From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Mon Apr 12 14:14:30 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Monday, April 12 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1412 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy [db] interesting 124 info Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:01:13 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Nope, If the words "as is no warranty" appears on the bill of sale your completely and totally out of luck. Why is it the sellers fault that you failed to see issues with the car? Why can you not accept your own failure to completely check the vehicle before the purchase? I bought my current car with a broken odometer. Did I run back to the dealer screaming about how he misrepresented the car? No. Im an adult and I realized that I did not look to see if it was turning and it was my fault. On a 10+ year old car Im really not sure what the purpose of a PPI is. If you can't accept the mechanical surprises that might be waiting for you you should not be driving a used car. Even a perfect car that passes a PPI could have a catostrophic failure. My brand new 2002 Honda Accord shattered its clutch randomly at 17k miles. Robert Chase Mike Mangrum wrote: > I would NEVER buy a car without having a PPI. > > If someone missrepresents the condition of a car, or hides the fact > that there is something wrong with the car, then they are no better > than a thief. And a liar. > > I've purchased cars knowing there were things wrong with them because > I wanted a car and am willing to fix it. But I want to know what I am > getting into. > > There have been times that I have been suprised by previous owners > hiding mechanical or rust problems and when I discover them I would > like to pop the PO in the nose if I ran accross them. > > Are there were laws against these thiefs/liars? Because I would be > the one that would land in jail if I carried out my actions. > > */Robert Chase /* wrote: > > Alec, > > I am nice. I just don't like my time wasted. Used cars are a risk and > if some buyers are uncomfortable with the risk they should consider > buying new cars. I have my car regularly serviced and my mechanic > advises me of any issues I might have. A pre purchase inspection is a > very detailed inspection that involves a lot of items. If you took > 100 > random 10+ year old Mercedes on the market and did a PPI on them > maybee > 10 would pass with no problems found. > > So let me ask you what do you suggest the seller of a car needing > repairs do? Should they throw the car away? Should they just give it > away to the buyer because of a few repair items? Quite honestly there > are a lot of service jobs that can cost more than the fair market > value > of a car. A suspension overhaul on an older diesel 126 sedan can > easily > do this. > > The difference between a Mercedes enthusiast and a used car > destroyer is > just that. Someone who looks at a car as a financial venture is > not an > enthusiast (no matter what they may say to the contrary) and is > merely > assisting the used car market in deteriorating the existing cars > on the > market as they jump from car to car trying to play it cheap trying to > avoid that transmission or engine overhaul. While they may like the > make their obsession with their pocket book only serves to eliminate > perfectly good cars from existance because they were too cheap to > do the > repairs. Then again thats probably why all new cars are disposable > tin > cans these days. > > Most cars easily excede their original purchace price in service and > repairs throughout their lifetime. If you have ever looked at > Ferrari's > their service schedule can excede the value of the car in less than a > year depending on the milage the driver puts on the car. Cars like > that > only survive because their owners are willing to spend the money > to keep > them on the road. Imagine if you could see that 10 year old gullwing > being crushed because of cheap owner who did not want to repair the > transmission. > > Robert Chase > > > Alec Cordova wrote: > > >Shame on you, Robert. I thought you were nicer than that. > > > > > > > >>I have played the "let my mechanic look at it" game before. To be > >>honest with you its really just a game buyers commonly employ to > lower > >>the value of the car. > >> > >> > > > >Maybe this has been your experience, but I have paid for the eyes > of a > >competent mechanic because they know more than I do. As we have > discussed on > >this list many times, there are some repairs on older Benzes that > nearly > >exceed the value of the car, and the need for those repairs may > not be clear > >to someone who is not an expert. > > > >We almost bought a lovely W111 coupe many years ago, I think it > was a 1970 > >280SE. When we requested a PPI, the seller would not allow us to > drive the > >car to the mechanic (one of the three top MB mechanics in the > area, and > >known to be reputable), and the PPI revealed why. The > transmission was > >barely there, and the seller, who had to have known this > considering how bad > >the tranny was, had not chosen to disclose this. He was trying to > present > >the car as being something substantially other than what it > turned out to > >be. We paid and thanked our PPI mechanic and left that deal to > someone else. > > > >On another occasion, we repeatedly suggested that our potential > buyer get a > >PPI on the 85 Porsche 944 we were selling, although we were not > aware of any > >problems with this daily driver. He never got around to it, but > within two > >weeks he had to put about a thousand dollars into the clutch system. > >Granted, we saw him driving the car quite a bit more maliciously > than we had > >ever driven it, but a PPI may have uncovered this unknown > condition before > >the sale, and we would have negotiated further because of it. We > thought we > >were selling a car that would not need a thousand bucks within weeks, > >subject to the standard risks associated with any car, new or > used. Had a > >trained eye examined the car before the sale, we would have known > that our > >assumption was wrong, and that would have materially changed what > we were > >selling, necessarily affecting our asking price. > > > >On yet another occasion, while the PPI disclosed some basically > normal > >maintenance