From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Thu Apr 22 16:57:31 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Thursday, April 22 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1428 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: [db] Re: what is this? [db] question on Range Rovers - need opinions... :) Re: [db] question on Range Rovers - need opinions... :) Re: [db] question on Range Rovers - need opinions... :) Re: [db] question on Range Rovers - need opinions... :) Re: [db] question on Range Rovers - need opinions... :) Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:39:34 -0500 From: DanG Subject: [db] Re: what is this? > > > EVIL EVIL EVIL I SAY! > > > > > > Nice cars.... !!!!!!!!! > > > > > > Robert. > > > > or try this site > > http://www.mb300club.com/ > > and if you really want, go to groups.yahoo.com and search for 300club > > > > And, Jim Hoffman - maybe you come to the 300club git together in > Whitewater, WI since that is just down the road from you? > > DanG ChiTownArea > > Dan! Will you be there?? You don't have a 300d do you? > > Jim/ In boxes and all apart. A decent TX car in terms of rust, but it takes more moola than I have plus more energy than I seem to muster lately. Yes, I will plan to attend, but these things usually get a bit too high brow for me - you are welcome to join in when activities are firmed up and you can see what you are deciding upon. DanG '81 240D with clutch, '60 300d with clutch in boxes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:49:48 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] question on Range Rovers - need opinions... :) A good friend of mine offered his '98 Range Rover 4.0L V8 with 68,000 miles on it to me today. He bought it new and has taken incredible care of it. I've driven it before and we all drove up to BC with it... quiet, smooth, wonderful... controls are a bit odd though... took me a long time to figure out how to open windows and such... (guess I'll need to RTM, eh?) It's tempting... Need to replace the '99 WJ we sold last year, but I know little about the Land/Range Rovers. Well, I know that the V8 is a derivative of the Buick Aluminum V8 from the early '60's... They seem to have a following... I just never went down that path... mainly been SJ,XJ,WJ and Diesel Benz kind of guy... ;) This thing is fully loaded... absolutely no problems... only ONE scratch - on the tailgate... ;) The only thing is the color, kind of dark red... (even Edmunds deducts $76 for it... rofl...) Anyway, I'm clueless about Rovers and British vehicles... Need help from my friends on the list(s). This will be my wife's vehicle. It has to be reliable. Economy isn't as critical (it's rated 14/17, but I think switching it over to amsoil synthetics throughout should get it to at least 20mpg on the freeway if I keep my foot out of the injectors. :) My WJ went from 18 to 21... Would really appreciate input, comments, sarcasism, humor, votes of confidence, warnings to run for cover, horror stories, and so on... I know that an older WJ Grand Cherokee will have repair issues too... this Range Rover is perfect. I'm tempted to not replace a Jeep with a Jeep here folks... (My J10 might be done this year... ;) So keep me on the straight and narrow if venturing off is gonna be one of those expensive nightmares... My friend has never had a single problem with this thing and it's got almost 70k on it... I think Rube Goldberg was on the design team though... I have read articles that mention that the controls are in Klingon. :) What's funny is this thing is a British vehicle, but he's never had trouble with the electrics when it rains... which is often... so when did that myth evaporate? :) later, john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:17:00 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] question on Range Rovers - need opinions... :) John, I would suggest avoiding a 1998. Range Rovers are on the same level as Volvos and simply love their service appointments at the dealership. Additionally this vehicle is OBD-II equipped and out of general prinipal I avoid anything made after 1996 becase of this. I have a couple friends with late model Range Rovers. They love their cars but admit they are far from being reliable. Check some parts prices but be sure to be sitting down before you do it. If you want a Range Rover try one of the earlier models such as a early 1990's Country or other older model. An interesting thought. The Range Rover's strong point is the coil spring suspension and chassis. One of its weak points is its electricals and drivetrain. I wonder how nice