From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Mon Apr 12 12:53:01 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Monday, April 12 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1410 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy RE: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:10:07 +0000 From: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net Subject: RE: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy When I'm selling a vehicle I attempt to identify every nit-picking little flaw that I can find... then I take the blue book value, retail or some high value, and then deduct the costs of fixing those items, at least what it would cost me doing the work. Very rarely do I have anyone complain or feel taken. It works well for me as I save myself the trouble of fixing something and feel comfortable about the transaction... I hate it when something I hadn't known about comes up though... makes me feel bad for the buyer. But because I attempted to be as honest as possible by identifying all the defects rarely do they feel I tried to hide something. Used cars often have surprises. I never have a problem with someone taking a car to a mechanic to have it checked out. Rarely will I drop the price on the car further then what I've estimated the repairs to be though. If the car has that much trouble then I'll fix it to keep from going backwards, or sell it as a fixer for a fair price. I'd rather have someone find the problem before buying it and knowing rather then coming back telling me about it later. If the mechanic doesn't find it then it's unlikely anyone is going to blame me either. :) The car in Phoenix looks nice, except for the maroon interior. I'd be interested in something like that as a fixer, for the right price. Cars that look good but have a mechanical flaw are fine with me. It's the ones that look bad with mechanical problems that are more trouble then they're worth. :) Based on the feedback that the seller has I have a hunch that you'll get your deposit back without too much pain and suffering. I prefer to stick with Jeeps and 4x4's... they have value if they are still in one piece, multiple pieces, run, barely run or whatever... cars on the other hand are a lot harder to deal with... ;) john > Hi Jan, > > Sorry if this was expensive for you. I forget if you were original victim > in this thread. > > Robert is right; 'Buyer Beware' is an old saw, its value proven over time. > While it may be regrettable that others do not share exactly our own sense > of honor, it may be inevitable. It's good that, more often than not, they > are close. The saying applies not only when a seller is trying to defraud > but also when seller has best of intentions but is ignorant of actual > condition of product. > > If this seller was doing so because of financial distress (not uncommon > these days) the refund may be slow in coming. Am glad the loss was > minimized by insisting on a PPI. > > Sam > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On > Behalf Of Jan Guthrie > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:00 AM > Cc: Robert Chase; Jeremy Bowne; dieseljohn-at-comcast.net; Diesel Benz List > (E-mail); Mercedes Diesel list > Subject: Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy > > Robert ........ > I guess I find it interesting that you think disclosing *the whole truth* > about the car would *unfairly* ????? lower the value of the car. > > And I think it is an issue with him. He *is* selling the car for "some" > reason. And he wants to get as much for it as he can. And IMHO disclosing > the whole truth would very fairly lower the true value of the car as opposed > to the perceived value on a car with an assumed "good" engine. He may NOT > have known about the low compression on the first auction, but now he does. > > I also find it interesting that you say first "BUYER BEWARE" and "if you > don't check the car its your fault" and then state that you won't let > someone have the car inspected. I cannot imagine a true professional > mechanic leaving his shop and coming out to your house to *drive the car*. > So by definition you seem to be limiting your definition of mechanic to "my > brother who works on cars at night" type of mechanic. Some of us don't > have one of those. ;^) > > So by not letting them get the car inspected, you are then asking them to > trust you???? > > There is a huge difference between nitpicking every small detail and finding > out if the car needs a new engine. > > If the seller does not want to let me find out *exactly* what I am buying > ..... I will go spend my money elsewhere. > > Jan Guthrie > 1985 300TD > > > Robert Chase wrote: > > > It might not be an issue to him. The car does run. To be honest I > > would probably not put it in if I were selling the car as to not scare > > off buyers and unfairly lower his value on the car. When buying a used > > car it is BUYER BEWARE! If you don't check the car its your fault. I > > have