items coming up, like some suspension rubber, it actually > >convinced us even more that the car in question was worth the > asking price, > >because the engine, transmission, and climate control showed no > signs to an > >impartial third-party expert of their imminent demise. > > > >So PPIs from a hack or from too close a friend of the buyer may > be just > >gimmicks, please don't condemn PPIs from known, impartial, competent, > >reputable mechanics. I consider them similar to inspections > required on a > >house to get a loan for purchase. A good professional one can > simply provide > >a more complete picture of what one intends to buy, allowing a > more accurate > >determination of the value of the potential purchase to the potential > >purchaser. > > > >Alec > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:28:54 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] interesting 124 info a friend sent me a link about the 124: http://www.mbclubcanada.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11 john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:08:48 +0000 From: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net Subject: Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy I find the highest book value I can and work down from there... rarely do I go backwards on a deal. I don't buy something unless it's a bargain or it's something I really want and it's right. I paid pretty close to top dollar for my '91 300d because they're rarer than hen's teeth in these parts. I've had to make a number of repairs, but nothing major or serious or even unexpected. The car was well cared for. The seller wasn't willing to lower the price (much) either. :) I'm careful about what I buy and careful how I sell things. I'm fair with folks. I tell them right out what it would cost if I fixed it, and that they're going to pay more to have someone else do it. When I'm looking at a vehicle I don't really need, but kind of want I list out what it'll take to get the thing right, make an offer and walk away. Many times the seller will accept my offer... even when I bid low because I really don't want it... I looked at one Jeep pickup the guy was asking $1,350 for... I checked it out, found lots wrong and bid $250 never expecting the guy to take it... but he did... :) Then I had two problems... getting it home and explaining to my wife... ;) I think the fact that I go to extremes to point out the flaws makes it easier for everyone. I point out things that most mechanics wouldn't find. I still get what I'm asking and like I said, rarely go backwards. When I buy a used car I go through it and point out problems and what it'll cost me to fix it. If the car is priced fairly to start out with I won't negotiate it down, will just decide if it's something I have to have. :) I do understand your concern about taking a car to a mechanic... I've had shops break things on my vehicles as well. Usually a buyer doesn't bother with wanting to see a mechanic after they've crawled under and around a car with me. If they do, that's fine. If they find something serious in an old vehicle they can walk away if they want. I've done the math and will keep it before going backwards. :) When dealing with an older used car, like the 300TD that Jan got involved with, I don't expect the engine to be "tight". If it runs and the price is right I'm happy. I'd look at the book value in this case, the condition of the car and what it would cost to replace the engine if it went tango uniform. (tummy up... you know, like the goldfish floating upside down in a bowl). The value for me is in a clean, straight car since I don't do bodywork or paint... Engine swaps and repairs aren't as big of a deal, usually... of late it is, sold my shop crane and just don't have time... :( I remember selling a Jeep Cherokee that had a noticeable, very noticeable and loud engine knock... We started at full retail and deducted $1,500 for a replacement engine. The guy was quite happy. Never heard from him again, and if he went to a dealer to fix that thing he spent at least twice that much to fix it. I figured a junk yard engine and a mechanic to R&R it. He felt that was fair. For all we knew that engine could have run for years that way... I may never know... :) The point is when dealing with used cars it's expected they'll need something. The higher the price one pays the less repairs it should need. The seller should be as honest and open as possible. The only time I don't list faults is if I'm trading in a vehicle, which is very, very rare... I know the dealership will not pass along any info I share and they have a mechanic that will check it out... that and they're going to low ball me so bad anyway I don't care. I won't trade a car in unless it practically has to be towed in. I looked at a new car a while back for grins and what the dealership offered me on a trade in on my benz was a major insult. I can't believe people actually allow themselves to be ripped off that way... The key to getting a good buy is to find out who is trading in a car and offer them a bit more then what the dealership is. ;) john > John, > > Your short changing yourself then. Book price on used cars is for a car > in average condition. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 14:28:17 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy John, Your short changing yourself then. Book price on used cars is for a car in average condition. Your typical 10 year old car does not have everything functional. Some of this is taken into account in the book price especially for vehicles with discontinued parts (mostly common on domestic cars). Ten year old and older cars typically have problems that are unrepaired. Thats what sells new cars. If all the used cars on the market were "perfect" cars then there would be no demand for new cars other than the ego value. Buyers also have no concept of book value. They will try to negotiate the price of repairs off of your figure that already includes the allowances. I learned the hard way on not being negotiable on prices. I tend to agree with you on the price issue. Price it fairly and don't negotiate. When I get to a dealership and am able to leverage a considerable percentage of the value off the car easily I wonder if they would have been willing to rip me off without even thinking twice. Most