From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Wed Sep 24 18:21:50 2003 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, September 24 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1228 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Diesel or gas? RE: [db] 300SD 4th gear [db] More Legends of Dieseldom Re: [db] Diesel or gas? Re: [db] Diesel or gas? RE: [db] Diesel or gas? Re: [db] Diesel or gas? [db] what's the problem? [db] oil leak & grumbling Re: [db] oil leak & grumbling [db] Front Euro Plate Re: [db] what's the problem? Re: [db] what's the problem? Re: [db] what's the problem? Re: [db] what's the problem? Re: [db] oil leak & grumbling Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:16:07 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Re: [db] Diesel or gas? An OM617 is a good state of tune will start unassisted down to -5 degrees or so. Much lower than that and you'll want to plug it in. Below freezing is not an issue for a car that is running well. Given the cars you are looking at, I think I would take the SD over the SEL, unless you are craving a faster car with the associated increase in fuel economy. J.B. At 11:04 AM 9/23/2003 -0400, you wrote: > I'm thinking of buying either an 82-85 300SD (approx 180k miles) or an > 86 420 SEL (approx 110k miles) or maybe a 300E. We get 3 or 4 months in > winter that usually are below freezing and I won't always be able to plug > the diesel in over night. I know the diesel engine will last a lot longer > but I'm worried about not being able to start it after working my night > shift. I'd appreciate some advice from those of you that have experience > with these diesels in winter. >The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:20:10 CDT From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: RE: [db] 300SD 4th gear That IS 4th gear. Aside from providing a lovely intake sound when you stomp it, this gearing provides for fairly prompt response from the engine when you ask for something while cruising the freeway. Don't you enjoy the way you can accelerate up to 75+ in that heavy car with only 120 or so horsepower? Never forget that these motors, like most benz motors, were engineered to be able to run pretty much flat out all day long. As long as your motor is in decent shape, you could take it on up to 4500 rpm and drive like that for happy hours and hours, or until the cops stopped you for going about a hundred mph. In fact, these motors behave better when they get to work regularly. We have a regular on another mercedes mailing list that has run his W126 300SD in the Silver State Classic, where they legally block off 90 miles or so of not- just-straight Nevada highways once or twice a year. I believe he *averaged* 105 mph. He actually averaged something like 104.387, which yielded 8th place or so in the 105 class. See http://www.silverstateclassic.com for more info. Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 161K > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] > On Behalf Of S.D.Byers > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 9:40 PM > To: Diesel-Benz List > Subject: [db] 300SD 4th gear > > > I have a 1983/4 300SD with 208k miles that will not go into 4th gear, I > think. At 67 mph the rpms are around 3200. I can accelerate up to 75+ > the coast and it will not shift. > > It gets 31 mpg on the highway in this state, I just did 1700 miles like > this. Pretty good effort under the circumstances. > > > I am going to change tranny fluid and filter (probably overdue as > previous owner was a bit of a slacker) and play with the throttle-tranny > cable and also look at the shifter linkage. > > > Any great wisdom I should be taking with me under the vehicle? > > SDB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:42:43 CDT From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: [db] More Legends of Dieseldom More info on what I mentioned earlier about a 300SD in the Silver State Classic Challenge. It was indeed the venerable Al Lumas, a regular on Dave & Esa's Original Mercedes Mailing List. In September of 2000, Al and June drove their fairly stock 84 300SD to an average speed of 101.4723mph, placing 9th of 12 in the 100mph class. I think he's been in it again since then, but I couldn't find the details. Still not bad for an old diesel. ;-) Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 161K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:10:42 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] Diesel or gas? Diesel, It will outlast the gas car at least by two times. If you keep up on your glow plugs you should be fine unless you live in Siberia. Robert Chase paul.mcleod-at-excite.com wrote: > I'm thinking of buying either an 82-85 300SD (approx 180k miles) or an 86 420 SEL (approx 110k miles) or maybe a 300E. We get 3 or 4 months in winter that usually are below freezing and I won't always be able to plug the diesel in over night. I know the diesel engine will last a lot longer but I'm worried about not being able to start it after working my night shift. I'd appreciate some advice from those of you that have experience with these diesels in winter. > The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:12:40 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] Diesel or gas? Hmmm, Living in Atlanta I have never had to start my diesel in negative tempatures. One would think that you could get it started by just extending the preglow period. Perhaps 5 minutes of repeat preglow cycles would get it up to temp and warm enough to start? Robert Chase J.B. Hebert wrote: > An OM617 is a good state of tune will start unassisted down to -5 > degrees or so. Much lower than that and