From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Fri Feb 27 08:55:06 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Friday, February 27 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1378 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] VW TDI question [db] RE: Diesel vs Gas MB E model Re: [db] RE: Diesel vs Gas MB E model Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:53:30 -0500 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] VW TDI question Heh heh, I agree with everything you mentioned in your message Alec. The one thing your not considering though is consumer opinion of diesel engines. The American public is in love with performance automobiles and line up year after year to purchase cars that in most cases outperform the drivers own driving skills. If you watch any of the car commercials on telivision or look at print ads all of the car companies (including Mercedes) push performance as one of the major features of their cars. When you have advertizements of V8 powered E class sedans blasting down the road at high rates of speed its a little difficult to push the economy and longevity of the diesel engine to the "common" American car buyer. While most of these performance engines end up suffocating to death in actual usage by sitting in bumper to bumper traffic people relate to the advertizing and are willing to pay for performance they are not able to utilize. As well "things are different over there" really sums up the European diesel cars. I have a good friend from England (he lives here in Atlanta now) who owns a TDI Jetta that gets absolutely amazing fuel economy. He is so used to doing so much walking in England that he walks to the grocery store and to run small errands that we would not think twice about jumping in the car for. I have another friend who is currently living in the Netherlands who owns a horrible little Renault. His justification for such a cheap car is he takes public transportation everywhere and just uses his car to get to places that are off the beaten path. America is very different than Europe as instead of public transportation and good rail systems we have a big dependance on cars to get from point a to b. Robert Chase Alec Cordova wrote: >Wow. Would you say you have an opinion on the issue, Robert? ;-) > >VW has been the only non-pickup diesel available in the US for many years, >but that will soon change. There are many reasons for the low participation, >since diesels account for a substantial fraction, if not a true majority, of >passenger car sales in Europe. Jaguar has been pinged for not offerring a >modern diesel in their X-Type, and I think BMW has been pinged for not >having a diesel available for the MINI Cooper. Last I read, BMW will be >using a diesel from Honda or Toyota in the MINI in Europe. > >A couple of big contributors to the large diesel presence over there: the >tax-based price advantage of diesel fuel over gasoline (no such tremendous >difference here in the US), and no European memory of the GM 350 diesel. > >I think an "official" reason is US emissions regulations. This one gets >interesting though. The Europeans do in fact have diesel engines that could >meet current emissions limits (in most states, which is another problem >since California is such a huge car market but imposes stricter emissions >rules), but to achieve those output numbers, they are often designed to use >diesel fuel with much lower sulfur content than older style diesel. Think of >the removal of lead from gasoline as a partial analogy. Europe distributes >low sulfur diesel. The US, probably in large part due to such groups as the >trucking and railroad industries, still distributes only the older style >high sulfur diesel. Again using lead as an analogy, engines designed for >high sulfur diesel are often not at all happy with low sulfur fuel, and many >US industries have a large existing investment in diesel engines that would >not yet be happy with low sulfur fuel. > >Well, low sulfur diesel will finally be the US standard in just a few more >years (along with even stricter diesel emissions rules that will pretty much >require the use of low sulfur fuel to achieve), and the Europeans don't want >to try to invest in parts and training to support bringing to the US their >diesel engines that could survive on our current diesel when those >manufacturers will have to reinvest in parts and training to support their >low sulfur burners when that fuel is available. Even worse, diesel emissions >rules are already mapped out for many years to come at reducing levels, and >even low sulfur fuel may not be sufficient to achieve the levels that will >be in place in 5 or 10 years. Again, are manufacturers willing to invest to >support engines that they may have to stop selling here again? > >Also, even in Europe, diesel engines often are not a cheap option. It may >cost several thousand dollars more to get diesel over a similar performance >gas engine. If fuel prices are on the order of 2 dollars for diesel and 5 >dollars for gasoline, it's easier to sell more expensive engines. With US >fuel pricing, it's kind of like the hybrid electric powertrains. They cost >many thousands of dollars more, but even with the increased fuel