From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Mon Apr 12 17:21:54 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Monday, April 12 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1413 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] 6 Cyl 1995 D Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy Re: [db] 6 Cyl 1995 D [db] Re: used car adventures (was the phoenix benz, now the phoenix benz... ;) Re: [db] 6 Cyl 1995 D Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:30:53 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: [db] 6 Cyl 1995 D While a car like that may need some money invested into replacing worn out suspension/driveline rubber parts or our beloved automatic climate control, that car+motor+transmission are known to give 250 or 300 thousand miles of service quite often, sometimes even more. There are a couple of subsystems whose repair costs could be very expensive, so you may wish to get a professional prepurchase inspection performed by a reputable mechanic very familiar with these cars. Your local MB dealership may even be sufficient. This may (or may not, if you ask Robert) give you a greater degree of confidence that these major systems are not likely to need large infusions of capital right away, and it should give you some information on what maintenance costs you should plan for, since virtually any 9 year old car could benefit from some maintenance. These cars, and the diesel motor in particular, actually tend to hold up better if they are used regularly, so a 95 with 140K (averaging near 15K miles/year) could really be a more reliable car now than a 95 with only 50 or 60K, even if that sounds counterintuitive. Either way, good luck. Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 168K > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of John Peterson > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:02 AM > To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: [db] 6 Cyl 1995 D > > > I'm looking to buy my first Diesel, a 1995 E300D with 140k. I'm > uncomfortable > buying a car with such high miles. Does anyone have this car and > have they > had good luck with it? Are there any specific issues with this 6 cyl? > > It's a 1995, E300D, 1 owner, 140k, good overall condition. $9900. By > northeast standards this seems like a good price- opinions? I'll > post pics > when I get them. > > Should I order a compression or tranny test? > > Thanks all, I look forward to contributing to the board when I > finally land a > diesel. > > John Peterson > Rhode Island ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:24:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Mangrum Subject: Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy I was talking about purposely hiding, either by not revealing or covering up, problems with a car to get the money. To me a person who does this is a thief and a liar. I understand the risks with purchasing a used car. I just don't like to be ripped off by a liar and a thief. Makes me angry. A PPI is money well spent to smoke out liars and thieves. Or if the seller really does not know the car has problems. Of course in that case it is not the sellers fault. Either way I don't want to end up with a money pit. And yes, it would be my fault if I did not "see issues with the car." Since I am not a professional mechanic, and I don't know all issues with every car, I have a professional who knows the particular car do an inspection. "as is no warranty" is no excuse to purposely rip someone off. Robert Chase wrote: Nope, If the words "as is no warranty" appears on the bill of sale your completely and totally out of luck. Why is it the sellers fault that you failed to see issues with the car? Why can you not accept your own failure to completely check the vehicle before the purchase? I bought my current car with a broken odometer. Did I run back to the dealer screaming about how he misrepresented the car? No. Im an adult and I realized that I did not look to see if it was turning and it was my fault. On a 10+ year old car Im really not sure what the purpose of a PPI is. If you can't accept the mechanical surprises that might be waiting for you you should not be driving a used car. Even a perfect car that passes a PPI could have a catostrophic failure. My brand new 2002 Honda Accord shattered its clutch randomly at 17k miles. Robert Chase Mike Mangrum wrote: > I would NEVER buy a car without having a PPI. > > If someone missrepresents the condition of a car, or hides the fact > that there is something wrong with the car, then they are no better > than a thief. And a liar. > > I've purchased cars knowing there were things wrong with them because > I wanted a car and am willing to fix it. But I want to know what I am > getting into. > > There have been times that I have been suprised by previous owners > hiding mechanical or rust problems and when I discover them I would > like to pop the PO in the nose if I ran accross them. > > Are there were laws against these thiefs/liars? Because I would be > the one that would land in jail if I carried out my actions. > > */Robert Chase /* wrote: > > Alec, > > I am nice. I just don't like my time wasted. Used cars are a risk and > if some buyers are uncomfortable with the risk they should consider > buying new cars. I have my car regularly serviced and my mechanic > advises me of any issues I might have. A pre purchase inspection