always refused allowing my vehicles being sold to be taken to > > mechanics for this exact reason. They are welcome to let their > > mechanics come and drive the car but on a 10+ year old vehicle there is > > always something wrong. Someone who wants to nitpick every small detail > > should be buying a new car and not a preowned. > > > > Robert Chase > > > > Jeremy Bowne wrote: > > > > >In the new listing I don't see anything about low compression. > > >If he was honest you'd think he would put that there. > > >This guy seems like a car salesman... > > > > > >Jeremy > > -- > > $:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x$:0^0:$x,88,x$: > > Jan > Jan Guthrie Yacht Brokerage > jan-at-buy-a-boat.com > 262-553-1998 > http://www.buy-a-boat.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:20:45 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Shame on you, Robert. I thought you were nicer than that. > I have played the "let my mechanic look at it" game before. To be > honest with you its really just a game buyers commonly employ to lower > the value of the car. Maybe this has been your experience, but I have paid for the eyes of a competent mechanic because they know more than I do. As we have discussed on this list many times, there are some repairs on older Benzes that nearly exceed the value of the car, and the need for those repairs may not be clear to someone who is not an expert. We almost bought a lovely W111 coupe many years ago, I think it was a 1970 280SE. When we requested a PPI, the seller would not allow us to drive the car to the mechanic (one of the three top MB mechanics in the area, and known to be reputable), and the PPI revealed why. The transmission was barely there, and the seller, who had to have known this considering how bad the tranny was, had not chosen to disclose this. He was trying to present the car as being something substantially other than what it turned out to be. We paid and thanked our PPI mechanic and left that deal to someone else. On another occasion, we repeatedly suggested that our potential buyer get a PPI on the 85 Porsche 944 we were selling, although we were not aware of any problems with this daily driver. He never got around to it, but within two weeks he had to put about a thousand dollars into the clutch system. Granted, we saw him driving the car quite a bit more maliciously than we had ever driven it, but a PPI may have uncovered this unknown condition before the sale, and we would have negotiated further because of it. We thought we were selling a car that would not need a thousand bucks within weeks, subject to the standard risks associated with any car, new or used. Had a trained eye examined the car before the sale, we would have known that our assumption was wrong, and that would have materially changed what we were selling, necessarily affecting our asking price. On yet another occasion, while the PPI disclosed some basically normal maintenance items coming up, like some suspension rubber, it actually convinced us even more that the car in question was worth the asking price, because the engine, transmission, and climate control showed no signs to an impartial third-party expert of their imminent demise. So PPIs from a hack or from too close a friend of the buyer may be just gimmicks, please don't condemn PPIs from known, impartial, competent, reputable mechanics. I consider them similar to inspections required on a house to get a loan for purchase. A good professional one can simply provide a more complete picture of what one intends to buy, allowing a more accurate determination of the value of the potential purchase to the potential purchaser. Alec ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:11:28 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Jan, Your lucky there a lot of sellers indicate nonrefundable in their item descriptions. Personally I could not say that I would be as sympathetic myself with such an old car. While the fees are comparible with a regular car ad they are one time use and he is out the fees unless he files a non paying bidder form against you. Have you considered a car buying service? My credit union has a deal where they will find pretty much any car you want for a fee. Not sure if they do cars that old or if they will jump through the inspection hoops but its a thought. Robert Chase Jan Guthrie wrote: >Robert ..... > >If you remember ... that is the message that started this whole thread. > >He had said that he would. That was the agreement. But so far he has not. > >It does not cost that much to sell a car on eBay. I have listed boats on eBay. >And he can relist it for free. > >It cost me over $500.00 on top of the deposit to go through this exercise. > >Jan > >Robert Chase wrote: > > > >>Jan, >> >> >>So is this guy really refunding your deposit? Its pretty expensive to >>sell a car on Ebay these days and he is stuck with the fees. >> >> >> > >$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x$:0^0:$x,88,x$: > >Jan >Jan Guthrie Yacht Brokerage >jan-at-buy-a-boat.com >262-553-1998 >http://www.buy-a-boat.