From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jun 30 09:01:38 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, June 30 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1496 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... [db] 240D Chassis Ground Re: [db] 240D Chassis Ground [db] RE: 240D Chassis Ground [db] Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... RE: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... [db] Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... RE: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... RE: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... [db] Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... Re: [db] RE: 240D Chassis Ground Re: [db] Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:46:59 -0700 From: john meister Subject: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... It appears that Rube Goldberg Designs Inc. is losing ground at Daimler Chrysler... seems they have eliminated some 160 mouse traps, er functions, from the newest Benz designs... Interestingly enough it seems that people don't like systems that don't work properly... hmmm, imagine that... I'm not sure what's more overly complex, the federal government or the climate control and door lock system on my (older) Benz (after all mine doesn't have the Tunnel vent feature)... :) Another thing this article points out is that we're stuck with a lot of what was initially developed... backward compatibility is not just an issue, it's a way of life... to change something as simple as the voltage on the auto light bulb is mind boggling... article in link below... john - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Mercedes-Benz Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:29:42 -0700 From: P Bain For You Techy Types... http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_dc_dumps_volts/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:53:59 -0700 From: Nick.Eckert-at-theaustin.com Subject: [db] 240D Chassis Ground Hi Waylon, I too had grounding issues on my 240D The ground on mine is on the drivers side, towards the rear of the engine. I would highly recommend removing each of the ground points on the vehicle, there are five, clean up the ground wires and connection points with a brass wire brush, and re-connect all the grounds. This worked wonders for my electrical system. I also recommend removing the main wiring harness connection at the starter solenoid and cleaning up that also. After I did this I found it greatly improved electrical power throughout the vehicle. Cheers, Nick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:02:21 -0700 From: john meister Subject: Re: [db] 240D Chassis Ground excellent advice... found the same issues in the full size jeep world... ideally you want to have a single ground point to prevent ground loops, but in the case of these older vehicles that's hard to do... what will work is to have one central ground point on the firewall and run wire to it and the chassis. Rust, corrosion and so on prevent things from working as originally planned. Making sure there is a good ground between the battery, alternator and starter are very important. Even running jumper wires between body panels with sheet metal screws has worked to improve lighting and radio performance on some rigs... One of the things I've done with older Jeeps is to create a new wiring harness. I'll go to the back of a switch, look at the wiring and then go to the light or item controlled and look at that wiring, then trace, as much as possible, the wire. Then I'll create a new harness with good wire and run it between the switch and the load, sometimes I'll yank out the old, dried, brittle wire... Not sure I would do this on a Benz though... a lot harder to run wiring in a car then in a Jeep, but if you're having trouble with one system it might work to create your own wiring harness for that device... of course we know that Rube really liked vacuum... ;) later, john Nick.Eckert-at-theaustin.com wrote: > Hi Waylon, > > I too had grounding issues on my 240D > > The ground on mine is on the drivers side, towards the rear of the > engine. > > I would highly recommend removing each of the ground points on the > vehicle, there are five, clean up the ground wires and connection points > with a brass wire brush, and re-connect all the grounds. This worked > wonders for my electrical system. > > I also recommend removing the main wiring harness connection at the > starter solenoid and cleaning up that also. After I did this I found it > greatly improved electrical power throughout the vehicle. > > Cheers, > > Nick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:02:42 -0400 From: wblack-at-deltacorp.com Subject: [db] RE: 240D Chassis Ground 5 points or 5 grounds? Neg cable = 2 points Ground cable is 2 more Where are the others? Thanks, Waylon Black - -----Original Message----- From: Nick.Eckert-at-theaustin.com [mailto:Nick.Eckert-at-theaustin.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 11:54 AM To: wblack-at-deltacorp.com Cc: diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Subject: 240D Chassis Ground Hi Waylon, I too had grounding issues on my 240D The ground on mine is on the drivers side, towards the rear of the engine. I would highly recommend removing each of the ground points on the vehicle, there are five, clean up the ground wires and connection points with a brass wire brush, and re-connect all the grounds. This worked wonders for my electrical system. I also recommend removing the main wiring harness connection at the starter solenoid and cleaning up that also. After I did this I found it greatly improved electrical power throughout the vehicle. Cheers, Nick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:14:18 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Ted Spradley wrote: >-->On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:46:59 -0700 >-->john meister wrote: >-->> http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_dc_dumps_volts/index.htm >-->Well, what would be the benefit of more voltage, anyway? For digital simple, less current flow. reduced copper diameter=less weight. less weight, better fuel economy... remember, the power factor remains the same... P=I*E as voltage increases, current decreases with the same wattage... less current requires less copper... hence the high voltage power lines... and 220v used in Europe... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:09:08 -0400 From: "Steve Morelen" Subject: RE: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... check out the article "Ford may sidestep suppliers" in the link to Ward's magazine.... Steve Morelen '84 300D From: john meister <john-at-wagoneers.com> Reply-To: john-at-wagoneers.com To: 'dbl' <diesel-benz-at-digest.net>, fsj list <fsj-digest-at-digest.net>, offtopic <offtopic-at-digest.net>, xj <xj-at-digest.net> Subject: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:46:59 -0700 It appears that Rube Goldberg Designs Inc. is losing ground at Daimler Chrysler... seems they have eliminated some 160 mouse traps, er functions, from the newest Benz designs... Interestingly enough it seems that people don't like systems that don't work properly... hmmm, imagine that... I'm not sure what's more overly complex, the federal government or the climate control and door lock system on my (older) Benz (after all mine doesn't have the Tunnel vent feature)... :) Another thing this article points out is that we're stuck with a lot of what was initially developed... backward compatibility is not just an issue, it's a way of life... to change something as simple as the voltage on the auto light bulb is mind boggling... article in link below... john - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Mercedes-Benz Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:29:42 -0700 From: P Bain <yellowSLK-at-hotmail.com> For You Techy Types... http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_dc_dumps_volts/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ^V get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:50:52 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, John Hofstetter wrote: >-->On Jun 29, 2004, at 4:14 PM, john wrote: >-->>> -->john meister wrote: >-->>> -->> http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_dc_dumps_volts/index.htm >-->>> -->Well, what would be the benefit of more voltage, anyway? For >-->> >-->> simple, less current flow. reduced copper diameter=less weight. >-->> less weight, better fuel economy... >-->> >-->> remember, the power factor remains the same... >-->> >-->> P=I*E >-->> >-->> as voltage increases, current decreases with the same wattage... >-->> >-->> less current requires less copper... >-->> >-->> hence the high voltage power lines... and 220v used in Europe... >-->> >-->> john >--> >-->Good explanation John, but I have a related question. Why 42 volts? >-->Seems like a strange number compared to 36 or 48. >--> >-->Seems to me that the military used a lot of 32 V stuff in addition to >-->24 volt, which doesn't help me answer my own question, but ..... it is indeed a strange number... avionics uses 28VDC. Commercial power runs 440/220/208(three phase)/120... standard automotive is 13.8v... 42/1.5=28 28 cells??? assuming a cell is 1.5v each...??? it does seem like an odd number, but thanx to journalists that aren't necessarily technically minded types we might never know.... it really irritates me when someone writes about something automotive or technical and doesn't provide the necessary details... lame reporting... reminds me of a test report written by someone I know on a Jeep Grand Cherokee in Germany with the Turbo Diesel and they neglected to provide any technical info or even pictures of the engine or performance data... but we know what they had to eat... argghhh... give me the technical details please! If I get some time I'll look into this 42V thing... weird... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:58:27 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... Diesels! cool. john On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Steve Morelen wrote: >-->check out the article "Ford may sidestep suppliers" in the link to Ward's >-->magazine.... >--> >-->Steve Morelen >-->'84 300D >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:07:04 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... some info on the 42 Volt issue: what it is simply is a TRIPLING of the existing voltages, 12v (battery) and 14v (alternator). Reduces size of the motors, wiring, etc. If you go much more then that then you start getting into issues of safety... getting hit with 42V will not likely kill you... going higher in voltage makes arcing and sparking a bit more likely as well as the issues of human "involvement" in the circuits. :) (of course as little as 9 volts at 21 mA can kill you... under the right conditions... and no I won't tell you what those conditions are, neither will I teach you how to hack a computer or pick a lock... no go back to your room... ;) excuse me... ;) Anyway, if you had an alternator putting out that voltage it wouldn't be hard to split it out and still use existing 12v items... of course depending on how you do that could create the losses that DC was trying to avoid... so, here's some googled articles that help understand the raging issue: http://www.mindbranch.com/catalog/product.jsp?code=R1-2238&psrc=gsitemap http://www.normas.com/SAE/pages/SP-1556.html (pay to view! ;) lookie here, even dupont is in on it... figured they were happy just getting r12 outlawed after their patent ran out... ;) http://www.automotive.dupont.com/en/scienceAuto/AAEE/advancedEE.html http://www.caraudiomag.com/specialfeatures/0307cae_42volt/ excerpt: Some History and Background The 12-volt configuration has not always been with us. Up until the mid-1950s, U.S. cars used 6-volt systems and many European brands continued to produce 6-volt cars through the 1960s. General Motors made the switch in 1955, and VW was the last major player to jump to 12 volt, back in 1966. The larger trucks moved to 42-volt systems long ago. Actually, our cars run on 14-volt alternators and generator electrical systems; only the battery is 12 volts. The current thinking (pun intended) is for a triple