From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Thu Mar 18 07:07:25 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Thursday, March 18 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1397 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] 240D starter Re: [db] 240D starter RE: [db] 240D starter [db] Re: 240D starter Re: [db] re: seized engine 240D turbo Re: [db] re: seized engine 240D turbo Re: [db] re: seized engine 240D turbo RE: [db] 240D starter RE: [db] 240D starter Re: [db] 240D starter RE: [db] 240D starter [db] Re: [MB] RE: Diesel Smoke in Dallas Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:47:29 -0500 From: "Jim Hoffman" Subject: Re: [db] 240D starter Here in S.E. Wisconsin we have a local rebuild shop but that's not going to help you ;) I would imagine there are local rebuild shops in all major cities. Look in the yellow pages under Automotive parts new & used? I had the starter and alternator rebuilt at my local shop and they did fine. Jim/ > The starter in my 1980 240D appears to be toast. > > Pulled it, had it tested, and it does fine on the bench (at auto-zone, I > don't trust them) > > The guy testing it said quote "I don't want to sell you a part that > isn't bad". > > This is what it does - when I bang on it with a hammer (being > frustrated), it works, but when it works the starter gear doesn't > release from the flywheel right away, and makes a grinding noise(but > will start the car). This works with maybe two or three starts, then it > just quits altogether and wont even attempt to turn. Until I bang on it > again. > > Any ideas before I get this sucker rebuilt? > > (It was rebuilt by Bosch in 1991, according to the metal plaque on the > side of it) > > > > Jeremy > > 1980 240D > > 1980 450SEL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:58:03 -0600 From: "Vernon Tuck" Subject: Re: [db] 240D starter Dudes! On Volksies it is SOP to replace the little brass bushing every single time you replace the starter. However, Mercedes people do not seem to ever do this. That grinding sound is one of the side effects of not doing this on a volksie... I am highly suspicious that it is something which should be done on MBs as well. I have been dealing with this same problem (did NOT replace the bushing last time) and have been talking to Sam Williams about it. Not to speak for Sam, but as I recall, he thinks the problem could be a weak starter bendix, a bad key tumbler or a bad ignition switch (electrical side). Vernon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:17:21 -0800 From: "derick" Subject: RE: [db] 240D starter I had a Saab 99 starter that did approx the same thing. What you need is one of the new "calibrated" starter hammers... ;) Seriously. When I found out the price of a rebuild I had to sit down. Then I tore into it. My problem turned out to be two things. One the bendix spring was bad so I purchased a new bendix.(bendix is the gear/spring assy at the end of the starter) Two the brass end bushing was worn pretty badly. I used a drift to punch out the old bushing and installed the new one. Then put in the new bendix. Was working when I sold the car 6 months later. Total cost as I recall was less than $40. (plus the coffee I drank doing it) I got the bushing at a dc motor rebuild shop. I purchased the bendix from a euro parts vendor (forget which one). Hope this helps. good luck. Derick - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Jeremy Bowne Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 2:44 PM To: Diesel Benz List (E-mail) Subject: [db] 240D starter The starter in my 1980 240D appears to be toast. Pulled it, had it tested, and it does fine on the bench (at auto-zone, I don't trust them) The guy testing it said quote "I don't want to sell you a part that isn't bad". This is what it does - when I bang on it with a hammer (being frustrated), it works, but when it works the starter gear doesn't release from the flywheel right away, and makes a grinding noise(but will start the car). This works with maybe two or three starts, then it just quits altogether and wont even attempt to turn. Until I bang on it again. Any ideas before I get this sucker rebuilt? (It was rebuilt by Bosch in 1991, according to the metal plaque on the side of it) Jeremy 1980 240D 1980 450SEL - --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/2004 - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:23:03 -0600 From: flash Subject: [db] Re: 240D starter > The starter in my 1980 240D appears to be toast. > > Pulled it, had it tested, and it does fine on the bench (at auto-zone, I > don't trust them) > > The guy testing it said quote "I don't want to sell you a part that > isn't bad". > > This is what it does - when I bang on it with a hammer (being > frustrated), it works, but when it works the starter gear doesn't > release from the flywheel right away, and makes a grinding noise(but > will start the car). This works with maybe two or three starts, then it > just quits altogether and wont even attempt to turn. Until I bang on it > again. > > Any ideas before I get this sucker rebuilt? > > (It was rebuilt by Bosch in 1991, according to the metal plaque on the > side of it) > > > > Jeremy I bought a rebuild last summer and put it in - $80 exchange. I didn't need it. It turned out to be my key switch. Not the key part, but the electrics at the back. Cheap (in a Benz?) metal broke and the key would not go all the way to the start position. That was my experience - it may apply to your situation with starter working on bench test? Dan ChicagoArea '81 240D with clutch ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 18:24:09 -0700 From: junot Subject: Re: [db] re: seized engine 240D turbo greetings vernon ... i value unsolicited opinions as much as those i request .... yes, i have also thought of these things ... and i will certainly think twice