economy, >you're not likely to ever come out ahead. > >SO, MB will sell a diesel E-Class here next year, and a diesel Jeep Liberty >around the same time. The trade press says all manufacturers are watching to >see if US customers will actually pay the necessary price premium to buy >diesel engines. If they start selling, just about everybody has decent >diesels they've been selling for years in Europe, so they don't necessarily >have to design new motors, they just need to invest in supporting those >motors over here. > >Lastly for now (No, I don't have an opinions about this stuff either.), >modern diesels are truly amazing things. Current technology allows them to >produce multiple distinct injections of fuel into each cylinder during a >single ignition cycle. This benefits noise and harshness, as well as power >and emissions. (In Europe, MB offers the C30 AMG, a DIESEL AMG-engined >C-Class.) But this also drastically escalates the complexity of the >drivetrains. I believe a major reason the 240D and 300D/SD engines are so >incredibly reliable is their simplicity. They are marvels of mechanical >engineering, and they are not dependent on loads of electronics, an area >where MB has not proven to be as superior to other manufacturers as they >were in their mechanical engineering skills. > >Well, that's probably at least three cents' worth from me, so I'll try to >shut up for now and get back to prepping for a job interview tomorrow that >looks really promising. > >Alec Cordova >Taylor, Texas >89 300CE, 167K > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net >>[mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Robert Chase >>Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 6:13 PM >>To: Mike Mangrum >>Cc: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net >>Subject: Re: [db] VW TDI question >> >> >>Actually, >> >>The new E class will be sold in the US with a diesel "soon". Some >>friends of mine at the MB dealer told me about the car and they are >>actually accepting "pre orders" on the vehicle. The only problem is >>pricing. One of those new E's can easily get into the 50k range within >>a blink of an eye. The diesel engine due to its low numbers in the US >>will probably demand a premium. I have yet to see one in the flesh >>though. The E until recently was produced with a diesel engine. The >>problem is the US market. We all want to loose weight eating country >>fried steak and get great fuel economy in a gigantic SUV. Diesels will >>proabably never catch on here due to the "me first" American attitude >>and the idiotic president giving tax writeoffs for people buying $50k >>SUV's. >> >>Perhaps soon fuel economy will be measured in "soldiers per gallon" and >>they will have a payment plan at the gas station due to the high cost. >>Then again perhaps that day is already here? >> >>Robert Chase >> >>Mike Mangrum wrote: >> >> >> >>>The TDI site says: >>>"While TDI's are available in many countries around the world, >>> >>> >>Volkswagen is the only manufacturer selling diesels in Canada or the US." >> >> >>>So I went to the MB site to see if I could get a car with a >>> >>> >>diesel. Does not seem posible to do. Can you not get a diesel >>car from MB in the US? >> >> >>>Robert Chase wrote: >>>A friend of mine drives a tdi Jetta. They are a bit pokey but they are >>>great cars. If I was in the market for a new car I would have to do >>>either a TDI Jetta sedan or perhaps a 4 door TDI golf hatchback. They >>>also have a TDI Jetta Wagon as well. Prices on all of them are quite >>>reasonable. >>> >>>Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:49:06 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: [db] RE: Diesel vs Gas MB E model On Thu, 26 Feb 2004, Greg Hancock wrote: >-->John, >-->I noticed your mention below of a turbo diesel Jeep XJ >-->and wanted to ask you for more information on this >-->interesting beast. I have a '96 XJ and would love to >-->convert it to diesel when the engine croaks... what >-->engine did you use and how difficult was the swap? Did >-->you do it yourself, or did you hire it out? What do >-->you get for fuel economy? It was factory... 85-87 2.1L All-aluminum Renault Turbo Diesel... it produced 85 bhp and 115ft lbs of torque... it actually put out 2 more hp then the carb'd version of the 2.5l! It got 26/32 with the 5speed. It did 0 to 60 in about 19 seconds or so... was pretty useless as a tow vehicle. :) 1st gear was too tall to get rolling with a load... I'd have to use low range to get rolling then pop into into 2wd high while rolling forward. :) Parts were expensive and rare... unless of course you had a french connection. ;) It was typical french bleeding edge design... timing belt that had to be changed, alternator compliments of paris-rhone that failed often. used a bosch injection pump and an air-garret turbo. The 5spd tranny was a pathetic excuse for a gear box, I think it was french as well. :) All in all I loved it and if it would have had an automatic I would have kept it. But that clutch setup in the XJ's did a number of my fifth lumbar and I had to part with it... :( >-->I hope you don't mind the questions, but I've always >-->wondered if such an engine swap was possible and, if >-->so, how hard it would be. they actually make the