a OM-617 powered Range Rover would be. That my friend would be a vehicle worthy of a Mercedes Engine. You can get an older Country for as little as $2500. A wee bit cheaper than what your friend is probably asking for his 1998. Robert Chase john wrote: >A good friend of mine offered his '98 Range Rover 4.0L V8 >with 68,000 miles on it to me today. He bought it new and >has taken incredible care of it. I've driven it before and >we all drove up to BC with it... quiet, smooth, wonderful... >controls are a bit odd though... took me a long time to figure >out how to open windows and such... (guess I'll need to RTM, eh?) > >It's tempting... Need to replace the '99 WJ we sold last >year, but I know little about the Land/Range Rovers. Well, I >know that the V8 is a derivative of the Buick Aluminum V8 >from the early '60's... They seem to have a following... >I just never went down that path... mainly been SJ,XJ,WJ >and Diesel Benz kind of guy... ;) > >This thing is fully loaded... absolutely no problems... only >ONE scratch - on the tailgate... ;) The only thing is >the color, kind of dark red... (even Edmunds deducts $76 for >it... rofl...) > >Anyway, I'm clueless about Rovers and British vehicles... >Need help from my friends on the list(s). > >This will be my wife's vehicle. It has to be reliable. >Economy isn't as critical (it's rated 14/17, but I think >switching it over to amsoil synthetics throughout should >get it to at least 20mpg on the freeway if I keep my >foot out of the injectors. :) My WJ went from 18 to 21... > >Would really appreciate input, comments, sarcasism, humor, >votes of confidence, warnings to run for cover, horror stories, >and so on... I know that an older WJ Grand Cherokee will have >repair issues too... this Range Rover is perfect. I'm >tempted to not replace a Jeep with a Jeep here folks... (My >J10 might be done this year... ;) So keep me on the straight >and narrow if venturing off is gonna be one of those expensive >nightmares... > >My friend has never had a single problem with this thing >and it's got almost 70k on it... I think Rube Goldberg >was on the design team though... I have read articles that >mention that the controls are in Klingon. :) > >What's funny is this thing is a British vehicle, but he's >never had trouble with the electrics when it rains... which >is often... so when did that myth evaporate? :) > >later, >john > > ---- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:28:37 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] question on Range Rovers - need opinions... :) Decided to check on recalls... only 99 service bulletins... about 20 of those are just manual updates and misc. non-problem gunk. http://www.alldata.com/TSB/68/98680708.html As a reality check I looked at the '99 WJ (first year and I had one.. high miles even) it had 145 bulletins, 2 safety, 1 emission... http://www.alldata.com/TSB/04/990418EQ.html looks like most of those are real problems too... thanx for the input... this will take some thought... :) (since we have no money this won't take a lot of thought... ;) The Rovers have an american designed V8, a ZF tranny... not sure on the xfr case, for some reason I have a hunch it's a borg warner - full time... I have another friend selling an older Rover, also in excellent condition... never really considered these things before... both friends haven't had any of the problems you described... been searching on the web, have found a few folks with a very sour experience with these things... but overall it seems pretty positive... research continues... :) john On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Robert Chase wrote: >-->John, >--> >-->I would suggest avoiding a 1998. Range Rovers are on the same level as >-->Volvos and simply love their service appointments at the dealership. >-->Additionally this vehicle is OBD-II equipped and out of general prinipal >-->I avoid anything made after 1996 becase of this. I have a couple >-->friends with late model Range Rovers. They love their cars but admit >-->they are far from being reliable. Check some parts prices but be sure >-->to be sitting down before you do it. >--> >-->If you want a Range Rover try one of the earlier models such as a early >-->1990's Country or other older model. An interesting thought. The Range >-->Rover's strong point is the coil spring suspension and chassis. One of >-->its weak points is its electricals and drivetrain. I wonder how nice a >-->OM-617 powered Range Rover would be. That my friend would be a vehicle >-->worthy of a Mercedes Engine. You can get an older Country for as little >-->as $2500. A wee bit