you'll want to plug it in. > Below freezing is not an issue for a car that is running well. Given > the cars you are looking at, I think I would take the SD over the SEL, > unless you are craving a faster car with the associated increase in fuel > economy. > > J.B. > > At 11:04 AM 9/23/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >> I'm thinking of buying either an 82-85 300SD (approx 180k miles) or >> an 86 420 SEL (approx 110k miles) or maybe a 300E. We get 3 or 4 >> months in winter that usually are below freezing and I won't always be >> able to plug the diesel in over night. I know the diesel engine will >> last a lot longer but I'm worried about not being able to start it >> after working my night shift. I'd appreciate some advice from those of >> you that have experience with these diesels in winter. >> The most personalized portal on the Web! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:17:12 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: [db] Diesel or gas? That's not always sufficient in and of itself. That will just warm up the prechambers. You still have a cold engine, thick oil, and a weaker battery. A successfully balanced approach to cold weather in an OM617 should include adjusting the valves at the recommended 15,000 mile interval, and ensuring glow plugs and battery are not too old. I have also heard that synthetic motor oil makes a very noticeable improvement in seriously cold starting. While I believe this information to be good, my diesels lived in central Texas, so we didn't get a lot of practice at dealing with really cold weather. Alec > -----Original Message----- > Hmmm, > > Living in Atlanta I have never had to start my diesel in negative > tempatures. One would think that you could get it started by just > extending the preglow period. Perhaps 5 minutes of repeat preglow > cycles would get it up to temp and warm enough to start? > > Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:41:04 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] Diesel or gas? Yeah, Neither does mine here in Atlanta. I even think I have a bad glow plug or two since my car is a little rough when it starts on cooler days.... Better get it taken care of before the major cold weather comes in might not be able to get it started on one of thos 50 degree days :) Im about to send my dyno oil out for analysis speaking of oil stuff. Robert Chase Alec Cordova wrote: > That's not always sufficient in and of itself. That will just warm up the > prechambers. You still have a cold engine, thick oil, and a weaker battery. > A successfully balanced approach to cold weather in an OM617 should include > adjusting the valves at the recommended 15,000 mile interval, and ensuring > glow plugs and battery are not too old. I have also heard that synthetic > motor oil makes a very noticeable improvement in seriously cold starting. > > While I believe this information to be good, my diesels lived in central > Texas, so we didn't get a lot of practice at dealing with really cold > weather. > > Alec > > >>-----Original Message----- >>Hmmm, >> >>Living in Atlanta I have never had to start my diesel in negative >>tempatures. One would think that you could get it started by just >>extending the preglow period. Perhaps 5 minutes of repeat preglow >>cycles would get it up to temp and warm enough to start? >> >>Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:43:52 -0400 From: Holly Horton Subject: [db] what's the problem? My 87 300sdl 197k was blowing out black smoke during accelerating as I drove around town. I figured I needed to blow out the carbon, since I had not done any highway driving in awhile, so I took it up on the highway for about 20 min. The black smoke stopped. I figured... hey, got rid of that carbon! I drove from Orlando to St Pete (about 100 miles) the next day. At about 90 miles into the trip I noticed the black smoke on acceleration again. I got to my exit and stopped at the stoplight and then the car stalled. I tried to start it numerous times but it wouldn't turn over. Of course when MB roadside assistance got there the car started. I drove it to a repair shop in St Pete where they diagnosed the problem as clogged air / fuel filters and some bad fuel lines. So, with my new filters / lines I drive back to Orlando. Same thing happened - about 90 miles into the drive the black smoke appears. The traffic becomes stop and go and when I stop the car stalls. Fortunately I knew from the first stall out that if I waited then the car would start, which it did, and I drove home without incident. Since the first shop didn't fix the problem thought I would educate myself before I go to another shop. So, any thoughts as to the cause of the black smoke / stall outs? Thanks, in advance, for your replies. - --Holly 87 300sdl 197k ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:36:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Anaeis N Subject: [db] oil leak & grumbling That oil leak has gotten worse, apparently. Today when I started the car, it took longer than usual and immediately there was an additional noise that was lower-pitched and louder than the usual grumble. I turned it off immediately and checked the oil, which turned out to be a bit under the low-oil mark. I haven't driven it since. Is that sound and the delay starting and the hard shut down connected to the oil loss? How much do I need to refill in order for a safe drive 10 miles to the mechanic? And do you see any problem with the Rotella T SAE 15W-40 I've been using? In addition, I'm seeing some darkened spots under the plastic at various places in the rectangular panel with the knobs and warning lamps. Could that be oil or other