Jeep Cherokees with Diesels all over the world, except for here in the good ole U S of A... I suppose with have GM and the greenies to thank for it... I am considering using a Mercedes 3.0L Turbo Diesel into an '87... but I'm not sure what will give out first... the '87 4.0L with 238,600 miles or the chassis itself... both are doing quite well. :) Jeep claims that in 2004 the Liberty will have a Turbo Diesel option... I've yet to see it advertised though. :( Knowing how much pain and suffering, and time, is involved in doing a conversion, I think I'd get over my aversion to the toon-town looks and the non-solid axles of the KJ to get one with a Diesel. :) BTW, I'm using a '96 4.0L out of an XJ in my '83 J10 stepside... it's been in work for a long, long time now... :( ttyl, john >-->Cheers, >--> >-->Greg Hancock >-->Seattle >--> >-->---------------------------------------- >--> >-->Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:21:32 -0800 >-->From: john >-->Subject: Diesel vs Gas MB E model >--> >-->>I'm sure this must be a old topic, but perhaps one >-->worth revisiting. I = >-->>posted this to alt.auto.mercedes and thought it would >-->be appropriate to = >-->>get opinions from all you diesel owners.=20 >-->> >-->>I currently own a 98 C280, which my wife drives. I >-->will be looking at >-->>something larger in the MB line for myself. >-->> >-->>I've been considering a E type diesel Vs gas. The >-->acceleration issue of = >-->>the >-->>diesel isn't a major problem for me, and the thought >-->of 250,000 plus = >-->>miles >-->>on the engine sounds attractive. But reviews of added >-->engine = >-->>maintenance, annoying vibration at idle, and >-->excessive noise at cruise = >-->>discourage me (along with hanging out at truck stops >-->:-) ). >-->> >-->>Any thoughts from the group? >-->> >-->>Scott Mack >-->Scott, >--> >-->First thing, please do not email HTML versions to the >-->list, they >-->bounce and I have to fix it... :) I'm forwarding your >-->note to the list. >--> >-->Second, EXCELLENT topic. >--> >-->Third, I've had 4 Mercedes, 3 Diesel, 1 gas. The gas >-->rig didn't hold >-->up as well, was exceedingly thirsty and costly to >-->repair. Didn't have >-->as much resale and isn't running right now because the >-->owner broke the >-->exhaust manifolds on the 4.5L V8 gas engine, $650 a >-->side to replace!!! >--> >-->The Mercedes Diesels are not that noisy, especially in >-->the cabin. I've >-->had many Diesels, American and European. The Mercedes >-->Diesels are the >-->finest, easiest to find parts for and very easy to >-->work on. >--> >-->As far as fuel, most Texaco, Shells and so on have >-->Diesel, even in the new >-->stores with the fast food outlets. I've also got a >-->commercial card lock >-->that I've used to fuel up with those truckers up and >-->down the west coast. >--> >-->Never, ever in over 15 years of driving a Dieselmobile >-->have I had problems >-->finding fuel. >--> >-->When I was filmed by a promotional video group by Jeep >-->this summer I tried >-->to get the Diesel message to Chrysler that we want the >-->Big Jeep (SJ's - the >-->Grand Wagoneers) brought back with Diesels. :) It >-->didn't make it into the >-->video they showed at the Jeep Camp though... :) >--> >-->The latest issue of STAR (MB club of America Magazine) >-->talks about a cabby >-->back east using the E300 Turbo Diesel and loving it. >--> IT's a beautiful >-->car, wish I could afford a new benz, because it'd be a >-->toss up between that >-->and the ML series... I hope they do make the ML270TD >-->available stateside. >--> >-->Diesel rules, gas stinks... :) >--> >-->(I had an 85 xj cherokee with the 2.1L Turbo Diesel, >-->on 4x4 runs >-->I used the handle "diesel john".) >--> >-->later, >-->john >--> >-->- ---------------------------------------------- >-->john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com >--> >--> Jeeps don't rust in Snohomish, WA, they mold... >--> ------------ >--> http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john/saved.html >--> Jesus - don't leave life without him... >-->- ---------------------------------------------------- >--> >-->__________________________________ ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:41:43 -0600 From: "Vernon Tuck" Subject: Re: [db] RE: Diesel vs Gas MB E model Wasn't there a Jeep which came with a Peugeot diesel engine, produced at some time and in some part of the world?? What's interesting about Peugeot is, to my understanding, they were the first auto manufacturer to put a diesel engine into a car. On that basis alone I bought an engine out of a late 70s 504 station wagon in the hopes that I could some day transplant it into a Jeep. Another one of my hare brained ideas... VT On Thu, 26 Feb 2004, Greg Hancock wrote: >-->John, >-->I noticed your mention below of a turbo diesel Jeep XJ >-->and wanted to ask you for more information on this >-->interesting beast. I have a '96 XJ and would love to >-->convert it to diesel when the engine croaks... what >-->engine did you use and how difficult was the swap? Did >-->you do it yourself, or did you hire it out? What do >-->you get for fuel economy? It was factory... 