is a > very detailed inspection that involves a lot of items. If you took > 100 > random 10+ year old Mercedes on the market and did a PPI on them > maybee > 10 would pass with no problems found. > > So let me ask you what do you suggest the seller of a car needing > repairs do? Should they throw the car away? Should they just give it > away to the buyer because of a few repair items? Quite honestly there > are a lot of service jobs that can cost more than the fair market > value > of a car. A suspension overhaul on an older diesel 126 sedan can > easily > do this. > > The difference between a Mercedes enthusiast and a used car > destroyer is > just that. Someone who looks at a car as a financial venture is > not an > enthusiast (no matter what they may say to the contrary) and is > merely > assisting the used car market in deteriorating the existing cars > on the > market as they jump from car to car trying to play it cheap trying to > avoid that transmission or engine overhaul. While they may like the > make their obsession with their pocket book only serves to eliminate > perfectly good cars from existance because they were too cheap to > do the > repairs. Then again thats probably why all new cars are disposable > tin > cans these days. > > Most cars easily excede their original purchace price in service and > repairs throughout their lifetime. If you have ever looked at > Ferrari's > their service schedule can excede the value of the car in less than a > year depending on the milage the driver puts on the car. Cars like > that > only survive because their owners are willing to spend the money > to keep > them on the road. Imagine if you could see that 10 year old gullwing > being crushed because of cheap owner who did not want to repair the > transmission. > > Robert Chase > > > Alec Cordova wrote: > > >Shame on you, Robert. I thought you were nicer than that. > > > > > > > >>I have played the "let my mechanic look at it" game before. To be > >>honest with you its really just a game buyers commonly employ to > lower > >>the value of the car. > >> > >> > > > >Maybe this has been your experience, but I have paid for the eyes > of a > >competent mechanic because they know more than I do. As we have > discussed on > >this list many times, there are some repairs on older Benzes that > nearly > >exceed the value of the car, and the need for those repairs may > not be clear > >to someone who is not an expert. > > > >We almost bought a lovely W111 coupe many years ago, I think it > was a 1970 > >280SE. When we requested a PPI, the seller would not allow us to > drive the > >car to the mechanic (one of the three top MB mechanics in the > area, and > >known to be reputable), and the PPI revealed why. The > transmission was > >barely there, and the seller, who had to have known this > considering how bad > >the tranny was, had not chosen to disclose this. He was trying to > present > >the car as being something substantially other than what it > turned out to > >be. We paid and thanked our PPI mechanic and left that deal to > someone else. > > > >On another occasion, we repeatedly suggested that our potential > buyer get a > >PPI on the 85 Porsche 944 we were selling, although we were not > aware of any > >problems with this daily driver. He never got around to it, but > within two > >weeks he had to put about a thousand dollars into the clutch system. > >Granted, we saw him driving the car quite a bit more maliciously > than we had > >ever driven it, but a PPI may have uncovered this unknown > condition before > >the sale, and we would have negotiated further because of it. We > thought we > >were selling a car that would not need a thousand bucks within weeks, > >subject to the standard risks associated with any car, new or > used. Had a > >trained eye examined the car before the sale, we would have known > that our > >assumption was wrong, and that would have materially changed what > we were > >selling, necessarily affecting our asking price. > > > >On yet another occasion, while the PPI disclosed some basically > normal > >maintenance items coming up, like some suspension rubber, it actually > >convinced us even more that the car in question was worth the > asking price, > >because the engine, transmission, and climate control showed no > signs to an > >impartial third-party expert of their imminent demise. > > > >So PPIs from a hack or from too close a friend of the buyer may > be just > >gimmicks, please don't condemn PPIs from known, impartial, competent, > >reputable mechanics. I consider them similar to inspections > required on a > >house to get a loan for purchase. A good professional one can > simply provide > >a more complete picture of what one intends to buy, allowing a > more accurate > >determination of the value of the potential purchase to the potential > >purchaser. > > > >Alec > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:47:05 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] Re: [DIESEL] the 87 300TD in Phoenis ...is back on eBAy John, You don't think that electrical fire you had was unexpected or serious? Robert Chase dieseljohn-at-comcast.net wrote: >I find the highest book value I can and work down from there... rarely >do I go backwards on a deal. I don't buy something unless it's a bargain >or it's something I really want and it's right. I paid pretty close >to top dollar for my '91 300d because they're rarer than hen's