From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Mon Nov 3 12:02:00 2003 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Sunday, November 2 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1272 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Maintenance Scedules RE: [db] Maintenance Scedules Re: [db] Maintenance Scedules Re: [db] Maintenance Scedules [db] aux water pump question '91 300d - was Rube Goldberg involved? [db] 123 half shafts Re: [db] 123 half shafts RE: [db] Maintenance Scedules Re: [db] 123 half shafts Re: [db] 123 half shafts Re: [db] Maintenance Scedules Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:38:55 -0800 From: john meister Subject: Re: [db] Maintenance Scedules I'm still not convinced that this gets all the crude out of the pan... my shop teacher would have a fit about this for sure... he encouraged us to let the pan drain for a long time... get all that sludge and gunk out of your engine... ;) john Alec Cordova wrote: >>Go with the topsider unless you enjoy doing it the caveman way. >> >>enjoy, >>Greg >> >> >> > >LOL >Old fashioned oil change methods are getting slammed today. >I used my TopSider last weekend to change the oil in my basic lawnmower >without having to dig through the bottom for a drain plug. It's just so >quick and easy, it now has me dreaming about pressure brake bleeders. > >Alec > > > - -- - ----------------------------- Oh well, I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess -Red Green http://www.redgreen.com/ - ------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:53:50 -0600 From: "Sam Williams" <1sam-at-io.com> Subject: RE: [db] Maintenance Scedules John, It's probably best to remove the oil pan whenever you do an oil change. Clean thoroughly and wipe any dirty oil from the now exposed parts of the engine. Might as well remove cam cover and clean any old oil remaining in that area, too. If you are not willing to be that thorough, then suck the oil out from the dip-stick tube. That is what MB recommends. They designed the engine for that technique. Since the oil pan drain plug is on the side and not on the bottom, there will always be some oil remaining, unless you pick the car up and shake out the last drops. :) A topsider vacuums a clean spot on bottom of oil pan at dip-stick location. You can still wait 'a long time' then vacuum again to get the few more drops that will have dripped into the pan. Sometimes easier is better. Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john meister Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 2:39 PM To: Alec Cordova Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: [db] Maintenance Scedules I'm still not convinced that this gets all the crude out of the pan... my shop teacher would have a fit about this for sure... he encouraged us to let the pan drain for a long time... get all that sludge and gunk out of your engine... ;) john Alec Cordova wrote: >>Go with the topsider unless you enjoy doing it the caveman way. >> >>enjoy, >>Greg >> >> >> > >LOL >Old fashioned oil change methods are getting slammed today. >I used my TopSider last weekend to change the oil in my basic lawnmower >without having to dig through the bottom for a drain plug. It's just so >quick and easy, it now has me dreaming about pressure brake bleeders. > >Alec > > > - -- - ----------------------------- Oh well, I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess -Red Green http://www.redgreen.com/ - ------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:31:53 -0600 From: Jon Filina Subject: Re: [db] Maintenance Scedules Sam, the voice of obscessive reason, wrote: > John, > > It's probably best to remove the oil pan whenever you do an oil change. > Clean thoroughly and wipe any dirty oil from the now exposed parts of > the engine. Might as well remove cam cover and clean any old oil > remaining in that area, too. Mista Meister! If you use the Topsider, or any vacuum extraction contraption, properly you WILL remove more oil from the engine through the dipstick tube than you would by pulling the plug. I saw this for myself with my 240D. When I had the local "quicky" oil change place do the deed, they'd pull the plug and let it drain for several minutes. When they refilled the oil, if they poured in the recommended 7 quarts (I think), the level on the dipstick would be just over the full mark. I had them put in 6 1/2 quarts normally, and had to fight with them to do that... When I got the Topsider, I refilled the engine with 6 1/2 qts. and noticed the level was lower. I added the extra 1/2 qt. and the level on the dipstick was still 1/4 down from full. Conclusion: More oil was removed with the Topsider. What about sludge and particulate matter? If you warm the engine up before sucking out the oil, the crud is in suspension and comes out with the rest of the oil. On the other hand, you are using Amsoil, so the sludge problem is non existant... How