diesel-benz-digest Monday, May 17 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1458 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Tinted windows? Re: [db] Hmmmm Re: [db] Hmmmm RE: [db] Hmmmm Re: [db] fuel prices Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 10:00:51 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Tinted windows? My friend that's restoring my '83 J10 claims to have found some window tinting that changes with sunlight... since sunlight is in relatively short supply here in Western Washington it has a strong appeal... I'll look into what it is... I may have it installed in my '91 300d before I head down to sunny CA in June... :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 10:09:12 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Hmmmm Tom, Great input! You've identified a number of issues and ignorances... If a Diesel owner "tweaks" his pump a bit to take off faster, it'll belch smoke like crazy... I know of a few truckers out here that used to do that... doesn't seem to be done much any more... but they claimed it helped them get going easier... just by providing more fuel in the advance or whatever... I'm not sure, but I think they require some of the smaller dump trucks to pass a tailpipe opacity test here... I'll look into it. The damage that the ignorance of the 'green' hippy types have done to our country based on their flawed world view is incredible... truth and objectivity be damned... they know better... like the chicken littles with the global warming nonsense about R12... freon is heavier then air and inert... how does it get to the stratosphere??? they can't explain it... neither do they acknowledge that all of man's chlorine based pollutions since the industrial age began account for less then ONE volcanic erruption... these people have an agenda not based in objective science... :( john On Sat, 15 May 2004, Thomas J. Harais wrote: >>-->Robert Chase wrote: >>--> >>-->> I think the main problem is defining what a diesel is. There are diesel >>-->> trucks and busses that send out huge plumes of black smoke whenever they >>-->> move. Diesel cars do not do this. >>--> >>-->Actually Robert, I've got to respectfully add my own perspective here >>-->that thinks you fell for an image that the environwhackos and some other >>-->well meaning folks like to craft of diesel power. >>--> >>-->I own a diesel car that does belch black smoke - a '79 Cad with the 350 >>-->Olds diesel. :-) Diesel cars used to do this, even old MBs. >>--> >>-->I work for a public transit agency, a bus operator. Our buses haven't >>-->"belched smoke" now for more than ten years. The engine manufacturers >>-->have been cleaning this up in anticipation of legislation that would >>-->require that they do so anyway. >>--> >>-->Our buses ranging in age from 9 to 1 year old are very clean compared to >>-->the image you created with that statement. And, we (all bus operators >>-->in CA along with other public agencys that operate "heavy, heavy duty >>-->cycle" diesel powered vehciles, are being forced by the California Air >>-->Resources Board to add retrofit devices, at great cost to the taxpayers, >>-->to reduce particulate and NOx emissions to a level set by the federal >>-->EPA but much sooner. >>--> >>-->I could write volumes about what has gone on with the CARB and diesel >>-->bus operators, but there isn't space on this BB to do so. I have direct >>-->experience in this, as I have been the designated "point person" for our >>-->transit agency since CARB passed these laws. If you want to see old >>-->hippies who just don't get it, you need to meet some of the CARB >>-->scientists. Forty years later, they are still wearing sandals, long >>-->hair and beads. They blame everything on "corporate greed" and think >>-->"profit" is a dirty word. They give absolutely no respect or >>-->consideration to the diesel engine manufacturers such as Detroit, >>-->Cummins, Navistar or Caterpillar for the hundreds of millions of dollars >>-->they've invested in cleaning up their diesels, starting long before CARB >>-->passed the "fleet emissions rules" back in 1998. >>--> >>-->My agency has choosen to purchase modern diesel engines and to use a >>-->specialized, water-diesel emulsion fuel called "PuriNOx" that Chevron >>-->actually developed. Our NOx emissions are down by 40% but we haven't >>-->reached the 70% reduction that CARB wants to see. We are involved in a >>-->$1M demonstration project with other Bay Area Transit operators using a >>-->specialized, ammonia injection system to try and obtain the NOx >>-->reductions that CARB wants. We will be retrofitting our existing 62 bus >>-->fixed route fleet with catalytic devices that reduce NOx by this much >>-->over the next two years. >>--> >>-->Our PM emissions are now immeasureable at the exhaust pipe with mobile >>-->equipment. Beleive me, there is no visible smoke except under full >>-->throttle acceleration, where there is only a faint "wisp". However, >>-->CARB will NOT accept this as they will only accept results from one of >>-->thier two approved labs with dynomometers that cost more than $10,000 >>-->per test for us to use. >>--> >>-->Oh, did I tell you, that since use diesel bus operators were so >>-->cooperative with CARB in implementing this ruling, they are now crafting >>-->virtually the