leak related? Muchos gracias, R '82 300CD -- 223,100 miles Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:59:48 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] oil leak & grumbling Anaeis N wrote: > That oil leak has gotten worse, apparently. Today when I started the car, it took longer than usual and immediately there was an additional noise that was lower-pitched and louder than the usual grumble. I turned it off immediately and checked the oil, which turned out to be a bit under the low-oil mark. I haven't driven it since. > > Is that sound and the delay starting and the hard shut down connected to the oil loss? > > How much do I need to refill in order for a safe drive 10 miles to the mechanic? Its best to add a little and then check it. Im not sure about the ratio of quarts to the dipstick because my 300SD does not leak nor burn oil at this point. Perhaps in the future I may become familiar with this. > > And do you see any problem with the Rotella T SAE 15W-40 I've been using? I was using Rotella T until I realized it was not on the approved lubricants list in my owners manual. I don't think your doing any damage and Rotella is probably fine. I just like to stick to approved MB lubricants and fluids because Im anal retentive and I know the MB engineers were too :). I got 6 gallons of Delo 400 at Costco for about $30 and did oil changes on my car and my brothers 300D at the same time. Its on the approved lubricant and fluid list so its fine with me. > > In addition, I'm seeing some darkened spots under the plastic at various places in the rectangular panel with the knobs and warning lamps. Hmmmmm Dunno about that one. I would "take a look" up there and make sure that there is not oil eating away at the plastic in your dash. If your cluster is still leaking go to the store and get some diapers and take one or two and put them under the cluster to absorb the oil until you get it fixed. > > Could that be oil or other leak related? > > Muchos gracias, > > R > > '82 300CD -- 223,100 miles > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:08:43 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: [db] Front Euro Plate My 300SD came with a rather dented and worn Mercedes Benz emblem plate on the front. It was old and honestly pretty worn out so I removed it. I have been considering getting a European Style plate for the front of the car but I notice I have a big pointy bumper with a recess for an US style plate. Is there an adaptor or something for US model cars? Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:52:55 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] what's the problem? On Tue, Sep 23, 2003 at 08:43:52PM -0400, Holly Horton wrote: > I drove from Orlando to St Pete (about 100 miles) the next day. > At about 90 miles into the trip I noticed the black smoke on > acceleration > again. I got to my exit and stopped at the stoplight and then the car > stalled. > I tried to start it numerous times but it wouldn't turn over. Of course > when MB roadside assistance got there the car started. > > Since the first shop didn't fix the problem thought I would educate > myself before I go to another shop. So, any thoughts as to the cause of > the black smoke / stall outs? Black smoke means you're running rich, so I would suspect either the ALDA (which I have no idea what it is, other than it's an air pressure sensor), or something preventing enough air from entering the engine (clogged air filter, etc). I know on a gasser that too much fuel wouldn't fire, I'd imagine too much fuel without enough air to burn all the fuel would seriously ruin a diesel's day at the very minimum. I am not really sure why 90 miles of heat (hour and a half?) would cause you to run rich enough to cause these problems, but that is what it sounds like is happening. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:09:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerome Kaidor Subject: Re: [db] what's the problem? Kevin Pekarek wrote: > > > Black smoke means you're running rich, so I would suspect either the ALDA > (which I have no idea what it is, other than it's an air pressure sensor), *** Yup, that's what it is. You can think of the ALDA as an altimeter. Even non-turbocharged diesels have them, but it has a different name. The ALDA just has the ability to measure significantly below sea level. Without some sort of atmosphere input, the injection pump can only decide how much to pump based on two inputs: * How fast the engine is turning. * How hard you press on the loud pedal. In order to arrive at a perfect relationship of X molecules of oxigen burning Y molecules of fuel, the pump needs one more thing: How thick is the air? You can arrive at a compromise that sort of works by saying that most people will drive at 500 above sea level on a standard day.... But that's not very good. The solution is to measure the pressure. An even better solution would be to also measure the temperature of the air, one could then arrive at the air density, which is a direct measurement of the number of air molecules per unit volume. But while it was easy enough to measure air temperature in the 80's, it was hard to do anything with it without a CPU, so the ALDA was the compromise of the day. The ALDA consists of a bellows that shrinks and expands with respect to air pressure. That bellows is connected to a linkage into the guts of the injection pump. It's important enough that if you disconnect the pressure line to the ALDA, you have effectively disabled the turbo. Because then the extra air that the turbo produces is not matched by extra fuel. Mercedes took advantage of this fact to create a safety system that disables turbo