to warm the engine up and the optimal temperature of the oil has been subject to debate. If I remember correctly, Sam has tried several different scenarios and has settled on driving the car until it gets up to temp, shutting it down and starting the extraction about 1/2 later. I run the engine in the driveway, occasionally running up the RPM, untils it get up to around 70-80c. As long as the oil filter cannister is not hot when I put my hand on it, I fire up the Topsider. If the oil is too hot, the plastic tubing will collapse. The only difference between the performance of the Topsider and the machine MB uses, from what I can tell, is the amount of suction. Watching the MB machine in operation, it appears that they could actually suck the chrome off of the rear bumper, through the dipstick tube, which may be the reason they modified those parts.... The only real reason for pulling the drain plug is so that you can see if there are any oil leaks under the engine. Crawl under there and look then suck the oil out of the dipstick! If you really want to be obscessive, do as Sam mentioned - pull the pan, clean it, etc. For the rest of us, suck it up... Jon '84 300SD 169,451 mi. "Bruno" A Topsider and E-Code headlight fan! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 16:53:38 -0800 From: john meister Subject: Re: [db] Maintenance Scedules I'm still having a hard time understanding how you're going to get more stuff out by drawing it through a straw topside as opposed to letting it come out the drain plug... and yes, the drain plug is on the side, but if you notice, it's at the bottom of the pan... ;) besides, what does a "topsider" cost? and what happens if it self destructs in the tube like happened to one of our own recently? ;) john Jon Filina wrote: > Sam, the voice of obscessive reason, wrote: > >> John, >> >> It's probably best to remove the oil pan whenever you do an oil change. >> Clean thoroughly and wipe any dirty oil from the now exposed parts of >> the engine. Might as well remove cam cover and clean any old oil >> remaining in that area, too. > > > Mista Meister! - -- - ----------------------------- Oh well, I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess -Red Green http://www.redgreen.com/ - ------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:45:40 -0800 From: john meister Subject: [db] aux water pump question '91 300d - was Rube Goldberg involved? When sitting at an idle in traffic or in a parking lot I've noticed that my heater does not produce heat, a/c works fine when sitting... Soon as I start driving warm air and normal operation resumes. Hazen suggested that my auxillary water pump might be the problem. I remember replacing this on my '83 300SD, is it in the same place on the '91 300d 2.5l TD? (if so that may mean removing the airflilter box... oh happy joy joy... ;) If there really is an aux water pump on this I'd guess that Rube Goldberg was included on the 124 series design team after all.... :) john - ------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 00:52:34 -0500 From: Robert Chase Subject: [db] 123 half shafts So, I got suckered into helping my brother fix the axles on his 123. We got the old axle out with no problems but for one reason or another cant get the new axle close enough to the hub bolt for us to finish the job. Any ideas? My thoughts are the positioning of the suspension might have somethign to do with this. Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:55:47 -0800 From: john meister Subject: Re: [db] 123 half shafts are both axles the same length? if they are then you might see if a come-a-long might be attached and used to bring the suspension back in line to mate up... or some other mechanical means of getting things to line up, like a large breaker bar... not sure why your suspension would shift just pulling the axle though... just how big was the hammer that you used? :) john Robert Chase wrote: > So, > > I got suckered into helping my brother fix the axles on his 123. We > got the old axle out with no problems but for one reason or another > cant get the new axle close enough to the hub bolt for us to finish > the job. Any ideas? My thoughts are the positioning of the > suspension might have somethign to do with this. > > Robert Chase > - -- - ----------------------------- Oh well, I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess -Red Green http://www.redgreen.com/ - ------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 00:31:17 -0600 From: "Sam Williams" <1sam-at-io.com> Subject: RE: [db] Maintenance Scedules John, Topsiders are $50 or less (unless you buy from more prestigious suppliers). You could also get an inexpensive wet vac with 2 gal or greater capacity and make an adapter to fit the dipstick tube. That's roughly the same idea as the setup at MB service centers. A topsider is more elegant, really designed for boats, where plugging in an electric vacuum cleaner is