From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Mon Jul 26 09:55:54 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Monday, July 26 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1511 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: [db] Belt still slipping [db] 240D centerfold??? [db] wagoneers.com Re: [db] Belt still slipping Re: [db] Belt still slipping Re: [db] Belt still slipping Re: [db] 240D centerfold??? Re: [db] 240D centerfold??? Re: [db] 240D centerfold??? Re: [db] Belt still slipping RE: [db] Belt still slipping RE: [db] Belt still slipping Re: [db] Belt still slipping [db] ok... for all you 240d owners... Re: [db] ok... for all you 240d owners... Re: [db] ok... for all you 240d owners... RE: [db] Belt still slipping Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:30:39 -0400 From: Mike Frank Subject: [db] Belt still slipping I wrestled out my A/C compressor. It turned out that the clutch wasn't quite right. At least that problem is behind me. Put in the new compressor, snaked in the belt. Went for a drive. Car starts to overheat, steering heavy. Home again. So what do I do now? I KNOW it's not the A/C compressor. That leaves the water pump, idler pulley, alternator, and power steering. The water pump is definitely ok, at least at idle everything works fine, I can measure the temp across the face of the radiator to verify flow. The idler rocker was replaced a few months ago. I took out the idler pulley, turned the surface smooth and square, and checkedthe bearing. Put any stress on the system: RPM over 2000, maneuver into a parking space, whatever, and the belt slips. The only squeal is where it picks up the drive pulley. Everything turns easily by hand. The water pump is a bit stiff, but I'm assuming that's just the seal. New belt doesn't help (I've gone through four belts since this started...that's a big expense in itself) How on earth can I diagnose this, without replacing everything? BTW, if anyone has to replace the compressor on a 190, there are nifty access windows in the wheel wells that allow you to get to the bottom bolts. Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:15:18 -0700 From: john meister Subject: [db] 240D centerfold??? looking through the pile of mail that had collected while I was in CA... I noticed the "latest" issue of the STAR... which is also my last if I don't reup. :) Anyway, centerfold this month is a 1982 240D. I guess they're getting the Benz crowd primed for Diesels... ;) john ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:43:44 -0700 From: john meister Subject: [db] wagoneers.com I just reworked the main page on wagoneers.com to make it easier to navigate... it was indeed a bit out of control. :) I placed links on the main page to find the various sections... car/rigs, tech, digests... http://wagoneers.com john ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 04:44:02 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] Belt still slipping On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 09:30:39PM -0400, Mike Frank wrote: > I wrestled out my A/C compressor. It turned out that the clutch wasn't > quite right. At least that problem is behind me. Put in the new compressor, > snaked in the belt. Went for a drive. Car starts to overheat, steering > heavy. Home again. > > So what do I do now? I KNOW it's not the A/C compressor. That leaves the > water pump, idler pulley, alternator, and power steering. The water pump > is definitely ok, at least at idle everything works fine, I can measure the > temp across the face of the radiator to verify flow. The idler rocker was > replaced a few months ago. I took out the idler pulley, turned the surface > smooth and square, and checkedthe bearing. > > Put any stress on the system: RPM over 2000, maneuver into a parking > space, whatever, and the belt slips. The only squeal is where it picks up > the drive pulley. Everything turns easily by hand. The water pump is a bit > stiff, but I'm assuming that's just the seal. New belt doesn't help (I've > gone through four belts since this started...that's a big expense in > itself) How on earth can I diagnose this, without replacing everything? Stupid question, has your belt tensioner given up enough of the ghost that it just isn't tight enough? I should be more familiar with the serpentine setup in a 190D, but I can't remember right now. For some reason, I want to say there is this spring thing with a hook on each end that looked like it could loosen up with age. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:12:44 -0400 From: Mike Frank Subject: Re: [db] Belt still slipping At 07:44 AM 7/25/2004, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >Stupid question, has your belt tensioner given up enough of the ghost that >it just isn't tight enough? I should be more familiar with the serpentine >setup in a 190D, but I can't remember right now. For some reason, I want >to say there is this spring thing with a hook on each end that looked like >it could loosen up with age. That could happen, but not in this case. The tensioner arm is brand new, the spring is very strong. There's very little deflection in the belt. Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:02:43 -0700 From: john meister Subject: Re: [db] Belt still slipping are you sure everything is lined up properly? was anything removed and replaced by someone else? I had an olds Diesel that started throwing belts... turns out that when the shop had swapped the motor they got the bracket for the ps under the exhaust manifold bracket, just putting it off just a little bit, so when the rpm's rose the belt took off... the other thought is that something is defective... suspects are that water pump and the a/c pump... I guess even the alternator... are these all mercedes parts? new parts can be defective... you might try to put a white strip on all the pulleys and set up a strobe light of some kind then have the motor run up in rpm and watch to see if any of the pulleys slow down at higher rpms... getting a pulse for a timing light could be a challenge, be careful not to overload the tach circuit... possibly connect it off the alternator, or just resort to using something left over from the '60's... sorry, I got rid of my strobe light in the '70's. ;) john Mike Frank wrote: > At 07:44 AM 7/25/2004, Kevin Pekarek wrote: > >> Stupid question, has your belt tensioner given up enough of the ghost >> that >> it just isn't tight enough? I should be more familiar with the serpentine >> setup in a 190D, but I can't remember right now. For some reason, I want >> to say there is this spring thing with a hook on each end that looked >> like >> it could loosen up with age. > > > That could happen, but not in this case. The tensioner arm is brand new, > the spring is very strong. There's very little deflection in the belt. > > Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:07:36 -0700 From: john meister Subject: Re: [db] 240D centerfold??? yeah, pretty twisted eh? ;) what color is yours? this one is kind of yellow... interesting story... do you get the star? If not I could probably snap a digital picture on it and post it... I doubt the MBCA would give me any grief for promoting their club/rag like that... :) john Vernon Tuck wrote: > My car is an '82 240D! > > To think it's a centerfold! > > VT ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:59:22 -0500 From: "Vernon Tuck" Subject: Re: [db] 240D centerfold??? My car is an '82 240D! To think it's a centerfold! VT ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:12:36 -0500 From: "Vernon Tuck" Subject: Re: [db] 240D centerfold??? Hi John, Mine's "kind of yellow". Approximately the color of a banana. And twice as fast! We don't get the star. Regards and thanks! Vernon yeah, pretty twisted eh? ;) what color is yours? this one is kind of yellow... interesting story... do you get the star? If not I could probably snap a digital picture on it and post it... I doubt the MBCA would give me any grief for promoting their club/rag like that... :) john Vernon Tuck wrote: > My car is an '82 240D! > > To think it's a centerfold! > > VT ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:39:44 -0400 From: Mike Frank Subject: Re: [db] Belt still slipping Argh! Found the problem (slapping head...leaving greasy fingerprints on scalp). When I reinstalled the belt, I set it up the other way...there are at least two ways to thread the belt on a 190d, maybe I can find more if I work at it. In any event, I went back to the manual and took it step by step. When the belt went on, it was...much more better. Thanks, Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:14:20 -0700 From: "derick amburgey" Subject: RE: [db] Belt still slipping If everything is as you described it. Here is how "I" would proceed: First I would start over and forget everything I have done to date. As a tech sometimes I get tunnel vision and proceed down the wrong path. Hopefully; I realize this before needing extraction by search and rescue. ;) Check all fasteners on components in the belt travel. As per John, check alignment of belt travel. As per Kevin's suggestion I would check the spring tension on the idler assembly. Check for oil contamination in the belt path (mating surfaces, pulleys and such). Disable A/C clutch so it cannot engage. Listen to the bearings on the alternator, for grinding or grumbling, at low RPM with a mechanics stethoscope. (inexpensive) Since I have allot of spare parts. I would then replace in the following order: 1. Power steering pump 2. Alternator 3. Water pump Then... 1. Idler assembly (all parts) As mentioned you do not have access to a garage full of benz parts like some of us packrats... I would then submit to a Mercedes wrench, it may save you money if you do not have access to the above parts. Best I can do with out seeing it first hand. Good luck. Derick - -----Original Message----- From: Mike Frank [mailto:mfrank-at-westnet.com] Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 