From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Tue Aug 17 17:58:00 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, August 18 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1536 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: [db] 190D Bosch fuel injectors RE: [db] '88 190D update (steering linkage) [db] The SuperDawg project Re: [db] OM 617.952 Shakes at idle (followup) [db] propane injection RE: [db] propane injection Re: [db] propane injection Re: [db] propane injection RE: [db] propane injection Re: [db] propane injection [db] Re: f1engineering.com - Diesel Info Comments Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:33:48 -0400 From: "wmpless" Subject: [db] 190D Bosch fuel injectors Hello, Hopefully, somebody can give me some advice on the injectors for a 602 engine. The manual say the 601.911 engine requires Nozzle DN 0 SD 261/- and the 602.911 engine requires Nozzle DN 0 SD 265. Both work with an injection pressure: new 115-125 bar with a minimum of 100 bar. Both require the Nozzle Holder # KCA 30 S 44. Still have some reconditioned Bosch fuel injectors from a VW diesel engine which marked 130 bar. Would these fuel injectors be suitable for 602.911 engine 2.5D non turbo?? Also read that in Germany Bosch is not offering rebuilt fuel injectors for diesel engines any longer. Regards Wiard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:02:34 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: RE: [db] '88 190D update (steering linkage) At 07:43 AM 8/16/2004 , Alec_Cordova-at-Dell.com wrote: >As a professional software tester, I'm amazed they can get away with >telling you your car failed, but they don't tell you which of the 29 >points was the catch. It almost sounds like a Windoze error message. Greg Fiorentino Vancouver USA gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net '86 300SDL Turbo '84 300D Turbo '79 300TD '85 F-350 6.9 crew cab - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 8/11/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:04:38 -0700 From: john meister Subject: [db] The SuperDawg project Just a quick update... started my day job today so I won't be on line as much... ;) The current plan after this weekend's discussions is to do the following... Put the 6.2L/700r4/np208 pass side drop into the '83 J10 frame, will pick up a '79 J10 Golden Eagle for the pass side drop front D44, will probably give that 360/th400/QT to my friend in exchange for the J10, then put the '96 4.0L/AW4/NP219 (with custom adapter) into the '79 J10 the '79 J10 will get superdawg's old front axle... the '83 GMC Jimmy body and axles will also go to my friend who just happens to have a rotted out Suburban gas model... Oh yeah, as part of the J10/Jimmy/engine barter I'm going to try and get a willys pickup or wagon that will eventually get a MB Diesel setup... :) Superdawg is first priority... then the '79 Golden Eagle... then of course some where in there Rambo gets SuperDawg's old 4.2L/T5... some where in the midst of these musical motors it would be nice if Rocky got some attention too... ;) Let's see... how many vehicles have been involved in this project? At least 2 XJ's, 4 J-10's (at least), and two GMC's... oh yeah and one wagoneer... (power windows/door locks) My next search is for a mechanical sunroof assembly, maybe out of an older 240D. I want the manual crank metal sunroof setup... no glass, no motors... :) Oh yeah, in order to facilitate the project it looks like I'll be dismantling one of curtis's cars... rofl... Just watch for us on I-5... you can't miss us... ;) Well, got to get the Midterm ready for tomorrow night... In case you're wondering how my commute is going, check it out at: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/pugetsoundtraffic/cameras/default.htm (I travel from SR 9 via 128th down to Mercer St and back on I-5, "only" 27 miles... did it just over the speed limit both ways today... takes around 45 minutes to an hour...) If there is an accident or snow it could take hours... folks were stuck on I-5 for over 8 hours during one storm... ;) later, john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:09:15 -0700 From: "Paul Masterson" Subject: Re: [db] OM 617.952 Shakes at idle (followup) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome Kaidor" To: "Paul Masterson" Cc: ; "Eric Ditwiler" Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [db] OM 617.952 Shakes at idle (followup) > Paul Masterson wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > Gunk build up should *increase* the compression by making the combustion > > chamber smaller.(through displacement) > > > *** Not if it makes the rings stick, or the valves stick, or prevents a > valve from closing completely.... True, that is why I mentioned the "leakdown" test, because you can hear the air escaping the valves if they are in fact stuck open. But, generally gunk build up will in fact increase the compression ratio (unevenly), I point that out to stop someone from chasing the wrong goose. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:25:20 -0700 From: john meister Subject: [db] propane injection just talking to a friend this morning and he mentioned propane injection... guess some shop in Denver is going big time with it... 30 to 40% increase in power, 4 or 5 mpg... what he was saying is that you'd use about 2 gallons of propane for 20 gallons of Diesel... anyone heard anything on this? I'm not planning on turbocharging my 6.2L in SuperDawg, but this propane mod sounds reasonable... I heard there is a kit for around $750. Any downsides? john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:31:17 -0500 From: "Alec Cordova" Subject: RE: [db] propane injection Isn't it similar to nitrous oxide in a gasser? Anything that makes your motor produce more power will necessarily increase the stresses inside. If you run the balancing act well, you don't wear out or blow up your motor too prematurely. Alec > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john meister > Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 11:25 PM > To: 'dbl'; fsj list > Subject: [db] propane injection > > > just talking to a friend this morning and he mentioned propane > injection... > guess some shop in Denver is going big time with it... 30 to 40% increase > in power, 4 or 5 mpg... what he was saying is that you'd use > about 2 gallons > of propane for 20 gallons of Diesel... > > anyone heard anything on this? I'm not planning on turbocharging my 6.2L > in SuperDawg, but this propane mod sounds reasonable... I heard there is > a kit for around $750. > > Any downsides? > > john > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 8/9/2004 > - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 8/9/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:33:05 -0700 From: john meister Subject: Re: [db] propane injection actually propane injection works better in a Diesel... it increases the cetane rating (supposedly), burns cleaner, runs cooler... it's a win-win scenario from what I understand... john Alec Cordova wrote: > Isn't it similar to nitrous oxide in a gasser? > > Anything that makes your motor produce more power will necessarily increase > the stresses inside. If you run the balancing act well, you don't wear out > or blow up your motor too prematurely. > > Alec > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net >>[mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john meister >>Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 11:25 PM >>To: 'dbl'; fsj list >>Subject: [db] propane injection >> >> >>just talking to a friend this morning and he mentioned propane >>injection... >>guess some shop in Denver is going big time with it... 30 to 40% increase >>in power, 4 or 5 mpg... what he was saying is that you'd use >>about 2 gallons >>of propane for 20 gallons of Diesel... >> >>anyone heard anything on this? I'm not planning on turbocharging my 6.2L >>in SuperDawg, but this propane mod sounds reasonable... I heard there is >>a kit for around $750. >> >>Any downsides? >> >>john >> >>--- >>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >>Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 8/9/2004 >> > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 8/9/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:07:36 -0700 From: Eric Ditwiler Subject: Re: [db] propane injection When I was thinking of turning my 1984 F250 with a 6.9 into a true monster, I called Spearco Intercoolers looking for an intercooler and mentioned to one of their engineers that I was also considering propane. He told me that they had played with a few years before and the only problem was snapping driveline components from the 60% increase in power and torque. Bullydog makes a kit for a normally aspirated engine. Most use boost pressure to meter the propane. On Aug 16, 2004, at 9:25 PM, john meister wrote: > just talking to a friend this morning and he mentioned propane > injection... > guess some shop in Denver is going big time with it... 30 to 40% > increase > in power, 4 or 5 mpg... what he was saying is that you'd use about 2 > gallons > of propane for 20 gallons of Diesel... > > anyone heard anything on this? I'm not planning on turbocharging my > 6.2L > in SuperDawg, but this propane mod sounds reasonable... I heard there > is > a kit for around $750. > > Any downsides? > > john > Eric Ditwiler, Assistant Dean Harvey Mudd College 301 E. 12 Street, Claremont, CA 91711 909-607-3134 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:38:28 -0600 From: Subject: RE: [db] propane injection For me, a serious downside would be finding propane stations to fill up... what a pain! For my suburban, I would need a 3-5 gallon propane tank fillup for every diesel fillup (30-45 gallons). The gas stations that have the cheapest diesel don't have propane, and the ones that I know of with propane have a $.25 markup on diesel.... But, on my 190D, a 5 gallon tank would last a LONG time....probably 3 months worth, depending on extra trips taken. Boy, it could sure use a 40-60% power increase....that 72 hp is just barely enough.... If you have a big propane tank at home for your house heater, maybe you could just rig up a little fill up