not always practical. Diesel oil will make a real mess of a shop vac; you probably won't want to use it for sawdust again. MB dipstick tubes reach very close to bottom of sump, gravity and air flow work together to remove most oil in the pan. It really is more effective than draining from a plug on the side of the pan. I believe someone mentioned that it's easier, too. Unless you are several years late in changing oil, the chance of excessive sludge with modern oils is slight. Removing however much comes out from the drain hole, without waiting hours for the last drip, or sucking what ever comes up through the dipstick tube is more than sufficient. Short of completely disassembling the engine, you'll never get much more old oil out. Some will always remain. Your engine will be thrilled to get almost two gallons of clean oil and a new filter, even if there is a half a pint of dirty oil left. Life is too short to spend much time with hot diesel oil running down your arm. Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john meister Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 6:54 PM To: Jon Filina Cc: Sam Williams; 'Alec Cordova'; diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: [db] Maintenance Scedules I'm still having a hard time understanding how you're going to get more stuff out by drawing it through a straw topside as opposed to letting it come out the drain plug... and yes, the drain plug is on the side, but if you notice, it's at the bottom of the pan... ;) besides, what does a "topsider" cost? and what happens if it self destructs in the tube like happened to one of our own recently? ;) john Jon Filina wrote: > Sam, the voice of obscessive reason, wrote: > >> John, >> >> It's probably best to remove the oil pan whenever you do an oil change. >> Clean thoroughly and wipe any dirty oil from the now exposed parts of >> the engine. Might as well remove cam cover and clean any old oil >> remaining in that area, too. > > > Mista Meister! - -- - ----------------------------- Oh well, I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess -Red Green http://www.redgreen.com/ - ------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 03:36:00 -0500 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] 123 half shafts John, He only wanted to do one side so we sort of have the "non optimal" condition of having a 20 year old half shaft on the other side. Everything lines up it just seems like the new axle is "short" which may be the case since its a cheapie $99 rebuilt job. I am considering putting the wheel back on and putting the full weight of the car back onto the suspension and see if it "flattens" the relationship between the axle and the differential so that we can start the hub bolt. Robert Chase john meister wrote: > are both axles the same length? > > if they are then you might see if a come-a-long might be attached and > used to bring the > suspension back in line to mate up... or some other mechanical means of > getting things > to line up, like a large breaker bar... > not sure why your suspension would shift just pulling the axle > though... just > how big was the hammer that you used? :) > > john > > Robert Chase wrote: > >> So, >> >> I got suckered into helping my brother fix the axles on his 123. We >> got the old axle out with no problems but for one reason or another >> cant get the new axle close enough to the hub bolt for us to finish >> the job. Any ideas? My thoughts are the positioning of the >> suspension might have somethign to do with this. >> >> Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 03:43:56 -0500 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] 123 half shafts Hmmm, Gotta love the internet. I did a search and found this excerpt from John's website. Does anybody have the information on the home made half shaft puller? It sounds like I am missing a critical tool. On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, S.D.Byers wrote: > > > If anybody needs to replace the rear half-shaft on their 123 chassis, > and you don't have the special Mercedes puller tool to drag it into the > hub, let me know and I can give you a recipe for a replacement tool made > out of a few dollars worth of pipe fittings. > > SDB Robert Chase john meister wrote: > are both axles the same length? > > if they are then you might see if a come-a-long might be attached and > used to bring the > suspension back in line to mate up... or some other mechanical means of > getting things > to line up, like a large breaker bar... > not sure why your suspension would shift just pulling the axle > though... just > how big was the hammer that you used? :) > > john > > Robert Chase wrote: > >> So, >> >> I got suckered into helping my brother fix the axles on his 123. We >> got the old axle out with no problems but for one reason or another >> cant get the new axle close enough to the hub bolt for us to finish >> the job. Any ideas? My