85-87 2.1L All-aluminum Renault Turbo Diesel... it produced 85 bhp and 115ft lbs of torque... it actually put out 2 more hp then the carb'd version of the 2.5l! It got 26/32 with the 5speed. It did 0 to 60 in about 19 seconds or so... was pretty useless as a tow vehicle. :) 1st gear was too tall to get rolling with a load... I'd have to use low range to get rolling then pop into into 2wd high while rolling forward. :) Parts were expensive and rare... unless of course you had a french connection. ;) It was typical french bleeding edge design... timing belt that had to be changed, alternator compliments of paris-rhone that failed often. used a bosch injection pump and an air-garret turbo. The 5spd tranny was a pathetic excuse for a gear box, I think it was french as well. :) All in all I loved it and if it would have had an automatic I would have kept it. But that clutch setup in the XJ's did a number of my fifth lumbar and I had to part with it... :( >-->I hope you don't mind the questions, but I've always >-->wondered if such an engine swap was possible and, if >-->so, how hard it would be. they actually make the Jeep Cherokees with Diesels all over the world, except for here in the good ole U S of A... I suppose with have GM and the greenies to thank for it... I am considering using a Mercedes 3.0L Turbo Diesel into an '87... but I'm not sure what will give out first... the '87 4.0L with 238,600 miles or the chassis itself... both are doing quite well. :) Jeep claims that in 2004 the Liberty will have a Turbo Diesel option... I've yet to see it advertised though. :( Knowing how much pain and suffering, and time, is involved in doing a conversion, I think I'd get over my aversion to the toon-town looks and the non-solid axles of the KJ to get one with a Diesel. :) BTW, I'm using a '96 4.0L out of an XJ in my '83 J10 stepside... it's been in work for a long, long time now... :( ttyl, john >-->Cheers, >--> >-->Greg Hancock >-->Seattle >--> >-->---------------------------------------- >--> >-->Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:21:32 -0800 >-->From: john >-->Subject: Diesel vs Gas MB E model >--> >-->>I'm sure this must be a old topic, but perhaps one >-->worth revisiting. I = >-->>posted this to alt.auto.mercedes and thought it would >-->be appropriate to = >-->>get opinions from all you diesel owners.=20 >-->> >-->>I currently own a 98 C280, which my wife drives. I >-->will be looking at >-->>something larger in the MB line for myself. >-->> >-->>I've been considering a E type diesel Vs gas. The >-->acceleration issue of = >-->>the >-->>diesel isn't a major problem for me, and the thought >-->of 250,000 plus = >-->>miles >-->>on the engine sounds attractive. But reviews of added >-->engine = >-->>maintenance, annoying vibration at idle, and >-->excessive noise at cruise = >-->>discourage me (along with hanging out at truck stops >-->:-) ). >-->> >-->>Any thoughts from the group? >-->> >-->>Scott Mack >-->Scott, >--> >-->First thing, please do not email HTML versions to the >-->list, they >-->bounce and I have to fix it... :) I'm forwarding your >-->note to the list. >--> >-->Second, EXCELLENT topic. >--> >-->Third, I've had 4 Mercedes, 3 Diesel, 1 gas. The gas >-->rig didn't hold >-->up as well, was exceedingly thirsty and costly to >-->repair. Didn't have >-->as much resale and isn't running right now because the >-->owner broke the >-->exhaust manifolds on the 4.5L V8 gas engine, $650 a >-->side to replace!!! >--> >-->The Mercedes Diesels are not that noisy, especially in >-->the cabin. I've >-->had many Diesels, American and European. The Mercedes >-->Diesels are the >-->finest, easiest to find parts for and very easy to >-->work on. >--> >-->As far as fuel, most Texaco, Shells and so on have >-->Diesel, even in the new >-->stores with the fast food outlets. I've also got a >-->commercial card lock >-->that I've used to fuel up with those truckers up and >-->down the west coast. >--> >-->Never, ever in over 15 years of driving a Dieselmobile >-->have I had problems >-->finding fuel. >--> >-->When I was filmed by a promotional video group by Jeep >-->this summer I tried >-->to get the Diesel message to Chrysler that we want the >-->Big Jeep (SJ's - the >-->Grand Wagoneers) brought back with Diesels. :) It >-->didn't make it into the >-->video they showed at the Jeep Camp though... :) >--> >-->The latest issue of STAR (MB club of America Magazine) >-->talks about a cabby >-->back east using the E300 Turbo Diesel and loving it. >--> IT's a beautiful >-->car, wish I could afford a new benz, because it'd be a >-->toss up between that >-->and the ML series... I hope they do make the ML270TD >-->available stateside. >--> >-->Diesel rules, gas stinks... :) >--> >-->(I had an 85 xj cherokee with the 2.1L Turbo Diesel, >-->on 4x4 runs >-->I used the handle "diesel john".) >--> >-->later, >-->john >--> >-->- ---------------------------------------------- >-->john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com >--> >--> Jeeps don't rust in Snohomish, WA, they mold... >--> ------------ >--> http://www.virtual-cafe.com/~john/saved.html >--> Jesus - don't leave life without him... >-->- ---------------------------------------------------- >--> >-->__________________________________ ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1378 **********************************