From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Sun Aug 24 22:08:08 2003 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Monday, August 25 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1187 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: found the leak - looks relatively easy Re: shopping special tools really needed? Re: shopping Re: special tools really needed? Re: the ignition lock from hades Re: special tools really needed? Re: the ignition lock from hades Re: special tools really needed? Re: special tools really needed? Re: special tools really needed? Re: special tools really needed? Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:14:58 -0700 From: john Subject: found the leak - looks relatively easy looks like the pressure-valve-seal is the possible source of the leak... only took about three hours with these stupid CDs to find it... probably take less time to fix then to figure it out from the "manuals". looks like the pressure valve seal is leaking on #3 cylinder. I'm thinking I should replace all of them at the same time... thoughts? suggestions? caveats? They call out a special tool to get the injector line off and also to do the valve... I wonder how much this will cost. :) http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/pressure-valve-seal-124.jpg http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/pressure-valve-seal-124-07.1-8627.pdf here's the picture of the leak/seep/weeping (moved it to this directory) http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/2.5l-inj-pump-leak.jpg john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:17:06 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: shopping there is no comparison of an american motors and a mercedes... they both have tires, paint and metal, other then that... ;) the ignition system on the benz is so radically different then anything AMC dreamed up I don't know why you even mentioned it... except of course to make us feel bad. ;) john At 07:57 PM 8/24/2003 -0700, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 07:39:55PM -0700, Jerome Kaidor wrote: > > I printed out the instructions for R&R of the ignition switch. Wonder > > if the electrical switch can be replaced without pulling the whole thing > > out? > >Generally speaking, if you can't turn the key enough to the point where the >hole is exposed, you are going to be doing major surgery. In a 190D, this >requires use of a sawzall and possibly removal of the steering column if you >don't have a steady hand :) > >On something far less elegant than a mercedes (an 81 eagle wagon), I used a >pair of big ol pliers to turn the ignition cylinder until the hole was >exposed. >An eagle has tabs on the side of the ignition cylinder to turn, however. > >K > >-- >Kevin Pekarek >Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and >Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) >85 190D (601, 5spd) - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:46:08 -0700 From: john Subject: special tools really needed? the injection lines call out a special tool: 000 589 77 03 00 (looks like a crows foot for flare nuts... any problem with just using my flare nut wrenches?) torque is 10-20 Nm for the injector lines (7 ft lbs to 14.75 ft lbs - hardly worth dragging out the torque wrench... ;) the pressure valve holder has a tightening torque of 35 Nm and calls out a special tool 617 589 01 09 00, it looks like it slides over the splines on the injector valve... vise grips would probably work, especially at this torque value. (35 Nm = 25 ft lbs) thoughts? http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/pressure-valve-seal-124.jpg http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/TECH/124-series/pressure-valve-seal-124-07.1-8627.pdf john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:55:12 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: shopping On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 08:17:06PM -0700, john wrote: > they both have tires, paint and metal, other then that... ;) :) > the ignition system on the benz is so radically different then > anything AMC dreamed up I don't know why you even mentioned it... > except of course to make us feel bad. ;) Naw. Just an illustration that you don't always have to be elegant, but then again, you know this with the sawzall. The point about the pliers was that there are ways of getting it to turn when it won't turn - use leverage. Basically, an ignition cylinder comes out the same way, you have to turn the key to expose a hole, stick something in the hole, and out it comes. If you are going to throw the cylinder away, then who cares what you have to do to get it out? I'd probably feel safer not attacking a piece of german efficiency with a sawzall. :) On the benz, you could try putting the key in, and using a screwdriver down the side of the key. Attach some vice grips to the screwdriver's shaft, and maybe a long wrench over that for leverage. I guess I got too used to having harbor freight around and have "disposable" tools for when I need to do something like that. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:11:31 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: special tools really needed? On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 08:46:08PM -0700, john wrote: > the injection lines call out a special tool: > 000 589 77 03 00 > (looks like a crows foot for flare nuts... any problem with > just using my flare nut wrenches?) > > torque is 10-20 Nm for the injector lines > (7 ft lbs to 14.75 ft lbs - hardly worth dragging out the > torque wrench... ;) > > > the pressure valve holder has a tightening torque of 35 Nm > and calls out a special tool 617 589 01 09 00, it looks > like it slides over the splines on the injector valve... vise > grips would probably work, especially at this torque value. > (35 Nm = 25 ft lbs) > > thoughts? Well, the 602 is related to the 601, and I remember trying to crack those lines loose on your 601 back in may. It wasn't happening with your flare nut wrenches. Didn't you get a set of crows feet at shucks while I was up there? :) Either way, performanceproducts.com has that tool for $47. AFA the torque, the light setting might be important, because there are a lot of soft metals in there, and too much torque might cause you problems. I don't know about the pressure valve holder, but I have a set of needle nosed vice grips that have a 90 degree angle in the tips that would probably do what you want. You can get the "official" tool for $43.18 from http://www.samstagsales.com/mercedes.htm (and fwiw, he has that tool performanceproducts.com wants $47 for for $34.40, but we've never known performanceproducts.com to be the lowest price around ). K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:15:30 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: the ignition lock from hades At 08:55 PM 8/24/2003 -0700, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >Naw. Just an illustration that you don't always have to be elegant, but >then again, you know this with the sawzall. The point about the pliers was >that there are ways of getting it to turn when it won't turn - use leverage. >Basically, an ignition cylinder comes out the same way, you have to turn the >key to expose a hole, stick something in the hole, and out it comes. If you >are going to throw the cylinder away, then who cares what you have to do to >get it out? I'd probably feel safer not attacking a piece of german efficiency >with a sawzall. :) > >On the benz, you could try putting the key in, and using a screwdriver down >the side of the key. Attach some vice grips to the screwdriver's shaft, and >maybe a long wrench over that for leverage. I guess I got too used to having >harbor freight around and have "disposable" tools for when I need to do >something like that. sure... you think that would work? I'll send my camcorder down along with a tripod... I want to get this on film... ;) we tried every trick possible to avoid the sawzall solution. That lock cylinder is not coming out of that ignition module the same way an american lock would. The germans went bonzo with their locks to preven theft. An american lock you could use a dent puller to extract the cylinder... a benz lock would laugh at you if you tried that. An american lock can be removed with a paperclip and the key... I've yet to have an american lock fail the way a benz lock will fail. A functioning benz lock requires a unique tool and finesse... if it's not working it's an ugly experience I hope no one else has to experience. :) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:17:51 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: special tools really needed? If I had more time I'd check with Rusty, but I can swing by the dealer on my way to class tomorrow night and hopefully get all the pieces needed... going to smell Diesel for a few days I guess... :) At least this isn't squirting out like it was on the 190D! That was pretty cool looking... might not drive in on Tuesday, but tomorrow I have to do a lot of driving and at nearly $2/gallon I don't really want to drive the '87 XJ. john At 09:11 PM 8/24/2003 -0700, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 08:46:08PM -0700, john wrote: > > the injection lines call out a special tool: > > 000 589 77 03 00 > > (looks like a crows foot for flare nuts... any problem with > > just using my flare nut wrenches?) > > > > torque is 10-20 Nm for the injector lines > > (7 ft lbs to 14.75 ft lbs - hardly worth dragging out the > > torque wrench... ;) > > > > > > the pressure valve holder has a tightening torque