teeth in these parts. I've had to make a number of repairs, but nothing major or serious >or even unexpected. The car was well cared for. The seller wasn't willing >to lower the price (much) either. :) > >I'm careful about what I buy and careful how I sell things. I'm fair >with folks. I tell them right out what it would cost if I fixed it, >and that they're going to pay more to have someone else do it. > >When I'm looking at a vehicle I don't really need, but kind of want >I list out what it'll take to get the thing right, make an offer and walk >away. Many times the seller will accept my offer... even when I bid low >because I really don't want it... I looked at one Jeep pickup the >guy was asking $1,350 for... I checked it out, found lots wrong and >bid $250 never expecting the guy to take it... but he did... :) Then >I had two problems... getting it home and explaining to my wife... ;) > >I think the fact that I go to extremes to point out the flaws makes it >easier for everyone. I point out things that most mechanics wouldn't >find. I still get what I'm asking and like I said, rarely go backwards. > >When I buy a used car I go through it and point out problems and what >it'll cost me to fix it. If the car is priced fairly to start out with >I won't negotiate it down, will just decide if it's something I have to have. :) > >I do understand your concern about taking a car to a mechanic... I've >had shops break things on my vehicles as well. Usually a buyer doesn't >bother with wanting to see a mechanic after they've crawled under and around >a car with me. If they do, that's fine. If they find something serious >in an old vehicle they can walk away if they want. I've done the math and >will keep it before going backwards. :) > >When dealing with an older used car, like the 300TD that Jan got involved >with, I don't expect the engine to be "tight". If it runs and the price >is right I'm happy. I'd look at the book value in this case, the condition >of the car and what it would cost to replace the engine if it went tango >uniform. (tummy up... you know, like the goldfish floating upside down >in a bowl). The value for me is in a clean, straight car since I don't >do bodywork or paint... Engine swaps and repairs aren't as big of a deal, >usually... of late it is, sold my shop crane and just don't have time... :( > >I remember selling a Jeep Cherokee that had a noticeable, very noticeable and loud engine knock... We started at full retail and deducted $1,500 for a replacement engine. The guy was quite happy. Never heard from him again, and if he went to a dealer to fix that thing he spent at least twice that much to fix it. I figured a junk yard engine and a mechanic to R&R it. He felt that was fair. For all we knew that engine could have run for years that way... I may never know... :) > >The point is when dealing with used cars it's expected they'll need something. >The higher the price one pays the less repairs it should need. The seller should be as honest and open as possible. The only time I don't list faults >is if I'm trading in a vehicle, which is very, very rare... I know the dealership will not pass along any info I share and they have a mechanic that will check it out... that and they're going to low ball me so bad anyway I >don't care. I won't trade a car in unless it practically has to be towed in. > >I looked at a new car a while back for grins and what the dealership offered me >on a trade in on my benz was a major insult. I can't believe people actually >allow themselves to be ripped off that way... The key to getting a good buy >is to find out who is trading in a car and offer them a bit more then what >the dealership is. ;) > >john > > >>John, >> >>Your short changing yourself then. Book price on used cars is for a car >>in average condition. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 13:24:37 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] 6 Cyl 1995 D On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 11:01:40AM -0400, John Peterson wrote: > I'm looking to buy my first Diesel, a 1995 E300D with 140k. I'm uncomfortable > buying a car with such high miles. Does anyone have this car and have they > had good luck with it? Are there any specific issues with this 6 cyl? That six cylinder is unlike the other six cylinder that some people on this list have grown accustomed to - that has the new OM606. People on this list with supertankers, or the elusive 87 300D have the OM603, which seemed to go away when Mercedes had a few problems with rods bending and engines dying in the 3.5L version. Anyways, the 606 is a dual cam six banger. I don't recall the 95 having a turbo, but either way, the horsepower figure for the non-turbo 606 was only about ten horse off the TURBO 617. It'll go down the road quite nicely, but you may find that it doesn't appreciate you running the AC while trying to keep up with traffic on a long, steep grade (siskyou pass, the grapevine, donner pass, etc). The 95 was the last year of the w124 body, so it is the pinnacle of refinement and creature comforts for the w124. The w124 is also one of the last body styles from Mercedes that is easy for a DIY person to keep maintained. 95 w124s were almost all loaded to the gills with creature comforts and safety equipment. 