station at home? Or, I guess you could install a big 20 gallon or 50 gallon propane tank in your jeep. R, Scott - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Eric Ditwiler Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 9:08 AM To: john-at-wagoneers.com Cc: 'dbl'; fsj list Subject: Re: [db] propane injection When I was thinking of turning my 1984 F250 with a 6.9 into a true monster, I called Spearco Intercoolers looking for an intercooler and mentioned to one of their engineers that I was also considering propane. He told me that they had played with a few years before and the only problem was snapping driveline components from the 60% increase in power and torque. Bullydog makes a kit for a normally aspirated engine. Most use boost pressure to meter the propane. On Aug 16, 2004, at 9:25 PM, john meister wrote: > just talking to a friend this morning and he mentioned propane > injection... > guess some shop in Denver is going big time with it... 30 to 40% > increase > in power, 4 or 5 mpg... what he was saying is that you'd use about 2 > gallons > of propane for 20 gallons of Diesel... > > anyone heard anything on this? I'm not planning on turbocharging my > 6.2L > in SuperDawg, but this propane mod sounds reasonable... I heard there > is > a kit for around $750. > > Any downsides? > > john > Eric Ditwiler, Assistant Dean Harvey Mudd College 301 E. 12 Street, Claremont, CA 91711 909-607-3134 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:19:14 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] propane injection On Mon, Aug 16, 2004 at 09:25:20PM -0700, john meister wrote: > just talking to a friend this morning and he mentioned propane injection... > guess some shop in Denver is going big time with it... 30 to 40% increase > in power, 4 or 5 mpg... what he was saying is that you'd use about 2 > gallons > of propane for 20 gallons of Diesel... Generally speaking, you want to carry 1/4 of your diesel capacity in propane. If you rig something up so that it is not always on, you can go with less. > anyone heard anything on this? I'm not planning on turbocharging my 6.2L > in SuperDawg, but this propane mod sounds reasonable... I heard there is > a kit for around $750. Bullydog makes one, though I've only seen it with turbo kits. They use boost pressure and expensive electronics to meter flow so that you don't do something stupid. I've stayed away from their kits, since $750 buys a fair amount of diesel (or dana 60, or gauges, etc), and that kit doesn't include a tank or installation (if you don't do it yourself). > Any downsides? Well, like anything, there's downsides. First of all, you're dealing with a 6.2 which is reliable as gravity as long as you behave yourself - it's not the heavy duty truck engine that a 6.9/7.3 is, or a cummins. The theory behind propane as it was explained to me is that the propane allows the diesel fuel to atomize better, causing more of it to burn. The propane itself is flammable (and contains energy), so it adds power as well. Since it is consumed, it is not a true catalyst. The main hole in this theory is most stock diesels (except really old ones that smoke like chimneys) is that if you're not shooting black smoke, you're effectively burning everything, so what you're left with is injecting something into the cylinder with a lower flash point and with no lubricity that diesel has. Purely from that perspective, it doesn't seem like something that would aid longevity. But, I know of people who have rigged up things for NA diesels, which, as everyone knows, tend to go overrich when climbing a hill. And it does make a difference. But not a one of them can report a 4 to 5 mpg increase, and they also have to find propane, which isn't free. Then there's the annoying deal of the feds changing the regulations on which tanks can be filled and having to retrofit tanks... From an economy standpoint, it doesn't make sense - the savings in diesel fuel is quickly eaten up by a purchase of propane, and you might as well have saved yourself the trip (which consumes fuel and time). The other problem with propane is metering it. Too much propane blows headgaskets, if you're lucky. The 6.2 is somewhat known for cracking heads when you make it angry, which is an expensive proposition. In the Ford realm, the old gasser "too much nitrous" sympton appears - you burn a neat little hole right through the piston. That too, of course, is if you are lucky. The bottom line is it's pretty cool, but be warned. There is risk of making the engine [or at least parts of it] into paperweights and doorstops, and if there really was that much to gain from it mpg wise, these guys with diesel pusher motorhomes [all with on board propane] would be using it. IMHO, a banks kit is probably a wiser investment. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:35:59 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] Re: f1engineering.com - Diesel Info Comments Thank you for this information, I'll pass this on to a group of Diesel enthusiasts on my diesel-benz list, and a couple of jeep lists. :) I haven't owned a bike for over 18 years, but if I can afford this one I'll be riding again... Love those Diesels. thanx, john meister '91 300d 2.5L TD '83 GMC Jimmy 6.2L (engine going into my '83 J10 stepside...) snohomish, washington On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 F1ENGINEERING-at-aol.com wrote: Production of the civilian version of our military diesel KLR has had to be delayed for a short time. We are just a small company and have been working on this engine for about six years now, however we have been unable to attract any financial backers or partners to the project. Even though the US Government has pretty much paid for all of the development of the engine, we still need private funding of around $2 million, a very small sum considering the huge market for this particular, world's only high performance small diesel engine, especially in light of current events and current gas prices. This funding is required for EPA and DOT testing, crash testing, reliability testing (even though we have thousands of miles on the military bikes and upwards of 60,000 miles on a couple of the earlier test bikes), production facilities, marketing, advertising, warranty and spares programs, etc., plus a million other details that we are not required to perform on the military units. All of our resources are currently being used on the new USMC contract for 600 Diesel Combat Motorcycles. Scheduled delivery of the first production bikes to the USMC is August 2004, with production continuing through 2006. We had hoped to be building engines for the civilian version alongside the military unit, as this would have reduced cost quite significantly, the cost of 5,000 sets of engine castings from the foundry is obviously a lot less per engine than 600 sets. The same goes for everything else in the engine. So, although we are still actively searching for a partner / backer, we have not yet been able to get this great machine out on the highways. We do however, still hold out hope that someone with the financial resources needed will come along to help us continue on with the project. Meanwhile, yes we are continuing to build the diesel engines for use in the USMC Diesel Combat Motorcycle, and of course our development program continues on alongside the production line. With NATO's new requirement for "one battlefield fuel" several NATO countries are currently testing our bikes, all have given glowing reports on the bikes performance, especially the ease of riding even with amateur riders, and of the quiet, smoke free, easy starting diesel engine, (not a kick start at 24:1 compression). As you can imagine, we have many new patents on the internals of this engine, we started with a blank piece of paper and ignored the people who said "you can't do that with a diesel engine". We now have software engineers working on mapping the engine for a new common rail fuel injection system, the same system used on the new Ford Powerstroke and GM's Duramax. This should give us quite a boost in horsepower over the current mechanical unit and make the machine very tractable under all conditions. The production USMC version of the diesel KLR is now right at 40 horse power at 5700 rpm with 45 foot pounds of torque. With a power range from 1200 rpm thru 7500 rpm. The very latest development version now running on the dyno has a lighter weight flywheel, a new cast aluminum, nickel plated cylinder and a re-designed cylinder head. This engine is producing horsepower up to 8500 RPM and has extremely good throttle response through the whole power range. Dry Weight: 369 lbs. Fuel type used during tests; Diesel / Aviation Kerosene / Biodiesel (20% and 100%) Performance: 0-30 mph, 3.3 sec. - 0-60 mph, 8.6 sec. Maximum speed as tested; In excess of 102 mph. Fuel Mileage as tested (full military load); 105 mpg -at- 55 mph. We are preparing to run a couple of the bikes at the Bonneville Salt Flats in September, orchestrated by our PR people, we have managed to talk the organizing body into making a series of new classes for a diesel engined motorcycle, one of the planned runs will be on 100% biodiesel if we can get a little backing from the biodiesel or soy industries etc. Our future plans include a v-twin diesel engine for ATV and Cruiser use, we have our engineers already working on this engine and several other variants. For those of you that are looking to replace your gas engine with one of our diesel engines, unfortunately at this time all of the units are being produced under a military contract and, until we start production on the civilian unit with private funding, we are not able, or even allowed, to offer any of the engines, engine components or complete bikes for sale to the general public. Thanks for your interest, and if you know of an enthusiast or someone with the financial resources available that might be interested in our project, please let us know, we need to get the word out there. Regards, Roger G. Flynn F1 Engineering 10844 "E" Avenue, Suite A-1 Hesperia, CA 92345 www.f1engineering.com ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1536 **********************************