From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jan 5 11:28:56 2005 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, January 5 2005 Volume 01 : Number 1698 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD Re: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD Re: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD RE: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD Re: [db] Oil change frequency Re: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD RE: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD RE: [db] Engine shocks RE: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD Re: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD Re: [db] Engine shocks RE: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:26:52 US/Eastern From: mfrank-at-westnet.com Subject: Re: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD The self-levelling rear is supposedly a bear to work on. Many people convert them to a standard suspension to save the cost of repair. Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 09:40:48 -0600 From: Jan Guthrie Subject: Re: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD Mike, Are your sure about that? When I have heard the idea of changing over mentioned before (maybe on other lists.....) most people have said that the cost of changing over and putting on a less functional and desirable system was both expensive AND undesirable. Many repairs (like new spheres) are not that expensive and can be DIY. Several people have rebuilt (fairly easily it seems ...) the valve which also can be a problem. But it really seems that the system is pretty reliable. Besides his in not even broken yet ..... Jan Guthrie and her 1985 300TD with the original self leveling suspension. mfrank-at-westnet.com wrote: > The self-levelling rear is supposedly a bear to work on. Many people convert > them to a standard suspension to save the cost of repair. > > Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:41:18 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD my '91 300d has a similar system... it's expensive if it goes out, but no problems other than one time when I parked at a funny angle with the car running... it tried to level the car and made a lot of funny noises. :) up to that point I didn't realize the car had that option. :) john On Wed, 5 Jan 2005, Sarah Slack wrote: >-->First, let me clarify- I'm not an official MB owner or >-->officianado yet, but I'm pretty excited about a >-->potential vehicle- a 1981 300TD with 240,000 miles on >-->it for $1700. It runs great, but I checked in with a >-->mechanic who has worked on this car in the past and he >-->had one significant worry that I need more advice on- >-->he mentioned the hydraulic rear suspension (same thing >-->as the self-levelling rear suspension?) has the >-->potential to go out on this car. There are no current >-->problems with it, but should I be anticipating >-->expensive repairs in the future? I'm competent enough >-->to do minor repairs and maintenance such as oil >-->changes, hose replacements, etc... but am not sure it >-->would be worth the price of the car if this repair was >-->too complex for me to do myself and the price too high >-->for me to take it to a shop. Any feedback? >-->Thanks! >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:59:13 -0600 From: Subject: RE: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD I haven't owned one either, but my understanding is that there are only a few basic pieces to the system: Hydraulic fluid, which should be flushed/changed every few years for maximum system longevity; the spheres themselves, which are not prohibitively expensive or difficult to replace; the valve, which Jan mentions can be rebuilt; and the hoses, which again aren't that bad to replace when they wear out. If the system has been neglected to the point that it displays problems and needs several things fixed at once, it could use up a chunk of money, but if it currently works fine, one should only need moderate maintenance funds for it. "Works fine" would mean that the rear of the wagon does not sag (much) when the vehicle sits for a few days without running, and when running the rear height should adjust smoothly back to level when you add or remove several hundred pounds in the cargo section. Again, I have no direct experience with one, but I think if you're comfortable doing some work yourself, including flushing fluid and replacing hoses, and if the vehicle in question currently works pretty well, this should not at all be a deal breaker. I think it's less expensive to fix a fairly neglected leveling system than it might be to fix a really dead climate control system on a W123. Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 179K - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Jan Guthrie Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 9:41 AM To: mfrank-at-westnet.com; diesel-benz digest Subject: Re: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD Mike, Are your sure about that? When I have heard the idea of changing over mentioned before (maybe on other lists.....) most people have said that the cost of changing over and putting on a less functional and desirable system was both expensive AND undesirable. Many repairs (like new spheres) are not that expensive and can be DIY. Several people have rebuilt (fairly easily it seems ...) the valve which also can be a problem. But it really seems that the system is pretty reliable. Besides his in not even broken yet ..... Jan Guthrie and her 1985 300TD with the original self leveling suspension. mfrank-at-westnet.com wrote: > The self-levelling rear is supposedly a bear to work on. Many people convert > them to a standard suspension to save the cost of repair. > > Mike Frank ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:06:50 +0000 From: Stephen Rigley Subject: Re: [db] Oil change frequency hmmm... another item to do this weekend... I've been using Duckham's ... this stuff : http://www.mx5ireland.com/members/srigley/Diesel%20oil.jpg Steve On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:21:54 -0800, derick amburgey wrote: > 98% of my driving is freeway driving. > Rarley hit any traffic jams due to work hours. > The 190d oil gets a change every 6000 miles. (about 5 weeks of driving) > Oil: Delo 400. > It uses about .5 to .75 quart between changes. > > Derick > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 1/3/2005 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 09:42:57 -0800 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD Jan Guthrie wrote: it really seems that the system