same rules for heavy duty cycle diesels in our fleets - >>-->our paratransit vans with the 7.3l Powerstroke diesels- to come into >>-->effect starting in 2007. >>--> >>-->By the way, the diesel manufacturers have been developing engines to >>-->meet the EPA requirements that are becoming stricter, year by year all >>-->along. CARB just didn't want to wait for the 8,000 bus stock in >>-->California to "turn over" from the normal depreciation cycle. >>--> >>-->The driving force behind all of this is environmental groups and others >>-->like the American Lung Association who have not hidden their desires to >>-->get diesel powered vehicles off the road alltogther. At CARB meetings I >>-->have watched them attack CARB scientists for not going far enough fast >>-->enough. Realities related to economics, physics, chemistry or even what >>-->great progress has already been made NEVER enter into these >>-->discussions/hearings. >>--> >>-->By the way, the MTA in New York went ahead an purchased three fuel cell >>-->powered buses as a demonstration towards future public transit. They >>-->only cost $3M each! >>--> >>-->Don't even get me started on this. And don't take my word for it. >>-->Visit the engine manufacturers websites to see what they are doing. >>-->Stop over at the CARB website and read up, it's full of all kinds of >>-->euphemisms. See how your tax dollars are wasted implementing programs >>-->like this and how this drives up the cost you pay for the product too. >>--> >>-->Tom H., '87 300 SDL >>--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 10:11:10 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Hmmmm there ya go... giving us Diesel types a bad name with the big mouth liberal types... ;) it would be kind of cool though to install a smoke screen device... just put a small injector into the muffler to spray some Diesel fuel... :) john On Sat, 15 May 2004, Robert Chase wrote: >>-->she was loudly talking about how its terrible that people still drive >>-->huge "gas guzzling cars" my 300SD belched out a smelly cloud of diesel >>-->smoke. If only I had taken a photo of her dirty look. >>-->Robert Chase ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 14:21:31 -0500 From: "Sam Williams" <1sam-at-io.com> Subject: RE: [db] Hmmmm Tom, I've done some work here for the transit authority, also for San Antonio. Our busses never belch black smoke. We run very clean vehicles, have for years. The fleet now includes several diesel-electric hybrids. As you say, there have been tremendous strides in cleaning on-road-diesel exhausts but it ain't been cheap. Diesels are an easy target. People over 30 may actually remember smoke belching from truck and bus exhaust pipes; those with anti-diesel political agendas don't miss a chance to remind us. The average Americans' knowledge of diesels is based on a common TV image: a scene of smoking trucks and busses in dense traffic contrasted with virgin countryside and a single gleaming SUV, Pickup or speeding sports-car in view. Often the background music changes dramatically between the contrasting scenes. Less dramatic images on local TV news of clogged freeways show creeping trucks, SUVs and a few tiny sedans but little exhaust smoke. We remember the car ads better. It has become common, if incorrect, knowledge that all diesels belch copious amounts of black smoke. Look for yourselves next time. Exhaust from modern trucks and busses--even when accelerating hard--rarely contains much, if any, black smoke. Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Thomas J. Harais Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 10:39 AM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: [db] Hmmmm Robert Chase wrote: >> I think the main problem is defining what a diesel is. There are diesel >> trucks and busses that send out huge plumes of black smoke whenever they >> move. Diesel cars do not do this. Actually Robert, I've got to respectfully add my own perspective here that thinks you fell for an image that the environwhackos and some other well meaning folks like to craft of diesel power. I own a diesel car that does belch black smoke - a '79 Cad with the 350 Olds diesel. :-) Diesel cars used to do this, even old MBs. I work for a public transit agency, a bus operator. Our buses haven't "belched smoke" now for more than ten years. The engine manufacturers have been cleaning this up in anticipation of legislation that would require that they do so anyway. Our buses ranging in age from 9 to 1 year old are very clean compared to the image you created with that statement. And, we (all bus operators in CA along with other public agencys that operate "heavy, heavy duty cycle" diesel powered vehciles, are being forced by the California Air Resources Board to add retrofit devices, at great cost to the taxpayers, to reduce particulate and NOx emissions to a level set by the federal EPA but much sooner. I could write volumes about what has gone on with the CARB and diesel bus operators, but there isn't space on this BB to do so. I have direct experience in this, as I have been the designated "point person" for our transit agency since CARB passed these laws. If you want to see old hippies who just don't get it, you need to meet some of the CARB scientists. Forty years later, they are still wearing sandals, long hair and beads. They