0400 Mike Frank wrote: > Nothing. Dot3 and Dot 4 are interchangeable and fully compatible. Dot 4 > has a higher boiling point, so use it next time. it's not quite that simple, although it's a workable rule of thumb. Ford Heavy Duty (a DOT 3 fluid) has a higher dry boiling point than many DOT 4 fluids, but its wet boiling point is lower than allowed by DOT 4 specs. it's well liked by racers because it's cheap and in a race car it never stays in a braking system long enough to be contaminated by water (racers tend to change out brake fluid religiously.) richard - -- Richard Welty rwelty-at-suespammers.org Averill Park Networking rwelty-at-averillpark.net Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com 518-573-7592 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:52:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Welty Subject: Re[2]: Correct brake fluid... On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:04:41 -0700 Paul Schwartz wrote: > Will MBZs tolerate DOT5 brake fluid? non-ABS ones, probably, however, DOT5 is not a silver bullet and you shouldn't switch to it w/o understanding the issues. and never run it in an ABS equipped car. richard - -- Richard Welty rwelty-at-suespammers.org Averill Park Networking rwelty-at-averillpark.net Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com 518-573-7592 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:05:40 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: 300D Breather hose You are correct, of course Alec. I responded on the fly addressing only the excessive pressure part of the question. After pressing the "send" button I realized the pressure would not build because of the open end. But then how do you account for the change in hose ending your top end oil leaks??? That would seem to indicate better pressure relief- or is it a better seal? Greg At 07:34 AM 8/7/03 , acordova-at-texas.net wrote: > > At 03:01 PM 8/6/03 , Jack Tavares wrote: > > >There is a breather hose that goes from the top of the valve cover (i > think) > > >to the air filter housing. > > > > > >I am worried that there is some problem causing excessive pressure > > >to blow the hose off. > > > > I would guess pressure resulting from bad valve stem seals. > > > > Greg > > > > > >But how would pressure build up in a hose that is open into the air cleaner >housing? > >i like the earlier suggestion about the hose being shaken loose by old motor >mounts and air cleaner housing mounts. > >Once I replaced that hose on my 85 300D with the newer, flatter version, the >oil leaks up top were resolved, and the hose never came off by itself. > >Alec Greg Fiorentino Vancouver USA gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net '84 300D Turbo '79 300TD '85 F-350 6.9 crew cab ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:12:51 -0700 From: "Derickam AA" Subject: Re: Correct brake fluid... I am using DOT 5 in the 190, have been for the past 6 months. I have had no problems braking. Derick Amburgey Automated Control Specialist Port Of Seattle/SeaTac Airport/Satellite Train System Amateur Radio Callsign: K7DXX List "Mom" of Diesel-Benz reflector 1985 Mercedes 190D "Tuti" 280,000 Mi (36 mpg) 1984 Mercedes 190D "Charity" 160,000 Mi (in rehab) 1981 Volkswagen Caddy 1.6L 66,000 Mi (50 mpg) - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Vernon Tuck" To: "Paul Schwartz" , Subject: Re: Correct brake fluid... Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:42:13 -0500 If DOT5 is the silicone based stuff as used in Corvettes I've been told that it is incompatible with the residues left over from the change of fluids. Unfortunately, long after we've forgotten that the person who told us something is an idiot, we remember what he said... So I don't know if this is true. But I'd say it bears looking into. VT - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Schwartz" To: Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 6:04 PM Subject: Re: Correct brake fluid... > Will MBZs tolerate DOT5 brake fluid? > > Paul > > > Dunno, > > > > Perhaps rust. Perhaps brake failure under extreme braking conditions > > (ie several 120mph stops). Dot4 has higher tempature capabilities and > > higher moisture absorbancy. > > > > Then again im not a mechanic just a curious reader. Might not do > > anything horrible :) > > > > Robert Chase > > > > > > Jim Hoffman wrote: > > >>Drilled and slotted rotors do several things for your car. They > > >>increase the cooling of the brake system to prevent boiling your > > >>brake fluid (not a problem on the MB's because they use dot4 rather > > >>than dot3 brake fluid which boils at a higher tempature). > > > > > > > > > Hmmmmm.... Somewhere I missed this dot4 requirement. I filled my > > > new system