cheaper than what your friend is probably asking >-->for his 1998. >--> >-->Robert Chase >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:44:45 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] question on Range Rovers - need opinions... :) On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 03:49:48PM -0700, john wrote: > A good friend of mine offered his '98 Range Rover 4.0L V8 > with 68,000 miles on it to me today. He bought it new and > has taken incredible care of it. I've driven it before and > we all drove up to BC with it... quiet, smooth, wonderful... > controls are a bit odd though... took me a long time to figure > out how to open windows and such... (guess I'll need to RTM, eh?) That is my favorite series of Range Rover, and one of these days, I hope to have space in the stable for such a steed. But, I have other daily drivers, other trucks, other 4x4s, so if it pisses me off, it sits until we are on speaking terms. > It's tempting... Need to replace the '99 WJ we sold last > year, but I know little about the Land/Range Rovers. Well, I > know that the V8 is a derivative of the Buick Aluminum V8 > from the early '60's... They seem to have a following... > I just never went down that path... mainly been SJ,XJ,WJ > and Diesel Benz kind of guy... ;) It is far removed from the old starfire 215 v8. The 98, even though it also displaces 3.9 liters like the older rover engines, is distributorless and heavily computerized. Rovers off road are famous for getting dust in the idle control so that they idle at somewhere around 1600 rpm or so until you've shot it with WD-40. It is still all aluminum, and any of the sensors going out can have you hunting for a new head/block/engine/etc when you blow a head gasket. > This will be my wife's vehicle. It has to be reliable. > Economy isn't as critical (it's rated 14/17, but I think > switching it over to amsoil synthetics throughout should > get it to at least 20mpg on the freeway if I keep my > foot out of the injectors. :) My WJ went from 18 to 21... Dream on. That 4.0L v8 is extremely underpowered for that heavy of a vehicle. Range rovers are tankers - they easily weigh as much as my 77 6.6L cherokee. Your 300D will blow the doors off it out of the hole, and it will struggle to keep up with your two bazillion original mile 87 XJ. But, it has class that is undeniable. The 14/17 rating for mileage was extremely optimistic. > Would really appreciate input, comments, sarcasism, humor, > votes of confidence, warnings to run for cover, horror stories, > and so on... I know that an older WJ Grand Cherokee will have > repair issues too... this Range Rover is perfect. I'm > tempted to not replace a Jeep with a Jeep here folks... (My > J10 might be done this year... ;) So keep me on the straight > and narrow if venturing off is gonna be one of those expensive > nightmares... Okay, here you go. - The power steering box WILL ALWAYS LEAK. They did from the factory. If it doesn't leak now, then either it will tomorrow because someone spent a fortune on it yesterday, or the fluid just isn't hitting the ground yet. - Servicing the transmission needs to be done at the dealer, because you need the special dealer tool to SPREAD THE FRAME APART so the x-member can come out of the way of the pan. - Surprisingly, under the hood is mostly bosch instead of lucas. This means replacement will still be expensive, but won't be near as frequent. - The suspension is air bags, no longer coils. While they are smoother on road, and amazing off road, when they leak, you are in for serious expense. And if the computer controlling the ride height segfaults, you're riding home on the bump stops. And if for some reason the ride height sensor at one of the four corners freaks out or fails, the computer puts its head firmly up its rear and may require expensive (think a couple thousand dollar) replacement. - regardless of the receiver hitch or the use of one as a tow vehicle in "The Horse Whisperer", your XJ probably does better as a tow vehicle in the power department. The transmission (a ZF) is pretty solid, and the transfercase has a viscous coupling, which is a lot nicer than the noisy gear drive one in the discovery. I *THINK* putting it into 4L gives you the option of what would behave like a manual valve body, don't remember when that came into being. Axles are 3.54s, with a dropout third member like a toyota. Transfercase has a 1.21:1 (or so) HIGH range. Low range is somewhere in the threes. Nothing is better than a range rover (for a factory stock vehicle) for crusing down rutted or washboard roads. You will have to learn how to