From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Sat Feb 21 10:30:05 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Saturday, February 21 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1370 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: [db] found a salesman that wanted to ride in the cars yesterday [db] Last time before purchase^×dieselhead opinion poll RE: [db] Last time before purchasedieselhead opinion poll Re: [db] Last time before =?windows-1252?Q?purchase=97dieselhead?= =?windows-1252?Q?_opinion_poll?= Re: [db] Last time before purchasedieselhead opinion poll Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:46:14 -0600 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: [db] found a salesman that wanted to ride in the cars yesterday In a simple attempt to kill time and avoid rush hour, I stopped by the local MB dealer yesterday afternoon. I guess it was a slow day for them. One of the salesman glommed onto me almost as an excuse for him to get to ride and drive some more. What a terrible shame. ;-) We took a short trip in a StarMarked '02 Silver Arrow edition R129 SL500 with under 7,000 miles, but the real fun was a good stint in a brand new '03 R230 SL500. The sales rep had me turn onto a wide side street where we did a little bit of solid stomping on the gas, then the brake, then there was a nice 90 degree right turn that he insisted I take at speed. Who was I to disregard his instructions? ;-) So in addition to being one of the best looking Benzes in a long time IMHO, the new SL is a sweet, sweet machine. If I won a couple of lotto drawings, I believe I would find myself back in one of those, giggling my ass off. Why, oh why do I have to love Benzes so much and not be part of an Old Money family? The sales rep does get points for letting me into a couple of SLs even though I didn't look too rich yesterday, for letting the cars start the sales pitch, and for trying to talk numbers with me like I actually had that kind of green available. Well, I did park my CE in a visible spot just far enough away that you couldn't see her blemishes, and I didn't happen to mention to the salesman that I am currently "between jobs." It really is a shame that my family and I have had so much trouble with the service department at MB of Austin (nee, Continental Cars), since their sales and parts groups are actually quite nice. Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 167K ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:55:18 -0500 From: Jason R Bassett Subject: [db] Last time before purchase^×dieselhead opinion poll OK, guys^Wthis is the last check before I buy the thing, and at this point I am almost planning to. I want as many (knowledgeable) opinions as I can get by Sunday night, so I can make the best decision. Everything except the details is just as best as I can see or find out Car Details 1981 Mercedes 240D, 2.4L NA Diesel, Automatic Transmission, ~237,750 miles, $1000 Car's Known History Has a previous owner and consignment seller who both like it Hit a deer and has been restored Car's Apparent Positives Engine and transmission both seem perfectly sound and dependable Vehicle is recommended for WVO conversion Starts just as easily as a gasoline engine in reasonable weather Interior is clean and in fair shape Drives/handles perfectly No perceptible oil/transmission fluid/steering/antifreeze leaks Engine did not even consider overheating when I drove it for 45 mins in mild weather Car's Possible Issues Car has hit a deer. I am told that this can mess it up beyond what a backyard mechanic can fix, but it has repaired so well that I had no idea that it had been hit, and probably never would have if the seller had not told me so. If the car had been structurally damaged I would expect it to have handling quirks, and I don't see this. I cannot find anything wrong with the car on this account. Is there something more I should look for? I do not want to pay to have someone else inspect the car; I would sooner take a risk, as long as it is not a high risk. The air filter and oil are dirty. I know that the oil gets dirty very quickly, but this seems a bit dirtier than I would expect, even from a diesel. To me, the dirty air filter suggests the possibility of neglect, BUT I happen to know that the air filter on my current (gas) car is very dirty, but I have changed the oil very consistently, so the dirty air filter is not necessarily a red flag. How big a deal is it on one of these engines if you let the oil go a bit long? Car started very hard when cold. I suspect weak glow plugs, because the engine was spinning briskly. One/two cylinder(s) apparently caught immediately, because it loped while cranking. After several more glow/crank sessions, I did coax it to start, at