From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Fri Jul 30 11:09:40 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Friday, July 30 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1514 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: [db] Oil leak from head Re: [db] Oil leak from head [db] 190D engine problem RE: [db] 190D engine problem Re: [db] 190D engine problem Re: [db] 190D engine problem Re: [db] 190D engine problem Re: [db] 190D engine problem Re: [db] 190D engine problem [db] Re: xj: FuelMax Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:11:40 -0400 From: Edward Pomeroy Subject: [db] Oil leak from head Hello fellow listers: My 300D 2.5 Turbo just came back from the local indpendent Benz shop. Had the #3 injector replaced, it would not close all the way and my neighbors were tired of being fumigated each morning, to say nothing of the persons behind me on the highway. In the process I asked that an annoying oil leak, just a few drops each time I park, be traced. The mechanic says the head to block gasket is leaking oil from the front right side and a very small bit from the rear ot the engine (the latter is not enough to leave any marks on the pavement). Not thevalve cover, that fat rubber gasket is nice and tight, but from the head itself. Can anyone explain to me how I can have excellent compression, normal running, no loss of coolant etc. and still have this annoying leak? Are the oil circulation ports between the block and head that close to the edge of the head? Do I have a warped head? I hope this is something db board denizens may have faced in the past. Before I go through the expense and hassle of removing the head to inspect it and the gasket, your input would be much appreciated. TIA Edward ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:11:14 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] Oil leak from head On Tue, Jul 27, 2004 at 10:11:40PM -0400, Edward Pomeroy wrote: > Can anyone explain to me how I can have excellent compression, normal > running, no loss of coolant etc. and still have this annoying leak? Are > the oil circulation ports between the block and head that close to the > edge of the head? Do I have a warped head? I hope this is something db > board denizens may have faced in the past. Sure. The path of failure was from an oil passage to the edge of the gasket. 601s do that, so I'm not surprised that a 602 did that. > Before I go through the expense and hassle of removing the head to > inspect it and the gasket, your input would be much appreciated. There are three theories, choose your favorite: - oil is cheap. live with it. - pay a ton of money to fix it (or fix it yourself, but it's time consuming) - go under the theory that the reason the gasket blew was that the head wandered on the gasket. a retorque of the head bolts may fix it. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:13:29 +0100 From: Stephen Rigley Subject: [db] 190D engine problem So... its one of those problems where the engine won't start (the worst kind). Last night my nearest and dearest took our '88 190D (4 cylinder) down to Cork for a funeral (2 and a half hour drive), no problems, a little sluggish at times but always perked back up. This morning she was driving back and it dies... won't restart... I told her to leave it a min and try again... it starts... the stops again 10 miles on ... this goes on for about 60 miles then it dies. So, I hop in the mx-5 and head down to her and find that the plug on the rearmost return line has disintegrated and comes off in my hand. I replace it with a piece of tubing with a bolt stuck in the end to plug the line, car starts, we set off... get one mile and it dies again... of course the battery has taken a beating from all the cranking so that starts to go too... time for a flatbed to the garage where it is at currently. So... whatcha think? Any ideas on this? Is it possible its the lift pump? Do these tend to go? Any help appreciated! Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:39:35 -0500 From: Subject: RE: [db] 190D engine problem You might just check/replace all the fuel filters, and if the car was fueled during the trip, avoid that station. Alec > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Rigley > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 9:13 AM > To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: [db] 190D engine problem > > > So... its one of those problems where the engine won't start > (the worst > kind). Last night my nearest and dearest took our '88 190D (4 > cylinder) > down to Cork for a funeral (2 and a half hour drive), no problems, a > little sluggish at times but always perked back up. This > morning she was > driving back and it dies... won't restart... I told her to > leave it a min > and try again... it starts... the stops again 10 miles on ... > this goes > on for about 60 miles then it dies. So, I hop in the mx-5 and > head down > to her and find that the plug on the rearmost return line has > disintegrated and comes off in my hand. I replace it with a