From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Thu Aug 19 07:01:15 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Thursday, August 19 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1537 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] propane injection RE: [db] propane injection Re: [db] propane injection Re: [db] propane injection Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:37:19 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] propane injection On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Eric Ditwiler wrote: >-->When I was thinking of turning my 1984 F250 with a 6.9 into a true >-->monster, I called Spearco Intercoolers looking for an intercooler and >-->mentioned to one of their engineers that I was also considering >-->propane. He told me that they had played with a few years before and >-->the only problem was snapping driveline components from the 60% >-->increase in power and torque. cool. Such a problem to have, eh? If you put a nerf ball under the go pedal it might help, or at least build stronger leg muscles... ;) john >--> >-->Bullydog makes a kit for a normally aspirated engine. Most use boost >-->pressure to meter the propane. >--> >--> >-->On Aug 16, 2004, at 9:25 PM, john meister wrote: >--> >-->> just talking to a friend this morning and he mentioned propane >-->> injection... ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:41:41 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] propane injection On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 scott_haaland-at-agilent.com wrote: >-->For me, a serious downside would be finding propane stations to fill up... >-->what a pain! For my suburban, I would need a 3-5 gallon propane >-->tank fillup for every diesel fillup (30-45 gallons). The gas stations that >-->have the cheapest diesel don't have propane, and the ones that I know of >-->with propane have a $.25 markup on diesel.... not a problem, a 20 gallon propane tank isn't that large... you could go several Diesel fill-ups w/o it... Also, I'd think that you wouldn't need to run it all the time... If I do it on my I'll set it up so I can run it when I want to... thinking about like when I'm up in Ouray or some other place way up there in altitude... even my 4.7L V8 Grand Cherokee was pretty anemic at 11,000 feet. :) >-->But, on my 190D, a 5 gallon tank would last a LONG time....probably 3 >-->months worth, depending on extra trips taken. Boy, it could sure use >-->a 40-60% power increase....that 72 hp is just barely enough.... that would be a nice plus... :) I wonder what it would to to my 2.5L TD... not sure I want to go there, it's already fast enough. >-->If you have a big propane tank at home for your house heater, maybe you >-->could just rig up a little fill up station at home? Or, I guess you >-->could install a big 20 gallon or 50 gallon propane tank in your jeep. I have a couple of 100lb cylinders at home and some refilling gear. When I lived out in the sticks (further than where I am now... ;) I had a large tank and had it set up with a hose so I could fill my welding cylinder. I often use propane for cutting as it's cheaper then acetylene and a bit more forgiving if it leaks. ;) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:57:18 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] propane injection sounds like good advice... I'm thinking that I could setup a small metered nozzle into my aircleaner/intake and use a small propane cylinder. Would be useful for short runs with added power... The 6.2L in my Jimmy is plenty strong already... it's dialed in nicely, doesn't smoke much when you really nail it. In SuperDawg it'll have less wind resistance and less weight (I think). Either way, reducing complexity and leaving it alone makes more sense then having a few extra ponies to get in trouble with... ;) I guess my friend that suggested it is pretty radical... we were talking the other morning and he mentioned how he took his 500SEL across country a few weeks ago and was averaging 85 to 95... you should see some of his 4x4 projects... :) he's out of control... guess which one is his j10? http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/Ouray2002/Aug16-Ouray-PICNIC/picnic-9.jpg I can't remember, but if he didn't win the prize for the tallest FSJ he was pretty close to it... ;) john On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >-->On Mon, Aug 16, 2004 at 09:25:20PM -0700, john meister wrote: >-->> just talking to a friend this morning and he mentioned propane injection... >-->> guess some shop in Denver is going big time with it... 30 to 40% increase >-->> in power, 4 or 5 mpg... what he was saying is that you'd use about 2 >-->> gallons >-->> of propane for 20 gallons of Diesel... >--> >-->Generally speaking, you want to carry 1/4 of your diesel capacity in propane. >-->If you rig something up so that it is not always on, you can go with less. >--> >-->> anyone heard anything on this? I'm not planning on turbocharging my 6.2L >-->> in SuperDawg, but this propane mod sounds reasonable... I heard there is >-->> a kit for around $750. >--> >-->Bullydog makes one, though I've only seen it with turbo kits. They use >-->boost pressure and expensive electronics to meter flow so that you don't >-->do something stupid. I've stayed away from their kits, since $750 buys a >-->fair amount of diesel (or dana 60, or gauges, etc), and that kit doesn't >-->include a tank or installation (if you don't do it yourself). >--> >-->> Any downsides? >--> >-->Well, like anything, there's downsides. First of all, you're dealing with a >-->6.2 which is reliable as gravity as long as you behave yourself - it's not >-->the heavy duty truck engine that a 6.9/7.3 is, or a cummins. >--> >-->The theory behind propane as it was explained to me is that the propane allows >-->the diesel fuel to atomize better, causing more of it to burn. The propane >-->itself is flammable (and contains energy), so it adds power as well. Since it >-->is consumed, it is not a true catalyst. >--> >-->The main hole in this theory is most stock diesels (except really old ones >-->that smoke like chimneys) is that if you're not shooting black smoke, you're >-->effectively burning everything, so what you're left with is injecting something >-->into the cylinder with a lower flash point and with no lubricity that diesel >-->has. Purely from that perspective, it doesn't seem like something that would >-->aid longevity. >--> >-->But, I know of people who have rigged up things for NA diesels, which, as >-->everyone knows, tend to go overrich when climbing a hill. And it does make >-->a difference. But not a one of them can report a 4 to 5 mpg increase, and >-->they also have to find propane, which isn't free. Then there's the annoying >-->deal of the feds changing the regulations on which tanks can be filled and >-->having to retrofit tanks... From an economy standpoint, it doesn't make >-->sense - the savings in diesel fuel is quickly eaten up by a purchase of >-->propane, and you might as well have saved yourself the trip (which consumes >-->fuel and time). >--> >-->The other problem with propane is metering it. Too much propane blows >-->headgaskets, if you're lucky. The 6.2 is somewhat known for cracking heads >-->when you make it angry, which is an expensive proposition. In the Ford >-->realm, the old gasser "too much nitrous" sympton appears - you burn a neat >-->little hole right through the piston. That too, of course, is if you are >-->lucky. >--> >-->The bottom line is it's pretty cool, but be warned. There is risk of making >-->the engine [or at least parts of it] into paperweights and doorstops, and >-->if there really was that much to gain from it mpg wise, these guys with >-->diesel pusher motorhomes [all with on board propane] would be using it. IMHO, >-->a banks kit is probably a wiser investment. >--> >-->K >--> >-->-- >-->Kevin Pekarek >-->Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and >-->Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:27:23 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: [db] propane injection At 09:25 PM 8/16/2004 , john meister wrote: >just talking to a friend this morning and he mentioned propane injection... >guess some shop in Denver is going big time with it... 30 to 40% increase >in power, 4 or 5 mpg... what he was saying is that you'd use about 2 gallons >of propane for 20 gallons of Diesel... > >anyone heard anything on this? I'm not planning on turbocharging my 6.2L >in SuperDawg, but this propane mod sounds reasonable... I heard there is >a kit for around $750. > >Any downsides? > >john > How about a combination of WVO and propane? Possibly the cleaner burn aided by the propane would eliminate the coking problems of the WVO??? Greg Fiorentino Vancouver USA gfior-at-dslnorthwest.net '86 300SDL Turbo '84 300D Turbo '79 300TD '85 F-350 6.9 crew cab - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.740 / Virus Database: 494 - Release Date: 8/16/2004 ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1537 **********************************