which point it ran quite acceptably. I know glow plugs are inexpensive, but I am a bit worried about how hard they may be to replace. How much do you have to tear into that 2.4L engine to change the glow plugs? I can see them.....can I unscrew them with a deepwell socket? Anyhow, there should be some time left before I have to worry about it, since the weather is warming up. Fuel injector return lines leak. As far as I understand, fixing this is a $2.99 type job and nothing to worry about, but can this condition cause damage over time? I may need to replace the timing chain. I don't know if it has ever been done, and I know that for it to break is fatal, and many Volkswagen diesels have died this way. However, they use a belt, not a chain; does the chain even have to be replaced with normal use? How do I know if it needs to be replaced or not? I live in a mountainous area, and as a result, this car must be driven very heavy-footedly sometimes. Will this noticeably shorten the engine life? In my test drive, I found myself nearly flooring the accelerator as a matter of course for accelerating and (sometimes) hill-climbing. Is this damaging to the engine? Someone said that they were made expecting that they would get lead-footed drivers, and the transmission handles it well, although it did let it wind up a bit high (I thought) for a diesel. Is any of this to worry about, or should I just use a lead foot and go to grandma's? The car is geared fairly low (predictably) and 55MPH (the speed limit where I live) finds the engine wound up pretty high (considering I'm used to overdrive transmissions) and I am curious as to whether or not I can safely do 70MPH where the speed limit permits me to do so. I routinely travel to ther states where the speed limit is 70MPH, and my travel times are all based on full speed ahead. Would I need to slow down, or is 70 safe for long distances? I routinely travel long distances, and I would hate to get 700 miles from home and have it decide it wants TLC. Is this car at this age dependable enough to travel this kind of distances in? Is it likely to die on me? Overheat? Break the steering? Tell me about the "quirks of old age" that this vehicle is likely to have. For only $1000, I think this is a good buy, but if you think otherwise, please tell me so and SPECIFICALLY WHY. I am looking for a mass response if I can get it, so even if you think someone else has already made your point, please simply email and tell me that you agree with him. I await the dieselhead digest. Thanks for being so helpful. Jason ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:45:03 -0600 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: [db] Last time before purchasedieselhead opinion poll > For only $1000, I think this is a good buy, but if you think otherwise, > please tell me so and SPECIFICALLY WHY. I am looking for a mass response > if I can get it, so even if you think someone else has already made your > point, please simply email and tell me that you agree with him. I await > the dieselhead digest. Thanks for being so helpful. > > Jason > Even though I am currently diesel-less, I still consider myself to be one of the dieselheads around here. This reply kept getting longer. I apologize in advance. Especially considering that you hope to run WVO, I think this one sounds like a winner. This series of MB is fairly stout, with comfortingly thick metal body panels. It is possible that the deer incident did not cause tremendous damage, and the repairs work that has been done is perfectly satisfactory. One would suspect that a deer incident, if it did in fact cause tremendous damage, would present itself in steering and front suspension issues. Additionally, the rubber bits in the front suspension do wear out over time. If the tires have spent at least 5 or 10 thousand miles on this car, and if they look evenly worn, that speaks well on both the deer and the suspension rubber fronts. Remember that the steering geometry WILL wear down the edges of the front tires (turn the wheels all the way to one side and look at them lean to figure this out), but as long as the inner and outer edges pretty much match, and there is no scalloping or other common treadwear signs of alignment/suspension problems, you're doing great. The oil gets soot-black almost instantly. Even when you check the fill level at the end of an oil change, the brief time you run the motor shows that there is always some stuff left in the oil passages. That first check of the dipstick almost always looks darker than the oil you poured in. With mostly highway driving, I think the manual listed something like 7,500 miles as the oil change interval, not the 3,000 we have all been "trained" for. While 3 to 5 thousand is a good interval for