From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Mon Jan 12 15:13:52 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Monday, January 12 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1339 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] Cold start questions RE: [db] Cold start questions RE: [db] Cold start questions RE: [db] Cold start questions RE: [db] Cold start questions Re: [db] Tensioner Damper - Rattling RE: [db] Tensioner Damper - Rattling Re: [db] Tensioner Damper - Rattling RE: [db] Tensioner Damper - Rattling Re: [db] A couple questions RE: [db] Cold start questions Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:59:54 -0500 From: "Aimino, Michael" Subject: RE: [db] Cold start questions My '79 300D has been starting fine for me in the cold. The temps here in PA have been between zero and 10 F, and it starts on the first try, although she sounds like she's going to toss a rod while she warms up. You might want to check your glow plugs. Also, how old is your battery? The cold will weaken an older battery. Is your car cranking over alright and not firing? We've been having problems here with some fuel gelling - some stations have fuel that hasn't been properly winterized. - -----Original Message----- From: J.B. Hebert [mailto:jhebert-at-wrxtra.com] Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:46 AM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net; dieseltech-at-mbz.org; diesel-at-mbz.org Subject: [db] Cold start questions With all the talk of cold starts going around, I figured I'd ask a question about my '82 300CD. I leave in the Northeast and we had a couple days in the below 0 (F) range. I have recently moved to an apartment where I'm unable to plug in my block heater. After leaving the car overnight, I am unable to start it if the temp is below 0. Should I be able to, or am I expecting too much? The car always starts fine in if the temps are in the teens or higher. Honestly, I can't remember seeing temps this cold for a long time, and my MB certainly hasn't since I've owned it, so I really don't have anything to compare to. Bottom line - should an OM617 start without assistance in cold-soaked negative numbers, or am I expecting too much? With The Weather Channel expecting record lows (-18) at the end of the week, I need to find someplace to plug in. Thanks. J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:57:32 -0600 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: [db] Cold start questions An OM617 should be able to start at temperatures that low, but that is a lot of work for the motor, so you need to help it as much as possible. There is a fairly standard list of things to help: Block heater - if you have the factory one, as little as 2 or 3 hours plugged in makes a tremendous difference, but you have already ruled this one out. Winter-stabilized diesel - Stuff in the fuel can basically become little globs of wax at really cold temps. Most decent, high-turnover gas stations will be dispensing winterized diesel promptly, with the possible exception of a sudden early cold snap or an unexpected late cold snap. Many cheap additives are available to help. High volume truck stops are a good source for these. Battery - be sure it still has a good amount of life left in it, and that all connections are clean and sound. Trying to crank over more than 20 to 1 compression demands a healthy dose of power. This is why the "correct" battery is so physically big. Glow plug system - if this isn't working well, you probably won't get started without a block heater. The system has very basic self-diagnostic capability - almost any real problem will cause the dash light not to come on. Valves - the non-self-adjusting valves are supposed to be adjusted every 15,000 miles. These can make affect cold starts. If it's been over 30 or 40K, they could have a big affect on cold starts. Synthetic motor oil - the least-debated benefit of synthetic motor oil is that it helps very cold starts. No prep work is required for switching to synthetic, just get some diesel-rated stuff and a new filter. Mobil 1 is a fairly safe choice, or check www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html for the MB approval list. While I currently don't have a diesel, and it never gets that cold in central Texas, ever, possibly in all of recorded history, I would say the synthetic oil may be your magic wand for this week, assuming none of the other items are too grossly out of whack. Good luck, Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 166K > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of J.B. Hebert > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 9:46 AM > To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net; dieseltech-at-mbz.org; diesel-at-mbz.org > Subject: [db] Cold start questions > > > With all the talk of cold starts going around, I figured I'd ask > a question > about my '82 300CD. I leave in the Northeast and we had a couple days in > the below 0 (F) range. I have recently