From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Wed Nov 3 14:38:31 2004 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, November 3 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1596 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: 190D revs and mileage (was Re: [db] 190D schematics) RE: 190D revs and mileage (was Re: [db] 190D schematics) Re: 190D revs and mileage (was Re: [db] 190D schematics) Re: [db] 190D - a bit clanky Re: [db] 190D - a bit clanky Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:46:26 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: 190D revs and mileage (was Re: [db] 190D schematics) On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 09:41:12AM -0800, scott_haaland-at-agilent.com wrote: > As I drive my 190D, approaching 80mph sometimes (shhhhh), I marvel that there > isn't an overdrive as that little 4 banger gets going at 4000 rpm. It just > seems that if it could tone down the revs, it could get even better mileage. > I'd think it could still have really nice power (at least as nice as 2.2L > gives you) at 2500 or even 2250 RPM. For what it's worth, my 85 190D 2.2 five speed turns about 3100-3200 going 80, *JUST* shy of 3000 to go 75. 85 is around 3300-3400ish. You have to be going downhill to clear 4000 rpm in fifth. Mileage does not change noticeably when you wrap it up in fourth to climb a hill. Mileage DOES change noticeably when you upgrade to 15" wheels from a 190E, and they come with almost worn out pirellis on them. The pirellis stick too good compared to the goodyears on the 14" wheels. I seriously have lost somewhere around 9-10% just putting pirellis on the car. I'll know for certain when I fill up this evening. OUCH? Fortunately, the wheels came with the tires with about 5000 miles left on them. That should last me probably until the second week of december. I'll be looking for something with a more conservative treadwear rating and less rolling resistance. The pirellis feel great in the corners, but I really don't expect to be taking flat hairpins at 75 (like turn 7 at sears point) in this car ;) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:50:25 -0800 From: Subject: RE: 190D revs and mileage (was Re: [db] 190D schematics) Kevin, Now, to me, those RPM's seem much more reasonable. I guess your 5 speed must get better mileage on road trips just because of the reduced RPMs...we're talking 800-900 fewer revs at 80mph...which is significant... R, Scott - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Kevin Pekarek Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 1:46 PM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: 190D revs and mileage (was Re: [db] 190D schematics) On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 09:41:12AM -0800, scott_haaland-at-agilent.com wrote: > As I drive my 190D, approaching 80mph sometimes (shhhhh), I marvel that there > isn't an overdrive as that little 4 banger gets going at 4000 rpm. It just > seems that if it could tone down the revs, it could get even better mileage. > I'd think it could still have really nice power (at least as nice as 2.2L > gives you) at 2500 or even 2250 RPM. For what it's worth, my 85 190D 2.2 five speed turns about 3100-3200 going 80, *JUST* shy of 3000 to go 75. 85 is around 3300-3400ish. You have to be going downhill to clear 4000 rpm in fifth. Mileage does not change noticeably when you wrap it up in fourth to climb a hill. Mileage DOES change noticeably when you upgrade to 15" wheels from a 190E, and they come with almost worn out pirellis on them. The pirellis stick too good compared to the goodyears on the 14" wheels. I seriously have lost somewhere around 9-10% just putting pirellis on the car. I'll know for certain when I fill up this evening. OUCH? Fortunately, the wheels came with the tires with about 5000 miles left on them. That should last me probably until the second week of december. I'll be looking for something with a more conservative treadwear rating and less rolling resistance. The pirellis feel great in the corners, but I really don't expect to be taking flat hairpins at 75 (like turn 7 at sears point) in this car ;) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:54:34 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: 190D revs and mileage (was Re: [db] 190D schematics) On Tue, Nov 02, 2004 at 01:50:25PM -0800, scott_haaland-at-agilent.com wrote: > Now, to me, those RPM's seem much more reasonable. I guess your 5 speed must > get better mileage on road trips just because of the reduced RPMs...we're > talking 800-900 fewer revs at 80mph...which is significant... And it does. Before the pirellis, I could reliably get 40 mpg out of it. Now it seems to be somewhere between 36 and 37. Hopefully the new tires restore most of it's original economy. Supposedly the swap isn't all that difficult if you find a gasser 190E with a horked engine or fresh out of a wreck. Both the diesel and gasser seemingly use the same flywheel (both are neutral balance), pedal assembly, master/ slave cylinder setup. Clutch, throwout bearing, pilot bearing (and slave, actually) are easy to get from Rusty. Supposedly they even have the same bellhousing pattern and length. The 2.5 (diesel) and 2.3 (gasser) seem to have the same gear ratios and same torque rating. For some reason, the 2.2 (and 2.0 euro) diesel has a wider ratio. I don't know the rear end ratios offhand, but I am pretty sure they're taller (lower numerically) for the automatics. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:04:53 +0000 From: Stephen Rigley Subject: Re: [db] 190D - a bit clanky > >-->When starting the car from cold, theres a bit of a clank going on back > >-->near injector number 4 (2lt '88 190D 4 cylinder). This was confirmed > >-->with the use of my "listening stick", MB part number : JZX7723899K22IO > >-->(read : long bit of thin metal). I've bought the Haynes manual and > >-->promptly threw it out because I may as well be reading Gulliver's > >-->Travels as its obviously been written by someone in draft with a > >-->crayon and then given to monkeys to type. > >-->So... > >--> > >-->1) how difficult is it to remove the injectors for cleaning? > > why clean them, replace them... about $50. > you don't have the facilities to clean them properly and it'll > cost $35 to clean 'em... 50$ ? Where can I find these? I can have the injectors cleaned here for 19 euros each, but if they're that cheap for new ones... BTW, how difficult is it to remove them? > > >-->2) Is there anywhere with a write-up on the procedure? > > if there is it'd be nice to have a copy in: http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/tech > :) I'll write it up when I've changed 'em I suppose... (can't believe noone has done this before tho..) > > >-->3) Anyone got any of that return-line type pipe lying about (can't > >-->seem to source it)? > > the dealer sells that stuff by the foot... so do most parts stores... y'all > probably don't have NAPA over there, eh? ;) Nope, no NAPA... (New American Prez Absconds? Wishful thinking heheh ;-) > > >-->4) Am I right in thinking this noise is being caused by an injector > >-->either directly or indirectly (is it the fuel pump that is making the > >-->noise due to a blocked injector?) > > could be. a bad injector will clatter... As in a stick on the side of a saucepan clatter or ballbearings in a Pringles tube clatter? > > >-->5) Do diesel injectors tend to fail after a certain amount of mileage > >-->(we've 170k on our car)? > > varies... like any other man made part. :) ahh.. so no history of them being a "weak link" then? Nice one! > > john > > >--> > >-->Thanks > >-->Steve > >--> > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:36:47 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] 190D - a bit clanky On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Stephen Rigley wrote: >-->> >-->When starting the car from cold, theres a bit of a clank going on back >-->> >-->near injector number 4 (2lt '88 190D 4 cylinder). This was confirmed >-->> >-->with the use of my "listening stick", MB part number : JZX7723899K22IO >-->> >-->(read : long bit of thin metal). I've bought the Haynes manual and >-->> >-->promptly threw it out because I may as well be reading Gulliver's >-->> >-->Travels as its obviously been written by someone in draft with a >-->> >-->crayon and then given to monkeys to type. >-->> >-->So... >-->> >--> >-->> >-->1) how difficult is it to remove the injectors for cleaning? >-->> >-->> why clean them, replace them... about $50. >-->> you don't have the facilities to clean them properly and it'll >-->> cost $35 to clean 'em... >--> >-->50$ ? Where can I find these? I can have the injectors cleaned here >-->for 19 euros each, but if they're that cheap for new ones... >-->BTW, how difficult is it to remove them? dealer >-->> >-->2) Is there anywhere with a write-up on the procedure? >-->> >-->> if there is it'd be nice to have a copy in: http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/tech >-->> :) >--> >-->I'll write it up when I've changed 'em I suppose... (can't believe >-->noone has done this before tho..) might be in the digests... I'm sure I've recounted the story once or twice since '97. :) >-->> >-->3) Anyone got any of that return-line type pipe lying about (can't >-->> >-->seem to source it)? >-->> >-->> the dealer sells that stuff by the foot... so do most parts stores... y'all >-->> probably don't have NAPA over there, eh? ;) >--> >-->Nope, no NAPA... (New American Prez Absconds? Wishful thinking heheh ;-) national auto parts association I think... >--> >-->> >-->> >-->4) Am I right in thinking this noise is being caused by an injector >-->> >-->either directly or indirectly (is it the fuel pump that is making the >-->> >-->noise due to a blocked injector?) >-->> >-->> could be. a bad injector will clatter... >--> >-->As in a stick on the side of a saucepan clatter or ballbearings in a >-->Pringles tube clatter? yeah, the mechanical internals will do that when they go bad... there is a spring setup internal... >-->> >-->5) Do diesel injectors tend to fail after a certain amount of mileage >-->> >-->(we've 170k on our car)? >-->> >-->> varies... like any other man made part. :) >--> >-->ahh.. so no history of them being a "weak link" then? Nice one! no, not really... john >--> >-->> >-->> john >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Thanks >-->> >-->Steve >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> ---- >-->> >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> >-->> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1596 **********************************