140k for a Mercedes diesel is nothing. Given proper oil changes, it will easily give another 100k without even batting an eye. Most diesels on this list are somewhere over 200k miles, with a good number approaching 300k. > It's a 1995, E300D, 1 owner, 140k, good overall condition. $9900. By > northeast standards this seems like a good price- opinions? I'll post pics > when I get them. That sounds like a very good price for one of those, especially with that low of miles. > Should I order a compression or tranny test? What I would recommend doing is taking (or having the owner take) the car to a Mercedes dealer, and giving them the hundred bucks for an inspection. This will identify anything currently wrong with the car, things that may go wrong with the car in the near future, and ensure all (if any) recally work was done on the car. When buying a Mercedes, where bringing a neglected example back to life can be ungodly expensive, $100 is cheap insurance in the grand scheme of things, especially in something modern. Having a box full of receipts will make the car far more attractive, as it will be proof that the owner took care of the car. The owner of this list owns a (96) E300D with an OM606, he can undoubtedly give better information than I can. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:06:40 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: [db] Re: used car adventures (was the phoenix benz, now the phoenix benz... ;) None the less, I bet you were not expecting smoke to be pouring out of your dashboard. Robert Chase dieseljohn-at-comcast.net wrote: >Actually, the electrical fire was the result of trying to save >$20 on the aux. heater pump... replaced the pump with a bosch >and the computer and all is fine... won't deal with that vendor >again... although he did try to make it right... I've heard of >others using aftermarket aux water pumps w/o trouble... :( > >my '91 is doing quite well... very happy with it. around 30mpg >in town and actually seen almost 38mpg on the freeway... > >john >----------- > >John, > >You don't think that electrical fire you had was unexpected or serious? > > >Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:29:57 -0500 From: "Kaleb C. Striplin" Subject: Re: [db] 6 Cyl 1995 D Those non turbos has 130 some horsepower, not sure of exact figure, think 135 or so. Pretty good considering it doenst have a turbo on it. Kevin Pekarek wrote: > On Mon, Apr 12, 2004 at 11:01:40AM -0400, John Peterson wrote: > >>I'm looking to buy my first Diesel, a 1995 E300D with 140k. I'm uncomfortable >>buying a car with such high miles. Does anyone have this car and have they >>had good luck with it? Are there any specific issues with this 6 cyl? > > > That six cylinder is unlike the other six cylinder that some people on this > list have grown accustomed to - that has the new OM606. People on this list > with supertankers, or the elusive 87 300D have the OM603, which seemed to go > away when Mercedes had a few problems with rods bending and engines dying > in the 3.5L version. > > Anyways, the 606 is a dual cam six banger. I don't recall the 95 having a > turbo, but either way, the horsepower figure for the non-turbo 606 was only > about ten horse off the TURBO 617. It'll go down the road quite nicely, but > you may find that it doesn't appreciate you running the AC while trying to > keep up with traffic on a long, steep grade (siskyou pass, the grapevine, > donner pass, etc). The 95 was the last year of the w124 body, so it is the > pinnacle of refinement and creature comforts for the w124. The w124 is also > one of the last body styles from Mercedes that is easy for a DIY person > to keep maintained. 95 w124s were almost all loaded to the gills with creature > comforts and safety equipment. > > 140k for a Mercedes diesel is nothing. Given proper oil changes, it will > easily give another 100k without even batting an eye. Most diesels on this > list are somewhere over 200k miles, with a good number approaching 300k. > > >>It's a 1995, E300D, 1 owner, 140k, good overall condition. $9900. By >>northeast standards this seems like a good price- opinions? I'll post pics >>when I get them. > > > That sounds like a very good price for one of those, especially with that > low of miles. > > >>Should I order a compression or tranny test? > > > What I would recommend doing is taking (or having the owner take) the car to > a Mercedes dealer, and giving them the hundred bucks for an inspection. This > will identify anything currently wrong with the car, things that may go wrong > with the car in the near future, and ensure all (if any) recally work was done > on the car. When buying a Mercedes, where bringing a neglected example back > to life can be ungodly expensive, $100 is cheap insurance in the grand scheme > of things, especially in something modern. Having a box full of receipts will > make the car far more attractive, as it will be proof that the owner took care > of the car. > > The owner of this list owns a (96) E300D with an OM606, he can undoubtedly > give better information than I can. > > K > - -- Kaleb C. Striplin/ Claremore, OK Mercedes-Benz Club of America Member Since 1991 MBZ.org Diesel/LL/123/124 List Administrator 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 87 300SDL #2, 85 380SE, 84 380SE, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D Parts Cars: 84 300TD, 84 300D, 82 240D, 81 300SD, 81 300TD, 79 240D, 78 300SD, 78 300D, 77 300D, 76 300D, 75 240D, 75 240D ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1413 **********************************