moved to an apartment where I'm > unable to plug in my block heater. After leaving the car overnight, I am > unable to start it if the temp is below 0. Should I be able to, or am I > expecting too much? The car always starts fine in if the temps > are in the > teens or higher. Honestly, I can't remember seeing temps this cold for a > long time, and my MB certainly hasn't since I've owned it, so I really > don't have anything to compare to. Bottom line - should an OM617 start > without assistance in cold-soaked negative numbers, or am I expecting too > much? With The Weather Channel expecting record lows (-18) at the end of > the week, I need to find someplace to plug in. > > Thanks. > > J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:59:30 -0500 From: "Aimino, Michael" Subject: RE: [db] Cold start questions You might want to check the glowplug resistance at the terminal end at the controller. Can't remember what the reading should be off the top of my head - it's very low, I remember that. My MB maintenance CD is at home, I can email you the numbers if you don't have them. If the battery is good, she's cranking over at a nice clip, the glow plugs are good, and the fuel is flowing freely, that pretty much leaves compression as a culprit. If that's the case, then you're pretty much stuck with plugging her in at night. A few years back, I was driving a diesel Rabbit and living in a apartment. I ran an extension cord out from my room, over the balcony, and down to the parking lot. I was pretty nervous about my cord taking a walk, but it never did. When it's that cold out, I guess the petty thieves find other things to do. - -----Original Message----- From: J.B. Hebert [mailto:jhebert-at-wrxtra.com] Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:31 AM To: Aimino, Michael Subject: RE: [db] Cold start questions My battery is new (1000 CA, 850 CCA) and my glow plug indicator appears normal. Is it possible to have bad glowplugs with the indicator still working? The car cranks over as well as can be expected when it's really cold. It wants to catch, but it never does. I have been running anti-gel in the fuel, but I suppose that could still be an issue. Thanks, J.B. At 10:59 AM 1/12/2004 -0500, you wrote: >My '79 300D has been starting fine for me in the cold. The temps here >in PA have been between zero and 10 F, and it starts on the first try, >although she sounds like she's going to toss a rod while she warms up. > >You might want to check your glow plugs. Also, how old is your battery? >The cold will weaken an older battery. Is your car cranking over >alright and not firing? We've been having problems here with some fuel >gelling - some stations have fuel that hasn't been properly winterized. > >-----Original Message----- >From: J.B. Hebert [mailto:jhebert-at-wrxtra.com] >Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:46 AM >To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net; dieseltech-at-mbz.org; diesel-at-mbz.org >Subject: [db] Cold start questions > > >With all the talk of cold starts going around, I figured I'd ask a >question about my '82 300CD. I leave in the Northeast and we had a >couple days in >the below 0 (F) range. I have recently moved to an apartment where I'm >unable to plug in my block heater. After leaving the car overnight, I >am >unable to start it if the temp is below 0. Should I be able to, or am I > >expecting too much? The car always starts fine in if the temps are in >the teens or higher. Honestly, I can't remember seeing temps this cold >for a >long time, and my MB certainly hasn't since I've owned it, so I really >don't have anything to compare to. Bottom line - should an OM617 start >without assistance in cold-soaked negative numbers, or am I expecting >too >much? With The Weather Channel expecting record lows (-18) at the end >of >the week, I need to find someplace to plug in. > >Thanks. > >J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:26:05 -0600 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: [db] Cold start questions Aren't the glow plugs suppoed to read about 0.6 ohms when healthy? Valves out of adjustment can affect compression. Synthetic oil can increase the cranking speed. Alec > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Aimino, Michael > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:00 AM > To: J.B. Hebert > Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: RE: [db] Cold start questions > > > You might want to check the glowplug resistance at the terminal end at > the controller. Can't remember what the reading should be off the top of > my head - it's very low, I remember that. My MB maintenance CD is at > home, I can email you the numbers if you don't have them. > > If the battery is good, she's cranking over at a nice clip, the glow > plugs are good, and the fuel is flowing freely, that pretty much leaves > compression as a culprit. If that's the case, then you're pretty much > stuck with plugging her in at night. A few years back, I was driving a > diesel