thoughts are the positioning of the >> suspension might have somethign to do with this. >> >> Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 04:46:03 -0600 From: Jon Filina Subject: Re: [db] Maintenance Scedules John "The Doubting One" wrote: > I'm still having a hard time understanding how you're going to get more > stuff out > by drawing it through a straw topside as opposed to letting it come out > the drain plug... > and yes, the drain plug is on the side, but if you notice, it's at the > bottom of the pan... ;) You're wearing me out, son... ;-) This is starting to sound like the discussions between my fellow "gassers" and I when they want to know why I'm such a dieselhead. It's also similar to the Winders weinies questions as to why I use Linux... I'm starting to feel like Don Quixote... ;-) Back before I got my topsider, I found a message on the old MB email list archives from, I believe, George Murphy. George is active with the MB club and you'll see him mentioned in the Star. Whoever it was, though, did a test with the Topsider. He topped off the oil on an older MB diesel engine so that it showed full. Then he drained it from the plug and measured the amount of oil that came out. He refilled, made sure the dipstick showed full, and extracted it with a Topsider. The amount he extracted measured about a cup more, from what I remember. Why the difference? As Tim Allen would say: "More Power!!" A push broom will clean up the garage floor, but a shop vac will do it better... > besides, what does a "topsider" cost? As Sam said, around $50. If you don't mind crawling under the car, having bits of dirt fall into your eyes, having to put your body in strange contortionist positions to remove the drain plug, dropping said plug in the hot oil, burning your hand retrieving it, having to get out from under the car and back under when all the oil is drained, cleaning off the oil plug and reinstalling it then the Topsider may not be for you. In addition, after you are done changing the oil, if you are not bothered by being stopped by the old lady as you enter the house to get cleaned up and she demands that you get "nekkid", in a tone of voice quite different from your beginning days of being married, because you are filthy from crawling around under the car, and you have to endure her yelling from the laundry room about how she'll never get those nasty oil stains out of your clothes while you spend quite a bit of time at the bathroom sink, in your skivvies, getting the diesel oil washed off your skin and out from under your fingernails, then the Topsider may not be for you.... BTDT.... ;-) I believe that either oil change method is sufficient, but appreciate the ease of using the Topsider and having to do minimal cleanup. My only complaint with the Topsider is it's capacity and what happens if it gets full. My '84 SD takes a full 8 quarts of oil when I change it. If I don't make sure I've drained the Topsider completely, the oil gets past the seals and makes a mess. I have one pair of old black pants I wear when I change the oil for this reason... I have been considering using an electric pump that runs off of house current. Does anyone have any recommendations? The Topsider can is of sufficient capacity, but it really should be about a gallon larger due to the "layer" of vacuum that is required. An electric pump eliminates that additional volume requirement. It is perfectly adequate for a 240D, but the SD has a bigger sump. > and what happens if it self destructs in the tube like happened to one > of our own recently? ;) If I remember correctly, the vehicle in question was American iron such as a Chevy van. I suspect the oil was way too hot when he started the extraction. I had one occasion on my SD where the tubing collapsed due to the oil being too hot. In that case, the temp gauge showed 80c. I squeezed the tube in the opposite direction and the oil continued to drain. The collapse did not result in any permanent damage to the tubing. If you really want to make sure all the sludge and particulate matter is in suspension when you change the oil, cut a length of copper tubing long enough to go from the top of the dipstick tube to the bottom of the pan (cut the end at about a 30 degree angle) and mate it to the surgical tubing. Run the engine up to full operating temperature by driving it for 15 minutes or so, and then suck the oil out. You may have to squeeze the rubber tubing to keep the oil flowing, but you won't have any problems with the rubber getting stuck in the dipstick tube. Or, don't let the engine temperature get over 80c before firing up the Topsider. That's always worked for me... If you want any more testimonials, ask Sam or Alec. They'll set you straight much more eloquently than I can... Jon '84 300SD 169,451 mi. A Topsider weinie with a turbo drain leak... ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1272 **********************************