before i put a good engine at risk with some aftermarket bolt on arrangement ... i do not much care about the 'extra' power' ... even turbo'd ..i cannot imagine this motor being all that quick ... if the car will get me from point a to point b in a reliable fashion for hundreds of thousands of miles i will be more than content ... thanks for common sense input cheers, junot Vernon Tuck wrote: >Hi junot, > >It's your car and your call. But you could easily spend $3000 rebuilding >that engine. It would be a shame to toast it a second time. > >Old Mercedes Benzes are not hard to find, and while not cheap, are generally >not to expensive. All turbocharged diesel engines have oil spray nozzles >which cool the undersides of the pistons with a fine mist of oil. Some >naturally aspirated engines also have this. Therefore, they are NATURALLY >turbo ready. The Ford/International 6.9 diesel (early to late 80s) is an >example of this. > >However, your engine is not in that category. In addition to strengthened >rods, pistons, and slightly different compression ratios AND gear ratios, >here are some other differences such as the valve and valve guide materials >selected for turbocharged engines. > >If you simply must have more power, you'll be miles and miles ahead to part >out this car (including turbo) and use the money to buy a 300TD. > >Screwing around with German design and engineering will bite you in the ass >101% of the time. Turbocharging the 240D engine is simply not a wise >engineering choice if I may so brash as to offer up this unsolicited >opinion. > > >Regards, >Vernon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:12:40 -0600 From: "Vernon Tuck" Subject: Re: [db] re: seized engine 240D turbo junot, make no mistake... for those diesel engines which are turbochargeable... there is no downside. Better mileage AND more power. This becomes especially noticeable in the high mountains. But the 240D diesel is just not turbo ready. Over and out. Vernon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 04:42:17 +0000 From: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net Subject: Re: [db] re: seized engine 240D turbo you might research the connecting rods used on the 3.0L TD... who knows, they might interchange... if you keep the boost low enough the crank might hold up to it... :) or, take the money you would have spent and buy a TD version already running. :) john > greetings vernon and john > > the chances of me finding out who did this are almost nil ... there is > no paperwork with this car ... machinists will pretty much do what u ask > them to .. they do not have much interest in warranties other than their > own ... no matter .. i have a good machinist who has done much work for > me in the past ... u could have lunch on his shop floor ... i trust him > implicitly ... > as for the turbocharging ... i may just elect to keep it and keep the > boost pressures low ... i do not know whether strengthened pistons and > rods are available for this motor, but i will ask the advice of said > machinist and go with his recommendations .... > > thanks again, > junot > > Vernon Tuck wrote: > > >I cannot believe that an accredited rebuilder would touch turbocharging a > >240D engine, which would certainly void any warranty. > > > >VT > > > > > john wrote: > > I'd find out who the rebuilder was and see if there was > any warranty left... and/or never use them again. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:36:50 -0600 From: "Sam Williams" <1sam-at-io.com> Subject: RE: [db] 240D starter Jeremy, Derick makes good sense to me. I'd recommend adding a new solenoid, too. It screws onto side of starter. Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of derick Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 5:17 PM To: 'Jeremy Bowne'; 'Diesel Benz List (E-mail)' Subject: RE: [db] 240D starter I had a Saab 99 starter that did approx the same thing. What you need is one of the new "calibrated" starter hammers... ;) Seriously. When I found out the price of a rebuild I had to sit down. Then I tore into it. My problem turned out to be two things. One the bendix spring was bad so I purchased a new bendix.(bendix is the gear/spring assy at the end of the starter) Two the brass end bushing was worn pretty badly. I used a drift to punch out the old bushing and installed the new one. Then put in the new bendix. Was working when I sold the car 6 months later. Total cost as I recall was less than $40. (plus the coffee I drank doing it) I got the bushing at a dc motor rebuild shop. I purchased the bendix from a euro parts vendor (forget which one). Hope this helps. good luck. Derick - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Jeremy Bowne Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 2:44 PM To: Diesel Benz List (E-mail) Subject: [db] 240D starter The starter in my 1980 240D appears to be toast. Pulled it, had it tested, and it does fine on the bench (at auto-zone, I don't trust them) The guy testing it said quote "I don't want to sell you a part that isn't bad". This is what it does - when I bang on it with a hammer (being frustrated), it works, but when it works the starter gear doesn't release from the flywheel right away, and makes a grinding noise(but will start the car). This works with maybe two or three starts, then it just quits altogether and wont even attempt to turn. Until I bang on it again. Any ideas before I get this sucker rebuilt? (It was rebuilt by Bosch in 1991, according to the metal plaque on the side of it) Jeremy 1980 240D 1980 450SEL - --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/2004 - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:03:45 -0700 From: "Jeremy Bowne" Subject: RE: [db] 240D starter Thanks for everyone's input, I'm going to grab a new solenoid from rusty, try that, and replace the brushes (where are they located on the starter, is it those extremely large flathead screwdriver looking things on the side of it? Or is it on the end...) Maybe I should bring it to a shop. I'm 100% sure I won't get some cheap aftermarket replacement, after my auto-zone alternator experience, (yeah, lifetime warranty shouldn't mean a lifetime of bringing it back every 2 weeks for a replacement.) Also, I'm 95% sure its not the ignition. When the starter won't turn, I can hear a "zap" sound, so I had my wife try to start it when I was looking in the engine compartment... and sparks were flying from the back of the starter. (??????????????) Jeremy - -----Original Message----- From: Sam Williams [mailto:1sam-at-io.