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 15:10:22 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Alec, I am nice. I just don't like my time wasted. Used cars are a risk and if some buyers are uncomfortable with the risk they should consider buying new cars. I have my car regularly serviced and my mechanic advises me of any issues I might have. A pre purchase inspection is a very detailed inspection that involves a lot of items. If you took 100 random 10+ year old Mercedes on the market and did a PPI on them maybee 10 would pass with no problems found. So let me ask you what do you suggest the seller of a car needing repairs do? Should they throw the car away? Should they just give it away to the buyer because of a few repair items? Quite honestly there are a lot of service jobs that can cost more than the fair market value of a car. A suspension overhaul on an older diesel 126 sedan can easily do this. The difference between a Mercedes enthusiast and a used car destroyer is just that. Someone who looks at a car as a financial venture is not an enthusiast (no matter what they may say to the contrary) and is merely assisting the used car market in deteriorating the existing cars on the market as they jump from car to car trying to play it cheap trying to avoid that transmission or engine overhaul. While they may like the make their obsession with their pocket book only serves to eliminate perfectly good cars from existance because they were too cheap to do the repairs. Then again thats probably why all new cars are disposable tin cans these days. Most cars easily excede their original purchace price in service and repairs throughout their lifetime. If you have ever looked at Ferrari's their service schedule can excede the value of the car in less than a year depending on the milage the driver puts on the car. Cars like that only survive because their owners are willing to spend the money to keep them on the road. Imagine if you could see that 10 year old gullwing being crushed because of cheap owner who did not want to repair the transmission. Robert Chase Alec Cordova wrote: >Shame on you, Robert. I thought you were nicer than that. > > > >>I have played the "let my mechanic look at it" game before. To be >>honest with you its really just a game buyers commonly employ to lower >>the value of the car. >> >> > >Maybe this has been your experience, but I have paid for the eyes of a >competent mechanic because they know more than I do. As we have discussed on >this list many times, there are some repairs on older Benzes that nearly >exceed the value of the car, and the need for those repairs may not be clear >to someone who is not an expert. > >We almost bought a lovely W111 coupe many years ago, I think it was a 1970 >280SE. When we requested a PPI, the seller would not allow us to drive the >car to the mechanic (one of the three top MB mechanics in the area, and >known to be reputable), and the PPI revealed why. The transmission was >barely there, and the seller, who had to have known this considering how bad >the tranny was, had not chosen to disclose this. He was trying to present >the car as being something substantially other than what it turned out to >be. We paid and thanked our PPI mechanic and left that deal to someone else. > >On another occasion, we repeatedly suggested that our potential buyer get a >PPI on the 85 Porsche 944 we were selling, although we were not aware of any >problems with this daily driver. He never got around to it, but within two >weeks he had to put about a thousand dollars into the clutch system. >Granted, we saw him driving the car quite a bit more maliciously than we had >ever driven it, but a PPI may have uncovered this unknown condition before >the sale, and we would have negotiated further because of it. We thought we >were selling a car that would not need a thousand bucks within weeks, >subject to the standard risks associated with any car, new or used. Had a >trained eye examined the car before the sale, we would have known that our >assumption was wrong, and that would have materially changed what we were >selling, necessarily affecting our asking price. > >On yet another occasion, while the PPI disclosed some basically normal >maintenance items coming up, like some suspension rubber, it actually >convinced us even more that the car in question was worth the asking price, >because the engine, transmission, and climate control showed no signs to an >impartial third-party expert of their imminent demise. > >So PPIs from a hack or from too close a friend of the buyer may be just >gimmicks, please don't condemn PPIs from known, impartial, competent, >reputable mechanics. I consider them similar to inspections required on a >house to get a loan for purchase. A good professional one can simply provide >a more complete picture of what one intends to buy, allowing a more accurate >determination of the value of the potential purchase to the potential >purchaser. > >Alec ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 14:06:45 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Yep, Ebay is a lucrative place to buy a car. The photos of the car usually make it look really good especially when its shiny and clean. Unfortunatly there is a little more to the car buying experience than a pretty paint job and clean interior. I have never liked the concept of "fly in and drive out" as a cross country drive in a car you don't know is a bit risky. Additionally a lot of sleazy dealers will take a marginal car and make it look good in the ad and have a few surprises waiting for you when you come to get the car. Your choices are buy the car you have overpaid for at the agreed price or cut your losses and loose your travel costs and deposit and go to the airport and pay for a very expensive ticket home. Additionally the idea of bidding on a car that you dont know is kind of silly. There are no allowances for mechanical repairs or any other issues. The car sells for top dollar if its cosmetically perfect regardless of what service and repair work it will need. An auto auction might work for a dealership because the prices are wholesale and there is "wiggle room" to complete needed repair work before the car goes on the lot. In a retail auction this room does not exist and commonly cars sell for above retail prices in some cases. Robert Chase Sam Williams wrote: >Hi Jan, > >Sorry if this was expensive for you. I forget if you were original victim >in this thread. > >Robert is right; 'Buyer Beware' is an old saw, its value proven over time. >While it may be regrettable that others do not share exactly our own sense >of honor, it may be inevitable. It's good that, more often than not, they >are close. The saying applies not only when a seller is trying to defraud >but also when seller has best of intentions but is ignorant of actual >condition of product. > >If this seller was doing so because of financial distress (not uncommon >these days) the refund may be slow in coming. Am glad the loss was >minimized by insisting on a PPI. > >Sam > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On >Behalf Of Jan Guthrie >Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:00 AM >Cc: Robert Chase; Jeremy Bowne; dieseljohn-at-comcast.net; Diesel Benz List >(E-mail); Mercedes Diesel list >Subject: Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy > >Robert ........ >I guess I find it interesting that you think disclosing *the whole truth* >about the car would *unfairly* ????? lower the value of the car. > >And I think it is an issue with him. He *is* selling the car for "some" >reason. And he wants to get as much for it as he can. And IMHO disclosing >the whole truth would very fairly lower the true value of the car as opposed >to the perceived value on a car with an assumed "good" engine. He may NOT >have known about the low compression on the first auction, but now he does. > >I also find it interesting that you say first "BUYER BEWARE" and "if you >don't check the car its your fault" and then state that you won't let >someone have the car inspected. I cannot imagine a true professional >mechanic leaving his shop and coming out to your house to *drive the car*. >So by definition you seem to be limiting your definition of mechanic to "my >brother who works on cars at night" type of mechanic. Some of us don't >have one of those. ;^) > >So by not letting them get the car inspected, you are then asking them to >trust you???? > >There is a huge difference between nitpicking every small detail and finding >out if the car needs a new engine. > >If the seller does not want to let me find out *exactly* what I am buying >..... I will go spend my money elsewhere. > >Jan Guthrie >1985 300TD > > >Robert Chase wrote: > > > >>It might not be an issue to him. The car does run. To be honest I >>would probably not put it in if I were selling the car as to not scare >>off buyers and unfairly lower his value on the car. When buying a used >>car it is BUYER BEWARE! If you don't check the car its your fault. I >>have always refused allowing my vehicles being sold to be taken to >>mechanics for this exact reason. They are welcome to let their >>mechanics come and drive the car but on a 10+ year old vehicle there is >>always something wrong. Someone who wants to nitpick every small detail >>should be buying a new car and not a preowned. >> >>Robert Chase >> >>Jeremy Bowne wrote: >> >> >> >>>In the new listing I don't see anything about low compression. >>>If he was honest you'd think he would put that there. >>>This guy seems like a car salesman... >>> >>>Jeremy >>> >>> > >-- > >$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x$:0^0:$x,88,x$: > >Jan >Jan Guthrie Yacht Brokerage >jan-at-buy-a-boat.com >262-553-1998 >http://www.buy-a-boat.com ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1410 **********************************