of 35 Nm > > and calls out a special tool 617 589 01 09 00, it looks > > like it slides over the splines on the injector valve... vise > > grips would probably work, especially at this torque value. > > (35 Nm = 25 ft lbs) > > > > thoughts? > >Well, the 602 is related to the 601, and I remember trying to crack those >lines loose on your 601 back in may. It wasn't happening with your flare >nut wrenches. Didn't you get a set of crows feet at shucks while I was >up there? :) Either way, performanceproducts.com has that tool for $47. > >AFA the torque, the light setting might be important, because there are a >lot of soft metals in there, and too much torque might cause you problems. > >I don't know about the pressure valve holder, but I have a set of needle nosed >vice grips that have a 90 degree angle in the tips that would probably do >what you want. You can get the "official" tool for $43.18 from >http://www.samstagsales.com/mercedes.htm (and fwiw, he has that tool >performanceproducts.com wants $47 for for $34.40, but we've never known >performanceproducts.com to be the lowest price around ). > >K > >-- >Kevin Pekarek >Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and >Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) >85 190D (601, 5spd) - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:20:35 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: the ignition lock from hades On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 09:15:30PM -0700, john wrote: > sure... you think that would work? I'll send my camcorder down along with > a tripod... I want to get this on film... ;) > > we tried every trick possible to avoid the sawzall solution. That lock > cylinder is not coming out of that ignition module the same way an american > lock would. The germans went bonzo with their locks to preven theft. An > american lock you could use a dent puller to extract the cylinder... a benz > lock would laugh at you if you tried that. Well, fortunate for me, Derick already took care of my cylinder. I'm sure this won't be my last benz, though, so if this problem happens to me, I'll be sure to take pictures of what happens when a hack like me needs to use engineering tools (cold beer) to solve a problem :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:26:36 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: special tools really needed? On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 09:17:51PM -0700, john wrote: > If I had more time I'd check with Rusty, but I can > swing by the dealer on my way to class tomorrow night > and hopefully get all the pieces needed... going > to smell Diesel for a few days I guess... :) > > might not drive in on Tuesday, but tomorrow I have to > do a lot of driving and at nearly $2/gallon I don't > really want to drive the '87 XJ. Well, if you're not going to fix it for a couple of days, it might be worthwhile to call rusty up. Fortunately, diesel seeping isn't a big fire hazard like it would be on a gasser. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:39:19 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: special tools really needed? Well, if you're not going to fix it for a couple of days, it >might be worthwhile to call rusty up. if the parts aren't in Seattle then I probably will... I'm working up in Marysville, can run down I-5 into Seattle, pickup the parts, head over the I-90 floating bridge to Bellevue and class... if Phil Smart doesn't have 'em I will call Rusty, unless he sees this and shoots me a quote. ;) john >Fortunately, diesel seeping isn't a big fire hazard like it >would be on a gasser. > >K > >-- >Kevin Pekarek >Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and >Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) >85 190D (601, 5spd) - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:36:47 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: special tools really needed? Word of advice. Carry your fire extinguisher. While diesel is hard to ignite having a flaming Mercedes is not a fun scenerio. Strange things do go wrong in an engine compartment. Having wet fuel in there laying around can "ignite" problems quickly :) Robert. john wrote: > If I had more time I'd check with Rusty, but I can > swing by the dealer on my way to class tomorrow night > and hopefully get all the pieces needed... going > to smell Diesel for a few days I guess... :) > > At least this isn't squirting out like it was on the > 190D! That was pretty cool looking... > > might not drive in on Tuesday, but tomorrow I have to > do a lot of driving and at nearly $2/gallon I don't > really want to drive the '87 XJ. > > john > > > At 09:11 PM 8/24/2003 -0700, Kevin Pekarek wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 08:46:08PM -0700, john wrote: >> > the injection lines call out a