four wheel while hauling ass, drinking tea, and eating crumpets because you can actually get away with it in a range rover :) IMO (which really isn't humble), you may be better off finding a WJ. It might be more expensive up front, but - you already like WJs A LOT - your wife already likes WJs - they're not overly maintenance happy like a british vehicle can be - they have better acceleration and mileage - parts and labor are much cheaper on a jeep than a rover. But, if like me you don't care if the car has downtime because you can just drive something else when it is either not reliable enough or too expensive to deal with right now, go for it. They're awesome cars. > My friend has never had a single problem with this thing > and it's got almost 70k on it... I think Rube Goldberg > was on the design team though... I have read articles that > mention that the controls are in Klingon. :) There's some wonkiness, but it isn't too bad. Just incredibly expensive. > What's funny is this thing is a British vehicle, but he's > never had trouble with the electrics when it rains... which > is often... so when did that myth evaporate? :) The car is probably just used to it :) I highly recommend visiting www.rangerovers.net and reading the checklist of what to look for. That will be a second generation, aka "4.0/4.6". That page will also give you an idea of what you are in for. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:47:05 -0400 From: Robert Chase Subject: Re: [db] question on Range Rovers - need opinions... :) Good luck!, I still think the 617 powered Country would be a fun car. Another car to consider for your wife that is CHEAP is a 1995 Jaguar XJ6. Its pre OBDII and looks just like the newer more expensive ones. 1995 is after the time that Ford came in and kicked Jag's suppliers in the can for bad quality. For about $4500 your wife can have a car that looks like a $50k car. Parts are not cheap for the XJ6's but they are somewhat reliable. And with your technical abilities I doubt it will see the Jag dealer too often if ever again. I have driven one of these cars and wish I fit in it correctly. They are smooth and powerful and handle like they are on rails. The problem I have is I am so tall I have to let the seat all the way back and the center pillar rubs my elbow. Robert Chase john wrote: >Decided to check on recalls... >only 99 service bulletins... about 20 of those are just >manual updates and misc. non-problem gunk. > http://www.alldata.com/TSB/68/98680708.html > >As a reality check I looked at the '99 WJ (first >year and I had one.. high miles even) > it had 145 bulletins, 2 safety, 1 emission... > http://www.alldata.com/TSB/04/990418EQ.html >looks like most of those are real problems too... > >thanx for the input... this will take some thought... :) >(since we have no money this won't take a lot of thought... ;) > >The Rovers have an american designed V8, a ZF tranny... not >sure on the xfr case, for some reason I have a hunch it's a >borg warner - full time... I have another friend selling >an older Rover, also in excellent condition... > >never really considered these things before... both friends >haven't had any of the problems you described... been searching >on the web, have found a few folks with a very sour experience >with these things... but overall it seems pretty positive... > >research continues... :) > >john > > >On Thu, 22 Apr 2004, Robert Chase wrote: > > > >>-->John, >>--> >>-->I would suggest avoiding a 1998. Range Rovers are on the same level as >>-->Volvos and simply love their service appointments at the dealership. >>-->Additionally this vehicle is OBD-II equipped and out of general prinipal >>-->I avoid anything made after 1996 becase of this. I have a couple >>-->friends with late model Range Rovers. They love their cars but admit >>-->they are far from being reliable. Check some parts prices but be sure >>-->to be sitting down before you do it. >>--> >>-->If you want a Range Rover try one of the earlier models such as a early >>-->1990's Country or other older model. An interesting thought. The Range >>-->Rover's strong point is the coil spring suspension and chassis. One of >>-->its weak points is its electricals and drivetrain. I wonder how nice a >>-->OM-617 powered Range Rover would be. That my friend would be a vehicle >>-->worthy of a Mercedes Engine. You can get an older Country for as little >>-->as $2500. A wee bit cheaper than what your friend is probably asking >>-->for his 1998. >>--> >>-->Robert Chase >>--> >> >> > > ---- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1428 **********************************