with dot3. What type of catostrophic failer can I look > > > forward to??? > > > > > > Jim/ > > > > > > '83 240D _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:04:28 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: Synthetic gear oil in MBs At 08:15 PM 8/7/2003 -0400, Robert Chase wrote: >John, > >I think synthetics are great oils for new engines. I would never put >synthetics in an old engine though. The possibility of "cleaning out" >whats making my engine run is too big of a risk to justify their >advantages on an older engine for me. I've done it regularly on used high mileage cars, both gas and Diesel many with over 200,000 miles with no problems. My '87 cherokee has 245,000 miles. I've owned over 90 vehicles, the vast majority I've switched to Amsoil synthetics (since 1983 when I became a dealer) and I've NEVER had a problem. Amsoil has actually reduced oil consumption and leaks on more then one engine. I can count on one hand the number of vehicles I've owned with less then 100,000 miles. :) Never had a problem, ever. I've bought at least 3 vehicles that have been severely neglected, run out of oil and coolant, neglected oil changes with gobs of goop in them... problem is I don't think I bothered to run synthetic in any of those because they were so pathetic I wasn't about to waste my money. :) If you have an engine that is that crapped up and ready to leak you've got bigger problems then switching to synthetics anyway... YMMV, but my experience has been favorable... I've seen significant fuel economy increase with amsoil in gas engines, never really noticed much change on Diesels, not sure why. But check out the stories and the myths and the mythinformation. Get the facts. Popular Science and a few other periodicals have done excellent well researched articles on synthetics. Don't believe communist, er consumer digest, they have a very flawed scientific methodology, or did the last time I bothered to look at their publication. john >Robert Chase > >john wrote: >>synthetics will clean an engine, but it won't strip >>off years of builtup crude and varnish. it's oil, >>not a solvent. :) >>john >>On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Black, Waylon wrote: >> >>>-->Bing! A light goes off in my head. >>>-->I acquired a 1984 Volvo diesel with a no -start condition. After charging >>>-->the I drove it for about a week. Change the oil and filter to Mobil >>>1, car >>>-->refused to start after about 100 miles AND managed to consume enough oil >>>-->that it no longer registered on the stick. >>>-->The possibilities..... >>>--> >>>-->Waylon >>>--> >>>-->I have heard stories (dont know if they are true or not) that some >>>-->synthetics have cleaning detergents in them to clean the engine as the >>>-->lubricate. The problem one runs into is the detergents tend to clean >>>-->off the laquerized oil thats sticking to the engine parts. Sometimes it >>>-->severely reduces compresssion over time by cleaning away the oil >>>-->deposits that are blocking the holes in the engine. >>>--> >>>-->Robert Chase >>>--> >>>--> >>>-->Black, Waylon wrote: >>>--> >>>-->> As part of my used car purchase, I like to replace all the fluids. >>>I like >>>-->to >>>-->> replace the diff and trans fluids with synthetic because you never know >>>-->how >>>-->> long it has been since it was changed(if ever) and when you will ever >>>-->change >>>-->> it again. >>>-->> >>>-->> Some older domestics seem to have 'gear clash' with synthetics. Anyone >>>-->have >>>-->> problems with using synthetics in the MB gearboxes or diffs? >>>-->> >>>-->> Thanks, >>>-->> Waylon >>>--> >> >> ---- >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net >> ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >> ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) >>The revolt is underway, you can not stop it. FEAR THE PENGUIN!!!! >> May the SOURCE be With GNU >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:18:50 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: Synthetic gear oil in MBs At 04:08 PM 8/7/2003 -0700, Paul Schwartz wrote: >To: "Diesel Benz" >Subject: Re: Synthetic gear oil in MBs >I think synthetics oils don't hold particles in suspension as naturally as >dino-oil. Consequently, they need heavy loads of detergents to suspend stuff >so it can be filtered out by the oil filter. >Paul not sure if I already mentioned it or not, but synthetics hold particles in suspension better then mineral oil because of their molecular structure and the "electrical" attraction they have. synthetics cling to things better, providing protection on startup. I've seen countless reports, studies and analysis on this stuff from the '70's on... I've got piles of articles on it here in my