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 10:37 PM To: derick-at-amburgey.us; 'Jeremy Bowne'; 'Diesel Benz List (E-mail)' Subject: RE: [db] 240D starter Jeremy, Derick makes good sense to me. I'd recommend adding a new solenoid, too. It screws onto side of starter. Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of derick Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 5:17 PM To: 'Jeremy Bowne'; 'Diesel Benz List (E-mail)' Subject: RE: [db] 240D starter I had a Saab 99 starter that did approx the same thing. What you need is one of the new "calibrated" starter hammers... ;) Seriously. When I found out the price of a rebuild I had to sit down. Then I tore into it. My problem turned out to be two things. One the bendix spring was bad so I purchased a new bendix.(bendix is the gear/spring assy at the end of the starter) Two the brass end bushing was worn pretty badly. I used a drift to punch out the old bushing and installed the new one. Then put in the new bendix. Was working when I sold the car 6 months later. Total cost as I recall was less than $40. (plus the coffee I drank doing it) I got the bushing at a dc motor rebuild shop. I purchased the bendix from a euro parts vendor (forget which one). Hope this helps. good luck. Derick - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Jeremy Bowne Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 2:44 PM To: Diesel Benz List (E-mail) Subject: [db] 240D starter The starter in my 1980 240D appears to be toast. Pulled it, had it tested, and it does fine on the bench (at auto-zone, I don't trust them) The guy testing it said quote "I don't want to sell you a part that isn't bad". This is what it does - when I bang on it with a hammer (being frustrated), it works, but when it works the starter gear doesn't release from the flywheel right away, and makes a grinding noise(but will start the car). This works with maybe two or three starts, then it just quits altogether and wont even attempt to turn. Until I bang on it again. Any ideas before I get this sucker rebuilt? (It was rebuilt by Bosch in 1991, according to the metal plaque on the side of it) Jeremy 1980 240D 1980 450SEL - --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/2004 - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:31:01 -0600 From: "Vernon Tuck" Subject: Re: [db] 240D starter Sounds to me like you have a defective ground... VT << and sparks were flying from the back of the starter. (??????????????) Jeremy>> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:19:19 -0800 From: "xbxx" Subject: RE: [db] 240D starter Jeremy, I worked in my father auto electric rebuild shop for years. Looks like 1) your bendix drive (the goody that injects the spinning starter armature into the flywheel) is out and 2) if you pull it for that, go ahead and get it rebuilt, it won't be that much more expensive, and it will be guaranteed not to go out for at least another 100k or so. Also if the starter has been spinning with the motor because the bendix got stuck in the flywheel, the whole mother could be fragged on the inside, meaning you should let the rebuild shop eat it as a "full" rebuild. They make money on units needing bearings and brushes, but when one is fragged, they actually lose money rebuilding it. - -Wolf - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:43:30 -0700 From: "Jeremy Bowne" Subject: [db] 240D starter The starter in my 1980 240D appears to be toast. Pulled it, had it tested, and it does fine on the bench (at auto-zone, I don't trust them) The guy testing it said quote "I don't want to sell you a part that isn't bad". This is what it does - when I bang on it with a hammer (being frustrated), it works, but when it works the starter gear doesn't release from the flywheel right away, and makes a grinding noise(but will start the car). This works with maybe two or three starts, then it just quits altogether and wont even attempt to turn. Until I bang on it again. Any ideas before I get this sucker rebuilt? (It was rebuilt by Bosch in 1991, according to the metal plaque on the side of it) Jeremy 1980 240D 1980 450SEL - ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1396 ********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:56:28 -0600 From: Jon Filina Subject: [db] Re: [MB] RE: Diesel Smoke in Dallas Clifford concluded by saying: > Clifford T. Floeck, III > Abilene, TX (Now at Wally World RDC [WalMart Dist. Ctr] in Plainview, TX) Did you pick your load up at Gourmet Award Foods in Dallas? If so, we worked together that day, sort of.. Gourmet Foods contracted with the air freight company I work for, AIT Worldwide, to move a trailer load from Dallas to Plainview with an 0930 appointment delivery. We, in turn, contracted with R.O.C. Transport to move the shipment. They found a driver to do the run and it may have been you.... We may be an air freight company, but a large portion of our shipments are moved on 18 wheeled aircraft. Gourmet Award are really cheapskates when it comes to price. I'm sure you took this run to get you closer to home. If you picked this load up elseware..never mind.... Jon ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1397 **********************************