piece of > tubing with a bolt stuck in the end to plug the line, car > starts, we set > off... get one mile and it dies again... of course the > battery has taken > a beating from all the cranking so that starts to go too... time for a > flatbed to the garage where it is at currently. > > So... whatcha think? Any ideas on this? Is it possible its > the lift pump? > Do these tend to go? > > Any help appreciated! > > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:43:23 -0400 From: Mike Frank Subject: Re: [db] 190D engine problem The usual check...air, fuel, ignition, is much simplified in a Diesel: you don't need ignition, there's always plenty of air, so it has to be fuel. I would guess that some air was trapped somewhere as a result of the end plug going. Mike Frank At 10:13 AM 7/28/2004, Stephen Rigley wrote: >So, I hop in the mx-5 and head down >to her and find that the plug on the rearmost return line has >disintegrated and comes off in my hand. I replace it with a piece of >tubing with a bolt stuck in the end to plug the line, car starts, we set >off... get one mile and it dies again... of course the battery has taken >a beating from all the cranking so that starts to go too... time for a >flatbed to the garage where it is at currently. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:19:26 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] 190D engine problem I'd say replace the filters and return lines with benz parts, charge the battery and get it running. Then test the injectors one by one to see if any are bad. doesn't sound serious, sounds like a fuel/injector problem, but not a bad injector injector problem.... clogged lines, etc. john On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Stephen Rigley wrote: >-->So... its one of those problems where the engine won't start (the worst >-->kind). Last night my nearest and dearest took our '88 190D (4 cylinder) >-->down to Cork for a funeral (2 and a half hour drive), no problems, a >-->little sluggish at times but always perked back up. This morning she was >-->driving back and it dies... won't restart... I told her to leave it a min >-->and try again... it starts... the stops again 10 miles on ... this goes >-->on for about 60 miles then it dies. So, I hop in the mx-5 and head down >-->to her and find that the plug on the rearmost return line has >-->disintegrated and comes off in my hand. I replace it with a piece of >-->tubing with a bolt stuck in the end to plug the line, car starts, we set >-->off... get one mile and it dies again... of course the battery has taken >-->a beating from all the cranking so that starts to go too... time for a >-->flatbed to the garage where it is at currently. >--> >-->So... whatcha think? Any ideas on this? Is it possible its the lift pump? >-->Do these tend to go? >--> >-->Any help appreciated! >--> >-->Steve >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:47:13 +0100 From: Stephen Rigley Subject: Re: [db] 190D engine problem Thanks for all the replies folks! I'll certainly invest in some biocide (I have NEVER heard of this problem before in diesels or even seen it discussed.... mad eh?) Just rang the garage, the car is ready (!) and the bill is 40 euros(!!).... nice one! Ah... any excuse for a 2 hour drive top-down, off with the MX-5 to collect now ;-) Steve - ----- Original Message ----- From: john Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 5:19 pm Subject: Re: [db] 190D engine problem > I'd say replace the filters and return lines with benz parts, > charge the battery and get it running. Then test the injectors > one by one to see if any are bad. > > doesn't sound serious, sounds like a fuel/injector problem, > but not a bad injector injector problem.... clogged lines, etc. > > john > > > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Stephen Rigley wrote: > > >-->So... its one of those problems where the engine won't start > (the worst > >-->kind). Last night my nearest and dearest took our '88 190D (4 > cylinder)>-->down to Cork for a funeral (2 and a half hour drive), > no problems, a > >-->little sluggish at times but always perked back up. This > morning she was > >-->driving back and it dies... won't restart... I told her to > leave it a min > >-->and try again... it starts... the stops again 10 miles on ... > this goes > >-->on for about 60 miles then it dies. So, I hop in the mx-5 and > head down > >-->to her and find that the plug on the rearmost return line has > >-->disintegrated and comes off in my hand. I replace it with a > piece of > >-->tubing with a bolt stuck in the end to plug the line, car > starts, we set > >-->off... get one mile and it dies again... of course the battery > has taken > >-->a beating from all the cranking so that starts to go too... > time for a > >-->flatbed to the garage where it is at currently. > >--> > >-->So... whatcha think? Any ideas on this? Is it possible its the > lift pump? > >-->Do these tend to go? > >--> > >-->Any help appreciated! > >--> > >-->Steve > >--> > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:26:04 