car buyers are not that smart unfortunatly and have no idea what a fair price is. I had a 1989 Chevy S10 pickup truck that I inherited in my father's estate. It was a decent car and ran well but was "stripped" with vinal interior and manual transmission and 4 cylender engine. I priced the truck at $800 which was a steal to liquidate it quickly as I had several other cars to sell at the same time. When I would not negotiate price buyers walked in numbers. My phone rang off the hook with inquiries on it but no one would but the damn thing. I finally got disgusted with the damn thing and gave it to a friend who priced the car at $1100 and got $950 for it a day later. He felt guilty for selling the truck and gave me the $800 I was asking for originally which was a nice gesture. Robert Chase dieseljohn-at-comcast.net wrote: >When I'm selling a vehicle I attempt to identify every nit-picking >little flaw that I can find... then I take the blue book value, >retail or some high value, and then deduct the costs of fixing those >items, at least what it would cost me doing the work. Very rarely >do I have anyone complain or feel taken. It works well for me as >I save myself the trouble of fixing something and feel comfortable >about the transaction... I hate it when something I hadn't known about >comes up though... makes me feel bad for the buyer. But because >I attempted to be as honest as possible by identifying all the defects >rarely do they feel I tried to hide something. Used cars often >have surprises. I never have a problem with someone taking a car >to a mechanic to have it checked out. Rarely will I drop the price >on the car further then what I've estimated the repairs to be though. >If the car has that much trouble then I'll fix it to keep from going >backwards, or sell it as a fixer for a fair price. I'd rather have >someone find the problem before buying it and knowing rather then >coming back telling me about it later. If the mechanic doesn't find >it then it's unlikely anyone is going to blame me either. :) > >The car in Phoenix looks nice, except for the maroon interior. I'd >be interested in something like that as a fixer, for the right price. >Cars that look good but have a mechanical flaw are fine with me. It's >the ones that look bad with mechanical problems that are more trouble >then they're worth. :) > >Based on the feedback that the seller has I have a hunch that >you'll get your deposit back without too much pain and suffering. > >I prefer to stick with Jeeps and 4x4's... they have value if they >are still in one piece, multiple pieces, run, barely run or whatever... >cars on the other hand are a lot harder to deal with... ;) > >john > > > >>Hi Jan, >> >>Sorry if this was expensive for you. I forget if you were original victim >>in this thread. >> >>Robert is right; 'Buyer Beware' is an old saw, its value proven over time. >>While it may be regrettable that others do not share exactly our own sense >>of honor, it may be inevitable. It's good that, more often than not, they >>are close. The saying applies not only when a seller is trying to defraud >>but also when seller has best of intentions but is ignorant of actual >>condition of product. >> >>If this seller was doing so because of financial distress (not uncommon >>these days) the refund may be slow in coming. Am glad the loss was >>minimized by insisting on a PPI. >> >>Sam >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On >>Behalf Of Jan Guthrie >>Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:00 AM >>Cc: Robert Chase; Jeremy Bowne; dieseljohn-at-comcast.net; Diesel Benz List >>(E-mail); Mercedes Diesel list >> >> > > > >>Subject: Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy >> >>Robert ........ >>I guess I find it interesting that you think disclosing *the whole truth* >>about the car would *unfairly* ????? lower the value of the car. >> >>And I think it is an issue with him. He *is* selling the car for "some" >>reason. And he wants to get as much for it as he can. And IMHO disclosing >>the whole truth would very fairly lower the true value of the car as opposed >>to the perceived value on a car with an assumed "good" engine. He may NOT >>have known about the low compression on the first auction, but now he does. >> >>I also find it interesting that you say first "BUYER BEWARE" and "if you >>don't check the car its your fault" and then state that you won't let >>someone have the car inspected. I cannot imagine a true professional >>mechanic leaving his shop and coming out to your house to *drive the car*. >>So by definition you seem to be limiting your definition of mechanic to "my >> >> > > > >>brother who works on cars at night" type of mechanic. Some of us don't >>have one of those. ;^) >> >>So by not letting them get the car inspected, you are then asking them to >>trust you???? >> >>There is a huge difference between nitpicking every small detail and finding >>out if the car needs a new engine. >> >>If the seller does not want to let me find out *exactly* what I am buying >>..... I will go spend my money elsewhere. >> >>Jan Guthrie >>1985 300TD >> >> >>Robert Chase wrote: >> >> >> >>>It might not be an issue to him. The car does run. To be honest I >>>would probably not put it in if I were selling the car as to not scare >>>off buyers and unfairly lower his value on the car. When buying a used >>>car it is BUYER BEWARE! If you don't check the car its your fault. I >>>have always refused allowing my vehicles being sold to be taken to >>>mechanics for this exact reason. They are welcome to let their >>>mechanics come and drive the car but on a 10+ year old vehicle there is >>> >>> > > > >>>always something wrong. Someone who wants to nitpick every small detail >>>should be buying a new car and not a preowned. >>> >>>Robert Chase >>> >>>Jeremy Bowne wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>In the new listing I don't see anything about low compression. >>>>If he was honest you'd think he would put that there. >>>>This guy seems like a car salesman... >>>> >>>>Jeremy >>>> >>>> >>-- >> >>$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x,88,x$:0^0:$x$:0^0:$x,88,x$: >> >>Jan >>Jan Guthrie Yacht Brokerage >>jan-at-buy-a-boat.com >>262-553-1998 >>http://www.buy-a-boat.com ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1412 **********************************