most non-synthetic oils, I think the single most important contributor to long engine life on these is to not forget the oil. Change it AT LEAST as often as the manual states, and use a diesel-rated oil. These will have a 2-letter API Spec beginning with C for Compression ignition, not just the S for Spark ignition. Among non-synthetics, Chevron Delo 400 and Shell Rotella T are among the best choices, both approved by MB. The air filter often has to deal with a little extra oil coming through that hose at the top of the valve cover. The gradual internal engine wear makes that always get very, very gradually worse. Replacing that hose from the valve cover to the air cleaner helps a bunch. (This assumes the 240 has that hose. I know my 85 300D had it, but I don't specifically remember if my 80 240D did.) Even if the air filter is a little clogged, it's a huge thing, so no damage has been caused. Just get a new filter when you buy that new oil hose. Buy your filters and parts from Rusty or Randy (buymbparts.com, epsparts.com, etc.) rather than most local McParts stores, especially the oil filters. Pricing is great, and you get correctly built parts. Maintenance on these cars is a joy. Everything can be reached, and many design choices seem to have been made with the future repairer in mind. If you replace the glow plugs, get Beru brand (Rusty would have those, too), and try to find a way to "ream out" the chamber that the glow plugs stick in to. Carbon builds up in there, and if it reaches all the way to a plug the glow plug can wear out prematurely. The fuel lines between the injectors are indeed a cheap and easy fix. Be sure to get the appropriate line and buy a real end plug. Even if you get this from your local MB dealer, it's cheap. If they're leaking now, you should replace them soon, but I think we've all lived with leaky ones for a while, telling ourselves that diesel fuel leaks are less likely to burst into flames than gasoline leaks would be. A possible contributor to the hard starting is valve adjustment. Every 15,000 miles, you basically are supposed to adjust the free play between the camshaft and the tops of the valves. It needs a couple of nice wrenches, but it is otherwise fairly easy to perform, and only needs a new valve cover gasket as far as parts. While adjusting the valves, whether you do it yourself or pay someone else, there are documented procedures to measure how much the timing chain has stretched. It adds only minutes to the valve adjustment procedure, and no additional parts must be purchased. If the chain has not stretched more than 5 or 6 degrees (apparently mostly influenced by oil quality and oil change history) you can continue on your merry way with the original chain. This is supposed to be a very accurate way to decide whether or not to replace the chain. Drive this motor and transmission HARD. Keep your foot in it. Even wound up to all of its 4500 or 5000rpm max, this thing makes maybe 70hp and probably 100 or so lb-ft of torque. Certainly well within what the transmission can handle. Also, more time at higher revs and/or with lots of accelerator help prevent, and even reduce, any internal carbon buildup in the motor, intake manifold, injectors, etc. The motor truly runs better when it is regularly run fairly hard. It is also fully capable of running as fast as it can go for as long as you can. Most Benzes are geared to turn around 3000rpm at around 70mph. The 240D might even spin a little faster than that at that speed. This helps give you access to as much power as the motor can make. If the noise really bothers you (and please don't ever tell us dieselheads that the lovely sound ever does in fact bother you), you can install a foam pad on the underside of the hood for around a hundred bucks. The car may have had one originally, but it would most likely have dried up and crumbled away by now. I say buy it. Take the hundred bucks we suggested that you spend on a prepurchase inspection (maybe just a little more than that depending on whether you pay someone for labor) and immediately get the valves adjusted (and check for timing chain stretch), get a new air filter, new breather hose from the valve cover to the air cleaner housing if the current one looks at all old, change the oil and oil filter, and maybe replace the fuel filter if the budget allows. It should probably then be perfectly reasonable for extended daily use. Then drive the heck out of it and discover why you will never again be able to blindly accept a lesser car. My name's Alec, and I'm a Benzaholic. Good luck, Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 167K ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:40:53 -0600 From: Jon Filina Subject: Re: [db] Last time before =?windows-1252?Q?purchase=97dieselhead?