From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Mon Sep 29 21:52:20 2003 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Tuesday, September 30 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1232 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: [db] Re: Midwest Listfest RE: [db] tires - again [db] Climate Control Re: [db] tires - again Re: [db] Climate Control [db] 6.9's and stuff RE: [db] 6.9's and stuff Re: [db] 6.9's and stuff Re: [db] 6.9's and stuff Re: [db] 6.9's and stuff RE: [db] 6.9's and stuff Re: [db] 6.9's and stuff Re: [db] 6.9's and stuff Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:47:14 -0500 From: "Chuck Galloway" Subject: [db] Re: Midwest Listfest I'll add my thanks to Ginny, George, Jan and DanG for a great weekend. The San Filippo tour was great, the food and hospitality from Ginny was unsurpassed and the sailing on Sunday was a lot of fun. The pictures Jan posted of San Filippo were good but can't really capture all that is there. You really should try to get there. One unusual aspect of all the items - phonographs, gramaphones, steam engines everywhere, calliopes, kinetiscopes - - everything works. They operate the large ones one at a time so that there is no competing music. When they played the Star Spangled Banner on the largest Wurlitzer pipe organ, it made the hair stand up on the back of your neck! Again thanks to all. Chuck Galloway '87 300SDL 196k '92 300E 63k _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:51:09 +0000 From: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net Subject: RE: [db] tires - again the sp sport a2's are available... the tire shop suggested the new BFG Traction T/As, they come out on the 1st. he tested them on a track, compared toyos, dunlops and the bfgs, he said the new bfg's were head and shoulders above the others... john > The last time I tried to buy Dunlop D60 A2s, I was told that they no longer > made them. This was over a year ago at NTB. Perhaps I was MISINFORMED. > > Thomas E. Potter > Telephone: (713) 215-2877 > Fax: (713) 215-2551 > Mobile: (832) 794-0536 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: john [mailto:dieseljohn-at-comcast.net] > Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 11:13 PM > To: Mike Frank; diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: [db] tires - again > > > $75/tire? sounds like a bargain compared to the Michelin's... > > Dunlop Sport A2's... will check 'em out... thanx buddy... I've not > had good experiences with Dunlop before, but on your word I'll give > them serious consideration... especially since my most recent experience > with both Michelin and BFG have been less then wonderful... not that > they aren't good tires, but they changed and don't have the same > characteristics that I found good before... > > guess my old motto that everything is subject to change without notice is > still valid... (still upset with Heinz 57 for changing it's formula back in > the early '80s... 3 musketeers changed theirs, I wrote and complained and > then quit buying... they changed the formula back. ;) > > john > > At 05:35 PM 9/27/2003, Mike Frank wrote: > >John: > > > > Absolutely the best touring tire I've ever used....the new Dunlop > > Sport A2's on my 190d. Dead quiet, comfortable ride, good wet and dry > > traction, wear rating is 400. What more do you want? A bit pricey at $75 > > per, but worth every penny. > > > >Mike Frank > > > >At 03:19 PM 9/27/2003 -0700, john wrote: > >>Ok, finally have the bucks for new tires for shadowfax... simple > >> (one line) answers requested: > >> I want a tire that is: > >> 1) QUIET > >> 2) EXCELLENT RIDE > >> 3) EXCELLENT on Wet Roads > >> 4) handles well > >> 5) last a long time > > ----------------------------- > Oh well, > I'm a man, > but I can change, > if I have to, > I guess > -Red Green http://www.redgreen.com/ > ------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:08:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "R.A. Carfrae" Subject: [db] Climate Control Hi All, new member of the DBD here. Lots of great information. I'm hoping someone can tell me what's wrong with the heating system on my 1980 300d. It's got the push-button type system with the dial to select the cabin temperature. Regardless of which button I select, air blows through the center vents, not through the floor or defrosters. Also, there is no heat.... just cold, cold air. Your help is appreciated. Alex __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:24:47 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] tires - again On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 05:51:09PM +0000, dieseljohn-at-comcast.net wrote: > the sp sport a2's are available... > > the tire shop suggested the new BFG Traction T/As, they come out on the 1st. > he tested them on a track, compared toyos, dunlops and the bfgs, he said > the new bfg's were head and shoulders above the others... Well, I'd probably stick with the dunlops over the BFGs. BFGs tend to be really HARD compound tires, and while that comes in handy on a four-by in california where it never gets cold, hard compound tires kinda suck when it gets really cold. I don't know how often you get freezing temps, but if it gets REALLY cold, the BFGs will go to hell in a handbasket. BFG car tires seem to also be weaker in the sidewall than other manufacturers from what I've noticed, so if you get them, beware "snakebite" - hitting the tire against something hard enough that it comes off the bead. This happened to a friend of mine over a pothole. I don't know anything about the new Traction T/As, however. BFG Comp T/As were good tires as well, but didn't hold up as long in a heavier vehicle. Make sure your vehicle is not on the outside edge of the weight limits for the tires, or you will be replacing them under warranty at an annoying rate. The Costco in Redwood City claims to be able to get any tire I want if I'm willing to wait for him to special order them. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:43:02 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] Climate Control A couple of things may be wrong. I will outline them below. - -Vent Selection 1. Vacuum Leak 2. Defective Climate Control Unit - -Cold Air 1. Monovalve 2. Thermostat The Vent selector may be unable to switch locations due to a leak in the vacuum system. If your Vaccuum locks don't work or any other Vacuum accessories don't work this is probably your culprit. It may also be a defective climate control Unit. The cold air may be due to the monovalve which is located behind the 2nd firewall near the battery. Its easy to replace. Look at your tempature indicator though. Does it come right up to 80 degrees after about 5 minutes or does it take 10-15 minutes to slowly creep just below 80? If this is the case your thermostat may be defective. My thermostat was defective on my 300sd and I had marginal heat all winter. I replaced it and now I can fire pottery in my front seat if I chose too :) Robert Chase R.A. Carfrae wrote: > Hi All, new member of the DBD here. Lots of great > information. I'm hoping someone can tell me what's > wrong with the heating system on my 1980 300d. It's > got the push-button type system with the dial to > select the cabin temperature. Regardless of which > button I select, air blows through the center vents, > not through the floor or defrosters. Also, there is > no heat.... just cold, cold air. Your help is > appreciated. > > Alex > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:39:49 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: [db] 6.9's and stuff So, I located this 6.9 locally in the paper and I am going to go test drive it within the next couple of days. Is there anything I should look at on the car? I know that the hydropnumatic suspensions can be problematic so Ill be looking at every aspect of the suspension while I am there. It has about 150k miles on it which for the year of the car is not horrible. How long do the m-100 engines last before they have to be rebuilt? Whats the consensus on the 6.9 badges. The car is missing its 450SEL badges and just has the single 6.9 badge on the rear trunk deck lid. I have considered removing the 6.9 to thwart theft and so Im the only person that knows about the demonic powers of evil under the hood. But then again I dont usually like to "change" cars from their original form. Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:55:04 -0700 From: "Jeremy Bowne" Subject: RE: [db] 6.9's and stuff Personally, I'd stay away from any m100 engines. They are extremely nice cars, and are reliable, but when you need parts, you better be prepared to be broke. The 6.9 badge, if stolen, can easily be ordered from Mercedes, or retrieved from your local Mercedes junkyard. As for the 6.9, make sure it's a 6.9! You can tell by the VIN number, I believe it'll be 034, NOT 033... A lot of people will stick a 6.9 badge on their 450 and sell it to some unsuspecting person, without letting them know. They are identical in appearance except for the (obvious you know) hydro suspension, and bigger oil pan (on the bottom, dry sump) (and bigger motor of course) How much are you buying it for? Unless its almost perfect (which SHOULD be around 8 grand, I'd stay away.. you'll spend so much you wont even know what happened) Jeremy - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Robert Chase Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 6:40 PM To: Diesel Benz Subject: [db] 6.9's and stuff So, I located this 6.9 locally in the paper and I am going to go test drive it within the next couple of days. Is there anything I should look at on the car? I know that the hydropnumatic suspensions can be problematic so Ill be looking at every aspect of the suspension while I am there. It has about 150k miles on it which for the year of the car is not horrible. How long do the m-100 engines last before they have to be rebuilt? Whats the consensus on the 6.9 badges. The car is missing its 450SEL badges and just has the single 6.9 badge on the rear trunk deck lid. I have considered removing the 6.9 to thwart theft and so Im the only person that knows about the demonic powers of evil under the hood. But then again I dont usually like to "change" cars from their original form. Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:48:31 -0400 From: "Jim Steere" Subject: Re: [db] 6.9's and stuff > Whats the consensus on the 6.9 badges. The car is missing its 450SEL > badges and just has the single 6.9 badge on the rear trunk deck lid. I > have considered removing the 6.9 to thwart theft and so Im the only > person that knows about the demonic powers of evil under the hood. But > then again I dont usually like to "change" cars from their original form. > > Robert Chase > I had "240D" and "DIESEL" on the trunk lid of the one I had. The droolers around here didn't know the difference, but were sufficiently baffled when a supposed "diesel Benz" sucked the doorhandles offa' their car when it rolled past. Then again, I'm a little touched. If this wasn't a "diesel Benz" list....I could tell stories about a (quiet, stock-appearing and tame) Lincoln MKVII I built that made almost 500 ft/lbs to the rear wheels. Roll up the windows, turn up the tunes and the A/C, and get the women and children offa' the streets. I gotta' grow old. Nowhere in "life's rules" did I read that I gotta' grow up. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:59:13 -0400 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: Re: [db] 6.9's and stuff You're not alone. I enjoy my 1978 Volvo 262C Bertone with the '93 Mustang 5.0 drivetrain in it. People have a hard time rationalizing the exhaust note coming out of the side pipes when they look at it. Way too much fun... J.B. At 09:48 PM 9/29/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > Whats the consensus on the 6.9 badges. The car is missing its 450SEL > > badges and just has the single 6.9 badge on the rear trunk deck lid. I > > have considered removing the 6.9 to thwart theft and so Im the only > > person that knows about the demonic powers of evil under the hood. But > > then again I dont usually like to "change" cars from their original form. > > > > Robert Chase > > > >I had "240D" and "DIESEL" on the trunk lid of the one I had. The droolers >around here didn't know the difference, but were sufficiently baffled when a >supposed "diesel Benz" sucked the doorhandles offa' their car when it rolled >past. > >Then again, I'm a little touched. If this wasn't a "diesel Benz" list....I >could tell stories about a (quiet, stock-appearing and tame) Lincoln MKVII I >built that made almost 500 ft/lbs to the rear wheels. Roll up the windows, >turn up the tunes and the A/C, and get the women and children offa' the >streets. > >I gotta' grow old. Nowhere in "life's rules" did I read that I gotta' grow >up. > >Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:25:03 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] 6.9's and stuff Jeremy Bowne wrote: > Personally, I'd stay away from any m100 engines. They are extremely nice > cars, and are reliable, but when you need parts, you better be prepared > to be broke. The car is not going to be an everyday driver. I have looked at parts already and they have not scared me yet. You have to remember that I have owned late model just out of warranty Volvos. Nothing suprises you after an experience like that. An engine rebuild on the other hand would be less than pleasant experience but on the other hand I wonder how powerful a freshly rebuilt 6.9 powerplant would be :) > The 6.9 badge, if stolen, can easily be ordered from Mercedes, or > retrieved from your local Mercedes junkyard I was not really worried about the badge getting stolen just the car itself. The parts are very rare and costly and making a whole car dissappear for parts is not unheard of in this part of the country. The badge removal would be a "steal me steal me steal me" badge removal. :) > As for the 6.9, make sure it's a 6.9! > You can tell by the VIN number, I believe it'll be 034, NOT 033... > A lot of people will stick a 6.9 badge on their 450 and sell it to some > unsuspecting person, without letting them know. They are identical in > appearance except for the (obvious you know) hydro suspension, and > bigger oil pan (on the bottom, dry sump) (and bigger motor of corse) Oh She's a 6.9 alright. If not I would be able to spot it visually without the need to look at the VIN. > How much are you buying it for? > Unless its almost perfect (which SHOULD be around 8 grand, I'd stay > away.. you'll spend so much you wont even know what happened) Until keys are in my hand and im on my way home laughing like a mad man with Mozart playing on the radio the price will be an undisclosed figure :). The car is not perfect (there are no perfect 25 year old + cars BTW unless you have a show car which are not real vintage cars because they are all new parts) but the issues it seems to have are with its rather inexpensive 116 body rather than any of the 6.9 related areas. This car is very much like the 126 I drive now. The car outlived the original owner and it was left abandoned for a little while. Once you clean out all the cobwebs and get the service items taken care of its pretty simple. I'll know if im interested or not when she tells me her life's story in a 10 minute drive on the interstate. Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:43:21 -0500 From: "Sam Williams" <1sam-at-io.com> Subject: RE: [db] 6.9's and stuff Robert, The suspension isn't the main problem; it's the high parts prices. I like Jim Steere's approach to the badges. Find a 240D badge to replace the missing '450SEL.' If you leave the 6.9, that will keep everyone guessing. My old diesel is a 240D, 3.0--rebadged for Americans as 300D, Diesel. The worry about hydropneumatic suspensions has become American folklore. File it away with "Diesels are unreliable, them engines won't last 80k miles." It's the reason you won't see many MB wagons on American roads. They have both the unreliable hydro suspension (on rear) and unreliable diesel engines (in most). Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Robert Chase Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:40 PM To: Diesel Benz Subject: [db] 6.9's and stuff So, I located this 6.9 locally in the paper and I am going to go test drive it within the next couple of days. Is there anything I should look at on the car? I know that the hydropnumatic suspensions can be problematic so Ill be looking at every aspect of the suspension while I am there. It has about 150k miles on it which for the year of the car is not horrible. How long do the m-100 engines last before they have to be rebuilt? Whats the consensus on the 6.9 badges. The car is missing its 450SEL badges and just has the single 6.9 badge on the rear trunk deck lid. I have considered removing the 6.9 to thwart theft and so Im the only person that knows about the demonic powers of evil under the hood. But then again I dont usually like to "change" cars from their original form. Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:42:16 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] 6.9's and stuff On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 09:48:31PM -0400, Jim Steere wrote: > Then again, I'm a little touched. If this wasn't a "diesel Benz" list....I > could tell stories about a (quiet, stock-appearing and tame) Lincoln MKVII I > built that made almost 500 ft/lbs to the rear wheels. Roll up the windows, > turn up the tunes and the A/C, and get the women and children offa' the > streets. heheheh... my pappy said son your gonna drive me to drinkin if you don't stop drivin that hot rod lincoln :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:02:01 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] 6.9's and stuff On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 09:39:49PM -0400, Robert Chase wrote: > I located this 6.9 locally in the paper and I am going to go test drive > it within the next couple of days. Is there anything I should look at > on the car? I know that the hydropnumatic suspensions can be > problematic so Ill be looking at every aspect of the suspension while I > am there. It has about 150k miles on it which for the year of the car > is not horrible. How long do the m-100 engines last before they have to > be rebuilt? > > Whats the consensus on the 6.9 badges. The car is missing its 450SEL > badges and just has the single 6.9 badge on the rear trunk deck lid. I > have considered removing the 6.9 to thwart theft and so Im the only > person that knows about the demonic powers of evil under the hood. But > then again I dont usually like to "change" cars from their original form. >From memory (and this may be incomplete since it's been a while), this is what I looked at when looking at 6.9s: - drive by car a couple of times before calling owner, note how much sag there is in the suspension - when looking at the car, check the quality and level of oil. these cars held somewhere around 12 quarts of oil (dry sump), and the rebuild will be more expensive than a GMC 351 v6 by orders of magnitude. - transmission fluid should show evidence of recent service - peek underneath with a flashlight looking for fluids. leaky rear end could be expensive (6.9 only ratio), leaky engine or transmission could also be expensive. leaking around the suspension is BAD. - car may change height after starting, meaning the suspension had to "pump up". This could signal a leaky suspension. - there is a lever in the center of the dash which locks the suspension in high clearance mode (for snow and such), and a drive position where the suspension is allowed to do as it wants... IIRC, the high switch should cause the car to raise enough that you'd notice. (I'm kinda fuzzy on this one) - check for oil in the radiator. you do NOT want to rebuild this engine. - on the test drive, check that the car: - stops on a dime and gives you nine cents change (it really should, the brakes on this monster are amazing) - accelerates to redline smoothly. An easy way to test the revs on the engine without getting too many speeding tickets is to (after engine is warm), take it up to 5000 RPM in first gear (should be somewhere around 45-50 mph if I remember right). The rev it up test will rule - drives around smoothly. do NOT spend less than 20 minutes driving the car, make sure it comes up to speed, cruises down the freeway effortlessly, catches second on the freeway when you punch it, etc. - while driving the car, remember that the 6.9 fuel distributor costs about $1800, and that high pressure Bosch fuel injection is a royal pain in the ARSE to deal with when it's not working right. "Oh, it just needs plugs, wires, cap and a rotor" will run you about $150 for the cap alone, I don't even want to think about the m100 specific plug wires (unless you want to custom build some from moroso wire stock for a 455 buick ). IIRC, last I checked, parts, machining, and someone who actually knew how to put the bloody engine together was over $6000, and I want to say it was even over $7000. You can sure get a nice running one for that. Check Hemmings. To be honest, I think the least of your worries is the suspension, if you HAD to go through it and can do the work yourself (and there's a couple of citroen owners on this list you could probably talk into some pointers as it is the same suspension setup). If you have to pay someone to do it, it's gonna cost you a ton of money. Don't worry, the engine rebuild will be far more expensive. I think the citroen guys were saying they could rebuild the suspension in their citroens (supplying their own labor) for under $800. I'll let them correct me if I am wrong. (Note, the air suspension setup on the 6.3 is INCREDIBLY expensive to repair, probably compounded by the age of the 6.3s) All of the 6.9s I've ever seen lacked the 450SEL badge, and just had an innocuous looking 6.9 badge on the trunk. Myself, I would yank the badge to detract attention from it - it will look like every other 450SEL on the road to unsuspecting rice rockets. :) Good luck, and remember the list motto - there is nothing more expensive than an inexpensive mercedes benz. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1232 **********************************