Rabbit and living in a apartment. I ran an extension cord out > from my room, over the balcony, and down to the parking lot. I was > pretty nervous about my cord taking a walk, but it never did. When it's > that cold out, I guess the petty thieves find other things to do. > > -----Original Message----- > From: J.B. Hebert [mailto:jhebert-at-wrxtra.com] > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:31 AM > To: Aimino, Michael > Subject: RE: [db] Cold start questions > > > My battery is new (1000 CA, 850 CCA) and my glow plug indicator appears > normal. Is it possible to have bad glowplugs with the indicator still > working? The car cranks over as well as can be expected when it's > really > cold. It wants to catch, but it never does. I have been running > anti-gel > in the fuel, but I suppose that could still be an issue. > > Thanks, > > J.B. > > At 10:59 AM 1/12/2004 -0500, you wrote: > >My '79 300D has been starting fine for me in the cold. The temps here > >in PA have been between zero and 10 F, and it starts on the first try, > >although she sounds like she's going to toss a rod while she warms up. > > > >You might want to check your glow plugs. Also, how old is your battery? > > >The cold will weaken an older battery. Is your car cranking over > >alright and not firing? We've been having problems here with some fuel > >gelling - some stations have fuel that hasn't been properly winterized. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: J.B. Hebert [mailto:jhebert-at-wrxtra.com] > >Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:46 AM > >To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net; dieseltech-at-mbz.org; diesel-at-mbz.org > >Subject: [db] Cold start questions > > > > > >With all the talk of cold starts going around, I figured I'd ask a > >question about my '82 300CD. I leave in the Northeast and we had a > >couple days in > >the below 0 (F) range. I have recently moved to an apartment where I'm > >unable to plug in my block heater. After leaving the car overnight, I > >am > >unable to start it if the temp is below 0. Should I be able to, or am > I > > > >expecting too much? The car always starts fine in if the temps are in > >the teens or higher. Honestly, I can't remember seeing temps this cold > > >for a > >long time, and my MB certainly hasn't since I've owned it, so I really > >don't have anything to compare to. Bottom line - should an OM617 start > >without assistance in cold-soaked negative numbers, or am I expecting > >too > >much? With The Weather Channel expecting record lows (-18) at the end > >of > >the week, I need to find someplace to plug in. > > > >Thanks. > > > >J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:08:57 -0500 From: "J.B. Hebert" Subject: RE: [db] Cold start questions I switched to M-1 15-50 this weekend but it didn't seem to help. Left overnight in -2 degree weather. Crank speed is slightly improved, but not enough to start. I hadn't bothered to check the glow plugs yet because the indicator always comes on and stays on for the amount of time indicated in the service manual based on ambient temp. However, I suppose that could be an issue. I'll check resistance tonight when I get home. And maybe look for a really long, heavy-duty extension cord... J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:26:14 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] Tensioner Damper - Rattling On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 05:55:07PM -0500, Black, Waylon wrote: > Have my eye on a 2.5 that I may try to get the whole engine. ;) Beware, from experience I've had with my 190D, I don't believe that the five speeds are the same transmission between the 2.2 and 2.5. The one that came out of my car was a little smaller, and seemed much weaker than the one that went in. The one that went in required mounts to be swapped, so I don't believe that it was supposed to go behind a 2.2, but it bolted up and has worked fine. The jumps between gears are also a little bigger than the old transmission, which would fit with the slightly wider powerband of the 2.5. I don't know that I'd trust a 2.2 manual behind an OM602 - I'd expect the additional torque of the extra cylinder and displacement, etc, to be a bit of a burden on an already seemingly marginal transmission. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:48:28 -0500 From: "Black, Waylon" Subject: RE: [db] Tensioner Damper - Rattling Thanks for stealing my thunder. ;) Waylon Black Little Elm, Texas - -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Pekarek [mailto:kevin-at-mordred.punk.net] Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 2:26 PM To: Black, Waylon Cc: 'diesel-benz-at-digest.net' Subject: Re: [db] Tensioner Damper - Rattling On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 05:55:07PM -0500, Black, Waylon wrote: > Have my eye on a 2.5 that I may try to get the whole engine. ;) Beware, from experience I've had with my 190D, I don't believe that the five speeds are the same transmission between the 2.2 and 2.5. The one that came out of my car was a little smaller, and seemed much weaker than the one that went in. The one that went in required mounts to be swapped, so I don't believe that it was supposed to go behind a 2.2, but it bolted up and has worked fine. The jumps between gears are also a little bigger than the old transmission, which would fit with the slightly wider powerband of the 2.5. I don't know that I'd trust a 2.2 manual behind an OM602 - I'd expect the additional torque of the extra cylinder and displacement, etc, to be a bit of a burden on an already seemingly marginal transmission. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:56:33 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] Tensioner Damper - Rattling On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 03:48:28PM -0500, Black, Waylon wrote: > Thanks for stealing my thunder. ;) Sorry, that wasn't quite my intention. Besides, I figured you'd reply that it was a hundred buck car, so who cares if you lunch the trans? You can get one from aurora in washington for $375, at least that's what I did :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:06:52 -0500 From: "Black, Waylon" Subject: RE: [db] Tensioner Damper - Rattling LOL! Can Academy was nuts - only diesel was a 81 DATSUN Maxima. Ragged out, 200K+ miles brought $300. Well it was good while it lasted(sigh). Waylon Black Little Elm, Texas - -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Pekarek [mailto:kevin-at-mordred.punk.net] Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 2:57 PM To: Black, Waylon Cc: 'diesel-benz-at-digest.net' Subject: Re: [db] Tensioner Damper - Rattling On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 03:48:28PM -0500, Black, Waylon wrote: > Thanks for stealing my thunder. ;) Sorry, that wasn't quite my intention. Besides, I figured you'd reply that it was a hundred buck car, so who cares if you lunch the trans? You can get one from aurora in washington for $375, at least that's what I did :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:27:31 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] A couple questions On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 09:55:31AM -0500, J.B. Hebert wrote: > A couple questions this chilly morn': > > 1) How many ground straps are there between the chassis and the motor on a > 1982 300CD, and where are they located? Most likely just one, from the transmission to the frame, probably from a bellhousing bolt. > 2) What is the diameter of the clutch disk on a 240/300D with a manual > transmission? I don't know that they're the same. A 240D clutch is roughly 8.5 inches, and a the clutch used behind a turbo OM617 in europe (apparently, there was a 300D turbo five speed option over there in a w123) was roughly 9.5 inches. I don't know if the european 240D 3.0 used the same clutch as the 616 or the turbo 617. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:41:47 -0500 From: "Steve Morelen" Subject: RE: [db] Cold start questions I agree with the comments from everyone else regarding the ability of one of these engines to start at 0 deg F. If you can't fix the problem easily (i.e., glow plugs or block heater) and the battery and connections are in excellent shape, you might experiment with glowing the engine twice before attempting to crank the starter motor. You might even get away with simply allowing the plugs to work for their full duration on the the first glow attempt. I don't think that the glow plugs go off when the dash indicator extinguishes. On my '84 300D, I can hear a relay disengaging a fair time after the dash glowplug indicator has gone out (when I turn the key to glow position and don't start the engine). Good Luck- Steve Morelen >From: "J.B. Hebert" >To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net,dieseltech-at-mbz.org,diesel-at-mbz.org >Subject: [db] Cold start questions >Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:45:55 -0500 > >With all the talk of cold starts going around, I figured I'd ask a question >about my '82 300CD. I leave in the Northeast and we had a couple days in >the below 0 (F) range. I have recently moved to an apartment where I'm >unable to plug in my block heater. After leaving the car overnight, I am >unable to start it if the temp is below 0. Should I be able to, or am I >expecting too much? The car always starts fine in if the temps are in the >teens or higher. Honestly, I can't remember seeing temps this cold for a >long time, and my MB certainly hasn't since I've owned it, so I really >don't have anything to compare to. Bottom line - should an OM617 start >without assistance in cold-soaked negative numbers, or am I expecting too >much? With The Weather Channel expecting record lows (-18) at the end of >the week, I need to find someplace to plug in. > >Thanks. > >J.B. _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ^Qnet deals ^W comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1339 **********************************