= =?windows-1252?Q?_opinion_poll?= Jason asked: > OK, guys^Wthis is the last check before I buy the thing, and at this point > I am almost planning to. I want as many (knowledgeable) opinions as I can > get by Sunday night, so I can make the best decision. Everything except > the details is just as best as I can see or find out Alec said it best! You won't go wrong if you follow his advice. I would like to add that your previous diesel experience will dictate just how much you will like this car. If you have never owned a diesel, this model, with the automatic transmission, will seem to be a "slug" to you. If it had the manual transmission, it would feel "sluggish". If you have owned diesels before, such as VW's like many of us have, it will feel the same, maybe a little bit better, but have a much nicer ride. The noise level will be the same as some of the early '90's VW's. My first two diesels were VW's. My '81 Rabbit, with the economy 4-speed, was dog snot slow. But it was a fun car. My '90 Jetta, with a 5-speed, was slow, but acceptable. My '81 240D, with a manual transmission, had about the same power during acceleration, but was much more powerful at highway speeds due to the additional torque. The noise level was comparable to the Jetta-a little loud, but bearable. My '84 300SD, 5 cylinder with turbo and an automatic, is a veritable hot rod by comparison and very quiet. My 240D is my all time favorite, though. It is the easiest car to work on that I have ever owned. The parts cost the same or less, for the most part, compared to my VW's. If it hadn't been for some drunk broad, gabbing on her cell phone while driving over 100 mph and running into me while I was doing 60, I'd still be driving "Mathilde" at around 350,000 miles on the clock. My mechanic has a customer who replaced the engine on his '83 240D, automatic, when it had 728,000 miles on it. It was still drivable, but burning a quart of oil every 50 miles. They are very reliable cars! At $1000, if you understand the "power" caveats, the 240D would do you well! Jon '84 300SD "Bruno" The hot rod! '81 240D "Mathilde" May she rest in peace... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 08:01:57 -0500 From: Mike Frank Subject: Re: [db] Last time before purchasedieselhead opinion poll A few thoughts: 1) I hate giving a remote opinion, but you ask, so here goes. 2) Deer hit. I once hit a concrete traffic barrier head on with a 300CD. It was put back together perfectly, except that the front end would never line up. Check the tires for uneven wear. But having seen the damage a concrete barrier can do, I doubt a deer would do more than cosmetic damage. 3) Oil in the air breather may be normal, or the result of exhaust blowing by the rings. Only way to be sure is a compression check (which isn't all that simple with a Diesel). If you buy the car, know that the best thing you can do is change the air, oil, and fuel filters frequently. These cars are VERY sensitive to the quality of their vittles. 4) Leaky lines won't hurt the engine, but they may hurt you. Fuel pressure is so high, Diesel can actually be injected right through your skin if a line breaks. Repair immediately. 5) Glow plugs on this engine are easy to replace, about like spark plugs. Glow plug fuse is in a bakelite holder on the firewall, may be bad. The glow plug computer is another possible problem. It's on the steering column, right above the driver's knees. Measure the resistance of each glow plug to determine if any are bad, should only be a couple of ohms. If they're all ok, suspect something else. 6) You can drive the car with your pedal on the floor all day, no prob. 7) Timing chain will likely stretch rather than break. This will require a timing adjustment. But at this mileage, I'd like to see the chain replaced just in case. 8) Overheating. You will find the motor tends to build heat at speed. On hot days, hill climbs, you will probably find it approaches overheating. A pint of water wetter added to the coolant is a good idea. I've never liked the way the aux fans work on Mercedes cars...they only cut in as a final attempt to cool the motor. Install an aftermarket thermostat, and have the electric fan come on at a reasonable temperature. 9) It's a quarter million mile car, and you're paying $1000. Keep your expectations low, avoid disappointment. Mike Frank At 10:55 PM 2/20/2004, Jason R Bassett wrote: >OK, guysthis is the last check before I buy the thing, and at this point >I am almost planning to. I want as many (knowledgeable) opinions as I can >get by Sunday night, so I can make the best decision. Everything except >the details is just as best as I can see or find out ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1370 **********************************