boost if the wastegate fails. An air pressure switch mounted on the intake manifold shuts down the pressure feed to the ALDA if the manifold pressure gets too high. I seem to remember that if the wastegate fails, the turbo can produce over 40 PSI - enough to inflate tires! - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:56:08 CDT From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: Re: [db] what's the problem? > I seem to remember that if the wastegate fails, the > turbo can produce over 40 PSI - enough to inflate tires! > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) > It just might inflate them a little too fast to be controllable, considering the volume of air moved by the turbo. ;-) Alec ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:58:56 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Re: [db] what's the problem? Might be a little hot, too. But would be a very fast CTIS system. J.B. At 09:56 AM 9/24/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > I seem to remember that if the wastegate fails, the > > turbo can produce over 40 PSI - enough to inflate tires! > > > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) > > > >It just might inflate them a little too fast to be controllable, considering >the volume of air moved by the turbo. ;-) > >Alec ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:09:48 CDT From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: Re: [db] oil leak & grumbling > Anaeis N wrote: > > That oil leak has gotten worse, apparently. Today when I started the car, it took longer than usual and immediately there was an additional noise that was lower-pitched and louder than the usual grumble. I turned it off immediately and checked the oil, which turned out to be a bit under the low-oil mark. I haven't driven it since. > > > > Is that sound and the delay starting and the hard shut down connected to the oil loss? > > > > How much do I need to refill in order for a safe drive 10 miles to the mechanic? > > Its best to add a little and then check it. Im not sure about the ratio > of quarts to the dipstick because my 300SD does not leak nor burn oil at > this point. Perhaps in the future I may become familiar with this. > **** Difference between the Add and Full marks on the oil dipstick is usually about one liter/one quart. I have seen a reference somewhere that MB may have used two quarts as the difference, but both my 85 300D and my 89 300CE have had minor drinking problems, and they both have gone from Add to Full with about one quart. Also, as long as you aren't trying to run that Silver State Classis Challenge at 100mph, you are not likely to damage the car by running it with the oil slightly below the dipstick Add mark. These motors hold lots of oil. They can survive being a half quart below the Add mark for at least a tank or two of gas. Standard recommendation from MB is to NOT add any oil until it reaches down to the Add mark on the dipstick. Knowing that we cannot monitor oil level every second, it follows that the oil level would actually get BELOW the Add mark before we can detect that. **** > > > > And do you see any problem with the Rotella T SAE 15W-40 I've been using? > > I was using Rotella T until I realized it was not on the approved > lubricants list in my owners manual. I don't think your doing any > damage and Rotella is probably fine. I just like to stick to approved > MB lubricants and fluids because Im anal retentive and I know the MB > engineers were too :). I got 6 gallons of Delo 400 at Costco for about > $30 and did oil changes on my car and my brothers 300D at the same time. > Its on the approved lubricant and fluid list so its fine with me. > **** According to http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html, Shell Rotella T 15W-40 does in fact have MB 228.1 approval, "for diesels, SHPD (Super High Performance Diesel) oil, multi-viscosity, drain interval to 30,000 km." Chevron Delo 400 Multigrade SAE 15W-40 has 228.3 approval, "for diesels, minimum spec for CDIs, multi- viscosity SHPD (Super High Performance Diesel) oil, extended drain intervals up to 45,000 km," and since the two are usually about the same price, I would say that Delo is the better choice, but Rotella T is officially acceptable for use. **** > > > > In addition, I'm seeing some darkened spots under the plastic at various places in the rectangular panel with the knobs and warning lamps. > > Hmmmmm Dunno about that one. I would "take a look" up there and make > sure that there is not oil eating away at the plastic in your dash. If > your cluster is still leaking go to the store and get some diapers and > take one or two and put them under the cluster to absorb the oil until > you get it fixed. > **** I agree that you should check into this. The oil pressure gauge in the dash is fed by a little tube of pressurized oil, not by some electrical signal, so there is a pressurized oil supply right behind the dash. If this were the only source of your oil leak, I would expect you to have noticed black stains on your pants or shoes by the time your dipstick shows a low reading. Since you indicate only minor possible signs of oil leakage at the dash, your gauge is not leaking very much if it is leaking at all, but any leaks here will not seal themselves up over time. Push the friction fit dash out from behind, being careful of the speedo line and oil pressure line, to assess leakage. **** > > > > Could that be oil or other leak related? > > > > Muchos gracias, > > > > R > > > > '82 300CD -- 223,100 miles > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 161K ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1228 **********************************