blame everything on "corporate greed" and think "profit" is a dirty word. They give absolutely no respect or consideration to the diesel engine manufacturers such as Detroit, Cummins, Navistar or Caterpillar for the hundreds of millions of dollars they've invested in cleaning up their diesels, starting long before CARB passed the "fleet emissions rules" back in 1998. My agency has choosen to purchase modern diesel engines and to use a specialized, water-diesel emulsion fuel called "PuriNOx" that Chevron actually developed. Our NOx emissions are down by 40% but we haven't reached the 70% reduction that CARB wants to see. We are involved in a $1M demonstration project with other Bay Area Transit operators using a specialized, ammonia injection system to try and obtain the NOx reductions that CARB wants. We will be retrofitting our existing 62 bus fixed route fleet with catalytic devices that reduce NOx by this much over the next two years. Our PM emissions are now immeasureable at the exhaust pipe with mobile equipment. Beleive me, there is no visible smoke except under full throttle acceleration, where there is only a faint "wisp". However, CARB will NOT accept this as they will only accept results from one of thier two approved labs with dynomometers that cost more than $10,000 per test for us to use. Oh, did I tell you, that since use diesel bus operators were so cooperative with CARB in implementing this ruling, they are now crafting virtually the same rules for heavy duty cycle diesels in our fleets - our paratransit vans with the 7.3l Powerstroke diesels- to come into effect starting in 2007. By the way, the diesel manufacturers have been developing engines to meet the EPA requirements that are becoming stricter, year by year all along. CARB just didn't want to wait for the 8,000 bus stock in California to "turn over" from the normal depreciation cycle. The driving force behind all of this is environmental groups and others like the American Lung Association who have not hidden their desires to get diesel powered vehicles off the road alltogther. At CARB meetings I have watched them attack CARB scientists for not going far enough fast enough. Realities related to economics, physics, chemistry or even what great progress has already been made NEVER enter into these discussions/hearings. By the way, the MTA in New York went ahead an purchased three fuel cell powered buses as a demonstration towards future public transit. They only cost $3M each! Don't even get me started on this. And don't take my word for it. Visit the engine manufacturers websites to see what they are doing. Stop over at the CARB website and read up, it's full of all kinds of euphemisms. See how your tax dollars are wasted implementing programs like this and how this drives up the cost you pay for the product too. Tom H., '87 300 SDL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 11:57:32 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] fuel prices On Sat, May 15, 2004 at 02:51:47AM -0400, Robert Chase wrote: >> All that expensive fuel up there. Must be your real estate prices. >> Since you can afford those 600k cracker boxes you must be able to fill >> up on $2.25 fuel :) Well, cracker boxes aren't that expensive where John lives. In the bay area, OTOH... And real estate prices have no bearing on fuel prices. They how much they can without getting people to drive elsewhere. THAT is what affects fuel prices. I offer as evidence Baker, CA. In April, premium was $2.70 a gallon. Real estate prices are literally dirt. But, if you need gas and you are in Baker, the chances of heading to Barstow or across the NV state line for fuel (each is about a 45-60 minute drive) are pretty slim. >> Hmmm at this rate the 3.00 mark wont be far away at all. Maybee we will >> see the 4.00 mark this summer. Just imagine if you had one of those >> trucks or SUV's with a dual fuel tank. 40 gallons of expensive fuel is >> just short of $100 I knew it was going to clear $3 a gallon in california during the summer. I don't know if it will hit $4 or not, but wouldn't be overly surprised to see it hit $3.50. It would be nice if the nations grumbling about upping production would actually DO it. I think crude cleared $42 a barrel, and we're not even through may yet. What people fail to realize is that when fuel prices go up, it affects you in ways you wouldn't expect. Sure, it may be fun to watch some soccer mom filling up her v10 excursion and paying $90 to do so, and having that not last very long, but people miss the big picture. Instead of that excursion's 33 gallon tank, how about two 80 gallon tanks? Or bigger? Saddle them on the frame of your truck with 4-6 mpg (if you're lucky) diesel under the hood. THAT is how your goods get to the store that you buy them from. THAT is how supplies get to manufacturers to build things. THAT affects the cost of living for all of us, regardless of if we are driving 6 mpg big blocks around, or 55mpg TDI jettas. If you want an evil grin, I had to fill up the powerstroke last week - had about a third of one tank left, and the other was empty. About $71.00 to fill up both tanks. Sure, that will last me a lot longer than the aforementioned soccer mom with v10 excursion, but OUCH. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1458 **********************************