6:31 PM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: [db] Belt still slipping I wrestled out my A/C compressor. It turned out that the clutch wasn't quite right. At least that problem is behind me. Put in the new compressor, snaked in the belt. Went for a drive. Car starts to overheat, steering heavy. Home again. So what do I do now? I KNOW it's not the A/C compressor. That leaves the water pump, idler pulley, alternator, and power steering. The water pump is definitely ok, at least at idle everything works fine, I can measure the temp across the face of the radiator to verify flow. The idler rocker was replaced a few months ago. I took out the idler pulley, turned the surface smooth and square, and checkedthe bearing. Put any stress on the system: RPM over 2000, maneuver into a parking space, whatever, and the belt slips. The only squeal is where it picks up the drive pulley. Everything turns easily by hand. The water pump is a bit stiff, but I'm assuming that's just the seal. New belt doesn't help (I've gone through four belts since this started...that's a big expense in itself) How on earth can I diagnose this, without replacing everything? BTW, if anyone has to replace the compressor on a 190, there are nifty access windows in the wheel wells that allow you to get to the bottom bolts. Mike Frank - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 7/22/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:15:44 -0700 From: "derick amburgey" Subject: RE: [db] Belt still slipping Guess I should read all my email before responding! Good! Derick - -----Original Message----- From: Mike Frank [mailto:mfrank-at-westnet.com] Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 8:40 AM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: [db] Belt still slipping Argh! Found the problem (slapping head...leaving greasy fingerprints on scalp). When I reinstalled the belt, I set it up the other way...there are at least two ways to thread the belt on a 190d, maybe I can find more if I work at it. In any event, I went back to the manual and took it step by step. When the belt went on, it was...much more better. Thanks, Mike Frank - --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 7/22/2004 - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 7/22/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:16:56 -0700 From: john meister Subject: Re: [db] Belt still slipping that's ok... good response... always helps folks to see the proper methodology... :) john derick amburgey wrote: > Guess I should read all my email before responding! > Good! > > Derick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Frank [mailto:mfrank-at-westnet.com] > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 8:40 AM > To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: [db] Belt still slipping > > > Argh! Found the problem (slapping head...leaving greasy fingerprints on > scalp). When I reinstalled the belt, I set it up the other way...there are > at least two ways to thread the belt on a 190d, maybe I can find more if I > work at it. In any event, I went back to the manual and took it step by > step. When the belt went on, it was...much more better. > > Thanks, > Mike Frank > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 7/22/2004 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 7/22/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:42:41 -0700 From: john meister Subject: [db] ok... for all you 240d owners... http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/CARS/240D-star-mag/ john ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:48:21 -0500 From: "Vernon Tuck" Subject: Re: [db] ok... for all you 240d owners... Thanks, John! That's exactly my car! Vernon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:31:48 -0700 From: john meister Subject: Re: [db] ok... for all you 240d owners... you're welcome... enjoy john Vernon Tuck wrote: > Thanks, John! > > That's exactly my car! > > Vernon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:47:12 -0400 From: Mike Frank Subject: RE: [db] Belt still slipping I disassembled the clutch on my old A/C compressor to see what the problem was. It turns out the electromagnet is secured to the front of the case with a C ring. It's prevented from rotating by a boss on the case which mates with a hole in the magnet backing plate. It turned out that all of this was worn: the C ring had some play, and the hole in the backing plate was elongated. There was enough play to cause interference with the moving parts. The whole mechanism was jammed with filings as a result of the magnet poles interfering with the pulley. The compressor is a year old rebuilt. The clutch was recycled, since new replacements weren't available. I don't think the clutch is salvageable, but I'm going to hold on to the compressor. Maybe next time it'll be a seal or bearing problem. Mike Frank ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1511 **********************************