special tool: >> > 000 589 77 03 00 >> > (looks like a crows foot for flare nuts... any problem with >> > just using my flare nut wrenches?) >> > >> > torque is 10-20 Nm for the injector lines >> > (7 ft lbs to 14.75 ft lbs - hardly worth dragging out the >> > torque wrench... ;) >> > >> > >> > the pressure valve holder has a tightening torque of 35 Nm >> > and calls out a special tool 617 589 01 09 00, it looks >> > like it slides over the splines on the injector valve... vise >> > grips would probably work, especially at this torque value. >> > (35 Nm = 25 ft lbs) >> > >> > thoughts? >> >> Well, the 602 is related to the 601, and I remember trying to crack those >> lines loose on your 601 back in may. It wasn't happening with your flare >> nut wrenches. Didn't you get a set of crows feet at shucks while I was >> up there? :) Either way, performanceproducts.com has that tool for $47. >> >> AFA the torque, the light setting might be important, because there are a >> lot of soft metals in there, and too much torque might cause you >> problems. >> >> I don't know about the pressure valve holder, but I have a set of >> needle nosed >> vice grips that have a 90 degree angle in the tips that would probably do >> what you want. You can get the "official" tool for $43.18 from >> http://www.samstagsales.com/mercedes.htm (and fwiw, he has that tool >> performanceproducts.com wants $47 for for $34.40, but we've never known >> performanceproducts.com to be the lowest price around ). >> >> K >> >> -- >> Kevin Pekarek >> Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and >> Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) >> 85 190D (601, 5spd) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:47:04 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: special tools really needed? good advice... will grab it out of the shop... :) john At 12:36 AM 8/25/2003 -0400, Robert Chase wrote: >Word of advice. > >Carry your fire extinguisher. While diesel is hard to ignite having a >flaming Mercedes is not a fun scenerio. Strange things do go wrong in an >engine compartment. Having wet fuel in there laying around can "ignite" >problems quickly :) > >Robert. > >john wrote: >>If I had more time I'd check with Rusty, but I can >>swing by the dealer on my way to class tomorrow night >>and hopefully get all the pieces needed... going >>to smell Diesel for a few days I guess... :) >>At least this isn't squirting out like it was on the >>190D! That was pretty cool looking... >>might not drive in on Tuesday, but tomorrow I have to >>do a lot of driving and at nearly $2/gallon I don't >>really want to drive the '87 XJ. >>john >> >>At 09:11 PM 8/24/2003 -0700, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >> >>>On Sun, Aug 24, 2003 at 08:46:08PM -0700, john wrote: >>> > the injection lines call out a special tool: >>> > 000 589 77 03 00 >>> > (looks like a crows foot for flare nuts... any problem with >>> > just using my flare nut wrenches?) >>> > >>> > torque is 10-20 Nm for the injector lines >>> > (7 ft lbs to 14.75 ft lbs - hardly worth dragging out the >>> > torque wrench... ;) >>> > >>> > >>> > the pressure valve holder has a tightening torque of 35 Nm >>> > and calls out a special tool 617 589 01 09 00, it looks >>> > like it slides over the splines on the injector valve... vise >>> > grips would probably work, especially at this torque value. >>> > (35 Nm = 25 ft lbs) >>> > >>> > thoughts? >>> >>>Well, the 602 is related to the 601, and I remember trying to crack those >>>lines loose on your 601 back in may. It wasn't happening with your flare >>>nut wrenches. Didn't you get a set of crows feet at shucks while I was >>>up there? :) Either way, performanceproducts.com has that tool for $47. >>> >>>AFA the torque, the light setting might be important, because there are a >>>lot of soft metals in there, and too much torque might cause you problems. >>> >>>I don't know about the pressure valve holder, but I have a set of needle >>>nosed >>>vice grips that have a 90 degree angle in the tips that would probably do >>>what you want. You can get the "official" tool for $43.18 from >>>http://www.samstagsales.com/mercedes.htm (and fwiw, he has that tool >>>performanceproducts.com wants $47 for for $34.40, but we've never known >>>performanceproducts.com to be the lowest price around ). >>> >>>K >>> >>>-- >>>Kevin Pekarek >>>Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and >>>Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) >>>85 190D (601, 5spd) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >> http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ >> Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >> Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >>------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1187 **********************************