office. SAE reports, technical articles, magazine articles and of course amsoil literature. Get the facts, synthetics are great. Some are better then others, but pretty much any of the synthetics you can buy today are fine and orders of magnitude better then the best dino oil when it comes to shear strength, temperature range, resistance to breakdown from thermal stress and resistant to acid and even water. Four Wheeler magazine, Popular Science, just to name two, have found Amsoil synthetics and lubes to be superb. I've got a day job, don't really care one way or another if you buy from me or not. I'm not an amsoil dealer to make money but because it's good stuff. The main things I like about the amsoil synthetics are the extended drain intervals and high quality oil filters. The air filters are fantastic and the actual reason I signed up in 1983. Unfortunately I can't get one for my 300d. :( Synthetics offer better startup protection and won't break down under high heat or load. If you care about your car run a synthetic, there are some inexpensive ones out there. Mobil 1 is a synthesized hydrocarbon and is fine and affordable, but not designed for extended drains. Their additive package breaks down pretty much around the same time as dino oil. Regular oil doesn't really wear out, it's the additive packages that wear out, and of course the oil gets dirty and contaminated with acids, combustion by products and moisture. One thing you never want to do is run a 10W40 oil in a Diesel because they are notorious for problems with the additive package. At least that was true a few years ago... not sure why that one in particular is a problem. The other thing is you want to make sure you select a C (combustion) rated SAE oil. CD, CE or CF, and the funny thing about the C ratings is that once you get up over CD the ratings vary based on whether it has a turbo or not. I'll have to dig up the SAE info again. If you have an oil that is only rated with an S, like SF, don't use it in a Diesel. The S stands for spark and will not provide the shear properties required for a Diesel engine. If you're using a Dino oil it's better to use a straight weight, like 30W. That way you don't have to worry about the additive package as much. I run the Marine Grade 15w40 synthetic Diesel in my turbo Diesels. The HD 30W Diesel is fine too. I've used the 5w30 in my non-turbo Diesels before with good success as well. Just look for that "C" rating on any oil. The other issue with oils is the volatility. It tends to boil off and leave you with thicker oil over time. Amsoil has a number of charts showing how it performs compared to a variety of other oils. Bottom line, use the best oil you can afford and change it and the filters regularly. IF you are going to go the extended drain interval then I recommend oil analysis. It's like $10 for a sample. It showed me that I had a bad injector on one occasion... the lab CALLED me and told me about it... my amsoil 15w40 in my cherokee TD was the equivalent of 60W (or was it more) oil because the oil was holding the extra Diesel in suspension... not sure why it did that but that's what the lab guy told me... you'd think it would have thinned it... maybe because the lighter stuff boiled off and it left the solids and paraffins, right? anyway, sorry to go long... the facts associated with any synthetics are often missed. I've run into a lot of mechanics who didn't like them, possibly because of early products that weren't good in the late '70's. But more then one mechanic that has worked on my rigs has gradually warmed up to them, and seem to encourage their use now. The longest I've ever gone with a synthetic was about 23,000 miles. The only problem is I didn't change the filter at 12,500 miles or 6 months like I was supposed to. But the oil had all A's and B's except for one C or D, I think for silicon... which means the oil had a bunch of crap in suspension. :) I had changed the oil anyway but had it analyzed for grins, just for my own confirmation that it was safe. Wish I'd changed the filter so I'd known with a "glowing" report that it worked. I rarely go more then about 8,000 miles with it in my Diesels, of course the Benz manual says 7,5000 miles, right? Or was that a different Benz. What is the oil change that MB recommends on these things? My '85 Cherokee with the 2.1L TD said 7,5000 miles!!!! That's insane... at least with dino oil... I used to change my dino oil every 2 to 3 thousand miles... since I usually put maybe 10K on a car in a year it's pretty safe for me to go a year on an oil change... shoot, most of the time I don't keep a car long enough to change the oil... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1149 **********************************