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] 190D engine problem hey, be happy to go and retrieve it... just send the plane tickets to get me over there... shoot, I'll even gas it up and wash it when we're done... ;) oh, did I mention I need a co-pilot? So make that two tickets... ;) john On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Stephen Rigley wrote: >-->Thanks for all the replies folks! I'll certainly invest in some biocide >-->(I have NEVER heard of this problem before in diesels or even seen it >-->discussed.... mad eh?) >--> >-->Just rang the garage, the car is ready (!) and the bill is 40 >-->euros(!!).... nice one! >--> >-->Ah... any excuse for a 2 hour drive top-down, off with the MX-5 to >-->collect now ;-) >--> >-->Steve >--> >-->----- Original Message ----- >--> >-->From: john >--> >-->Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 5:19 pm >--> >-->Subject: Re: [db] 190D engine problem >--> >-->> I'd say replace the filters and return lines with benz parts, >-->> charge the battery and get it running. Then test the injectors >-->> one by one to see if any are bad. >-->> >-->> doesn't sound serious, sounds like a fuel/injector problem, >-->> but not a bad injector injector problem.... clogged lines, etc. >-->> >-->> john >-->> >-->> >-->> On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Stephen Rigley wrote: >-->> >-->> >-->So... its one of those problems where the engine won't start >-->> (the worst >-->> >-->kind). Last night my nearest and dearest took our '88 190D (4 >-->> cylinder)>-->down to Cork for a funeral (2 and a half hour drive), >-->> no problems, a >-->> >-->little sluggish at times but always perked back up. This >-->> morning she was >-->> >-->driving back and it dies... won't restart... I told her to >-->> leave it a min >-->> >-->and try again... it starts... the stops again 10 miles on ... >-->> this goes >-->> >-->on for about 60 miles then it dies. So, I hop in the mx-5 and >-->> head down >-->> >-->to her and find that the plug on the rearmost return line has >-->> >-->disintegrated and comes off in my hand. I replace it with a >-->> piece of >-->> >-->tubing with a bolt stuck in the end to plug the line, car >-->> starts, we set >-->> >-->off... get one mile and it dies again... of course the battery >-->> has taken >-->> >-->a beating from all the cranking so that starts to go too... >-->> time for a >-->> >-->flatbed to the garage where it is at currently. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->So... whatcha think? Any ideas on this? Is it possible its the >-->> lift pump? >-->> >-->Do these tend to go? >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Any help appreciated! >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Steve >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> ---- >-->> >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ------ >-->> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ------ >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:29:31 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] 190D engine problem On Wed, Jul 28, 2004 at 03:13:29PM +0100, Stephen Rigley wrote: > So... its one of those problems where the engine won't start (the worst > kind). Last night my nearest and dearest took our '88 190D (4 cylinder) > down to Cork for a funeral (2 and a half hour drive), no problems, a > little sluggish at times but always perked back up. This morning she was > driving back and it dies... won't restart... I told her to leave it a min > and try again... it starts... the stops again 10 miles on ... this goes > on for about 60 miles then it dies. So, I hop in the mx-5 and head down > to her and find that the plug on the rearmost return line has > disintegrated and comes off in my hand. I replace it with a piece of > tubing with a bolt stuck in the end to plug the line, car starts, we set > off... get one mile and it dies again... of course the battery has taken > a beating from all the cranking so that starts to go too... time for a > flatbed to the garage where it is at currently. First thing I'd do is replace the fuel filters. If that solves your problem, drive it for a while. If it's fine, don't worry about it. You got crud from the fuel, but it's fine now. If it clogs them again, I'd seriously think about draining the fuel tank OR getting some biocide and another couple of sets of fuel filters. Air getting into the system will work itself out, and won't prevent a 601 from starting, as the injector pump is self priming. The fact that you can restart infinitely points to fuel. Air in the lines would make a hard to start condition. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 85 190D (601, 5spd) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:07:57 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] Re: xj: FuelMax On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Boney Varghese wrote: >-->Has anyone tried this product FuelMax >--> >-->They've just started selling it in the Middle East. I'm wondering if it >-->really make a difference in the mileage >-->Later >-->Bones here's a simple test... pour some Diesel or Gasoline into a bowl, OUTSIDE, well ventilated area... take a magnet, hold it near the bowl, above the bowl... any change? I didn't think so. :) This is could be a waste of money, the feds actually fined someone selling these things a while back, mainly because of the outlandish claims. In looking on the web it does appear that there is a slight improvement, but no where near the amount claimed. How can a magnet affect the flow of fuel? Is there iron in the fuel? Are there ANY ferrous components of fuel? Does a magnetic field affect non-ferrous material at all? The Swedes were testing electromagnetic properties on humans with a concern about monitors and power lines. From what I recall the test netted no significant effect or danger. We're bombarded daily with electromagnetic signals, radios, tv's, ignition systems, power lines, even each other... They're all over... ;) Besides, at the rate that fuel is flowing past this item and the turbulence in the system, how could it "line up" molecules? Any benefit would be quickly minimized downstream. The benefits of this device are more then likely fall into the category of a "placebo" effect. Meaning you just spent money on this device to get better economy so you drive for better economy and get it... kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. There is little or NO scientific evidence to justify any benefits from such a device. Anyone reporting improvement would unlikely be able to quantify the results scientifically. There are other variables that can not be controlled in such a test. If this were tested methodically and with a blind control it would certainly net nothing. Some of the tests cited do not provide solid statistical validation. One test, short time... weak. The cow magnet fad was raging almost 20 years ago... this is an old scam reawakened. The thing is there might be some benefit... maybe... but why? And as one report pointed out you'd need to keep your vehicle for 150,000 miles at least to break even. :) (that is assuming it really works, which hasn't really been scientifically and statistically validated) On this page they do a "test" running for FIFTEEN MINUTES! Look at the "gains". What is the percentage of change? Do they record the temperature, time, barometric pressure, the quality of the oil, operator, tides??? ;) Have they cited ALL the variables and controlled them? Are they really following the scientific method? http://www.dsuper.net/~tonyg29/Caterpillar.htm The variations in fuel economy for ONE run show an increase. Statistically this data is NOT valid. You do NOT have enough data to validate this theory. There is simply not enough data to show this as valid, especially considering the lack of scientific principle to back this up. The turbitity of the fuel flow in ANY fuel system would immediately negate any potential (although highly improbable) "lining up" of fuel molecules... This just makes NO SENSE whatsoever. Save your money... research what the Better Business Bureau... I checked snopes and found nothing, but a search on google produced these items: http://www.komotv.com/news/printstory.asp?id=12382 (note: they say anything less than 1 mpg is "insignificant", or better put within the statistical deviation or "noise" and not necessarily valid) http://www.eureka.findlay.co.uk/archive_features/Arch_Automotive/magnets/Magnets.htm EPA tests: http://www.epa.gov/orcdizux/consumer/reports.htm actual FUEL MAX TEST: http://www.epa.gov/orcdizux/consumer/devices/pb81229866.pdf The thing that bothers me is the shysters claim "DRAMATIC" improvements, up to 28%, yet the tests seem to show 4 to 8%. What is interesting is they do show some improvement, whether this is part of the placebo effect or that the magnet field does help is yet to be determined, I'm going to finish reading the EPA test. One of the pages (eureka) mentions that bar magnets in line do seem to have an effect, but also mentions the same flow related issues that I raised. If this is a real benefit, then simply, as found near the bottom of the eureka link, follow these design pointers: " Design Pointers Applying a strong magnetic field to hydrocarbon fuel entering an internal combustion engine, engine cylinder, or burner appears to improve the efficiency of combustion Bar magnets placed each side of the fuel line appear to work best, with North poles opposing each other best for petrol, and North pole opposite South pole best for diesel. The magnets should be near injectors in low pressure injection systems, or applied to the fuel filter in high pressure injection systems. The technique can also be applied to gaseous fuels " For a real laugh, wander around a mechanics shop and see what the reaction is if they find one of these things under the hood... I'd suggest an independent shop where the wrenches have real "attitude". Not recommended for those with sensitive ears... ;) john, skeptical in snohomish. :) ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1514 **********************************