increase to 42-volt systems. It is generally agreed that safe voltage is limited to 60V. As voltage levels rise, however, the higher voltage can more readily jump the air gap between electrical conductors and "arc." Arcing in a 42-volt environment is a much bigger headache than 12/14-volt systems --the energy in the arcs is much higher. The solution is there is a lot of subtle part redesign that has to be done to prevent arcing. The new 42-volt standard was driven by the industry wanting the highest possible voltage, with the most safety. But higher voltage beyond a point can have its own costs -- a European safety regulation specifies that any voltage above 60 needs to have more heavily insulated wires and connectors. That would ad... later, john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:05:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Welty Subject: [db] Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:50:52 -0700 (PDT) john wrote: > it is indeed a strange number... avionics uses 28VDC. Commercial > power runs 440/220/208(three phase)/120... standard automotive is 13.8v... telco battery plants are 48VDC, to throw out another commonly used number (most carrier grade network gear comes with DC options for deployment in telco facilities.) richard - -- Richard Welty rwelty-at-averillpark.net Averill Park Networking 518-573-7592 Java, PHP, PostgreSQL, Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:06:45 -0500 From: Jon Filina Subject: Re: [db] RE: 240D Chassis Ground Waylon scratched his head and asked: > 5 points or 5 grounds? > Neg cable = 2 points > Ground cable is 2 more > Where are the others? Son, you must be from the Dallas area! Those of us from Fort Worth are not nearly so dense... ;-) By the numbers: Chassis ground: Bell housing, driver's side, to frame. Big braided cable. Battery: Negative to top of wheel well. Passenger front headlight: Small wire to fender. Rear grounds: Both in the trunk. Left and rear tail light clusters. And...under the dash. Instrument cluster to firewall. That's six. However, you'll fix 99% of the problems with the battery ground and the one on the transmission. But, as the commercial shouts, there's more! You may not have a ground problem at all. Take a look at the wiring diagrams for you car and you'll see power going to the headlight switch. If your symptoms indicate a bad starter, alternator, battery or ignition switch, and the grounds have all checked out, take a gander at the headlight switch. If the power wires on the switch are loose or corroded, you wouldn't believe the problems you'd experience. If fixing the grounding problems only last for a short period of time, pull the headlight switch. Loosen, clean and tighten the connections and I'd bet your problem goes away. In a worse case scenario, replace the switch. Don't ask me how I know... BTDT and couldn't afford the t-shirt.... Jon '84 300SD "Bruno" just turned 185,000 mi. '81 240D "Mathilde" May she rest in peace. She knows about the headlight switch fix... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:03:20 -0400 From: Edward Pomeroy Subject: Re: [db] Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... I knew that BSEE would come in hand one day. The 48 volt limit was selected because of switching issues, and it actually was not best choice. Above about 35 volts, at high current especially, you start to get arcing on relays and switches. This reduces the life of the component and can introduce large voltage spikes into the system being switched. 48 volts was thought to be a workeable limit, however, from what I am following in the industry, it is proving to be a real bear when dealing with digital and semiconductor circuits, they DO NOT LIKE current surges and voltage spikes. It kills them and protecting them against this becomes bulky and expensive. Note that this is direct current (DC) switching. To get an idea, if you ever run a starter motor (very high current) look at the arcs at the commutators when being operated under load, and that is at only 12 V (or 10 or 9 depending). It was a weight and cost savings idea that did not pan out. Edward john wrote: >On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, John Hofstetter wrote: > > > >>-->On Jun 29, 2004, at 4:14 PM, john wrote: >>-->>> -->john meister wrote: >>-->>> -->> http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_dc_dumps_volts/index.htm >>-->>> -->Well, what would be the benefit of more voltage, anyway? For >>-->> >>-->> simple, less current flow. reduced copper diameter=less weight. >>-->> less weight, better fuel economy... >>-->> >>-->> remember, the power factor remains the same... >>-->> >>-->> P=I*E >>-->> >>-->> as voltage increases, current decreases with the same wattage... >>-->> >>-->> less current requires less copper... >>-->> >>-->> hence the high voltage power lines... and 220v used in Europe... >>-->> >>-->> john >>--> >>-->Good explanation John, but I have a related question. Why 42 volts? >>-->Seems like a strange number compared to 36 or 48. >>--> >>-->Seems to me that the military used a lot of 32 V stuff in addition to >>-->24 volt, which doesn't help me answer my own question, but ..... >> >> > >it is indeed a strange number... avionics uses 28VDC. Commercial >power runs 440/220/208(three phase)/120... standard automotive is 13.8v... > >42/1.5=28 28 cells??? assuming a cell is 1.5v each...??? > >it does seem like an odd number, but thanx to journalists that aren't >necessarily technically minded types we might never know.... it really >irritates me when someone writes about something automotive or >technical and doesn't provide the necessary details... lame reporting... > >reminds me of a test report written by someone I know on a Jeep >Grand Cherokee in Germany with the Turbo Diesel and they neglected to >provide any technical info or even pictures of the engine or performance >data... but we know what they had to eat... argghhh... > >give me the technical details please! > >If I get some time I'll look into this 42V thing... weird... > >john > > > ---- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1496 **********************************