is pretty reliable. The self-levelling rear is supposedly a bear to work on. Many people convert them to a standard suspension to save the cost of repair. Mike Frank We have a '79 with over 200,000 mi. I love the hydraulic suspension! I believe it has all other components that standard 123s have. If the hydraulic were to fail, it would just be like any car without the system, until repaired. I had the pump off to rebuild the vacuum pump and had to top up the fluid. It's fairly simple and the fluid is reasonable. Greg No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 1/3/05 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:03:42 -0600 From: "Sam Williams" Subject: RE: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD Sarah, In the middle of the last century, you could probably have found a mechanic to tell you that "Them furriners don't know anything about cars. I never heard of a Marsideez. You'll have nothing but trouble." At the same time, luxury cars in Europe were being sold with a wonderful new suspension that provided a more comfortable, more controllable ride than old style metal springs (that had been new technology in Europe in the dark ages, at a time most Americans hadn't learned about the wheel yet). It is more expensive than steel springs but most luxury models of all brands sold in Europe now use a similar system, as do a few American cars. The self-leveling suspension on your TD is a proven system, only slightly changed from that introduced by the French in 1952. It uses a hydraulic pump and is about as reliable as power steering. But, it relies on 'rubber' parts that degrade over time and must be renewed every decade or so. Typical maintenance involves checking fluid level as often as you check power steering fluid and replacing the 'accumulators' (containing the rubber diaphragms that degrade) every ten years or so. The accumulators cost ~$100 each and you replace both at the same time; book time for replacement is probably an hour though it takes only a few minutes per side for a knowledgeable mechanic with a lift (or second and subsequent times for a talented back-yard mechanic with jack stands). Suspension fluid is a special product, costs maybe $20/liter. Using the wrong fluid can mess up the whole system and cause expensive repairs--just like using pancake syrup instead of power steering fluid would. Unscrupulous or ignorant mechanics might claim you need expensive repairs when you need only replace the accumulators--or an Oil-Changes-R-Us place might top off the reservoir with the wrong fluid. Otherwise, self leveling suspension should prove as trouble-free as power steering, cost as much to maintain as brakes. It sure is nice when you have something heavy in the back of your wagon and not only the steering geometry remains correct but the headlights still brighten the road ahead instead of lighting the heavens and blinding approaching drivers. Enjoy your new 300TD! Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Sarah Slack Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 9:18 AM To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD First, let me clarify- I'm not an official MB owner or officianado yet, but I'm pretty excited about a potential vehicle- a 1981 300TD with 240,000 miles on it for $1700. It runs great, but I checked in with a mechanic who has worked on this car in the past and he had one significant worry that I need more advice on- he mentioned the hydraulic rear suspension (same thing as the self-levelling rear suspension?) has the potential to go out on this car. There are no current problems with it, but should I be anticipating expensive repairs in the future? I'm competent enough to do minor repairs and maintenance such as oil changes, hose replacements, etc... but am not sure it would be worth the price of the car if this repair was too complex for me to do myself and the price too high for me to take it to a shop. Any feedback? Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:03:42 -0600 From: "Sam Williams" Subject: RE: [db] Engine shocks Robert, Another unverifiable urban legend for you to worry over: I read on other lists that the engine shocks last forever but the bushings don't and you can renew the shock absorbing action by replacing $2.00's worth of bushings; you don't need to buy the $40.00 shock, itself. You must pull the shock to replace bushings, anyway. It's not hard. Grip the rod with a small wrench on flat spot and unscrew nuts,... . My old shock was far looser than the replacement so my experience runs counter to list wisdom. Of course, one data point can't disprove a trend. My 30 year old dash finally cracked, had been Armoralled at some point--same on the 40 year old Ford. If the MTBF of un-armoralled vinyl dashboards approaches or exceeds 50 years, Armorall may be as dangerous as 'they' say. Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Robert Chase Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 4:15 AM To: [db] (E-mail) Subject: [db] Engine shocks Hmmm, My vibration is still around.... I suspect its probably a bad engine shock........ Anybody got a good URL on how to replace this? Im debating doing this myself...... Then again I might bring it in :) Robert Chase ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:00:41 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD oh man... you had to go and ruin it for me... ">-->changed from that introduced by the French in 1952. It uses a hydraulic" I guess the fact that it is changed does have some redeeming value... ;) john On Wed, 5 Jan 2005, Sam Williams wrote: >-->Sarah, >--> >-->In the middle of the last century, you could probably have found a mechanic >-->to tell you that "Them furriners don't know anything about cars. I never >-->heard of a Marsideez. You'll have nothing but trouble." At the same time, >-->luxury cars in Europe were being sold with a wonderful new suspension that >-->provided a more comfortable, more controllable ride than old style metal >-->springs (that had been new technology in Europe in the dark ages, at a time >-->most Americans hadn't learned about the wheel yet). It is more expensive >-->than steel springs but most luxury models of all brands sold in Europe now >-->use a similar system, as do a few American cars. >--> >-->The self-leveling suspension on your TD is a proven system, only slightly >-->changed from that introduced by the French in 1952. It uses a hydraulic >-->pump and is about as reliable as power steering. But, it relies on 'rubber' >-->parts that degrade over time and must be renewed every decade or so. >-->Typical maintenance involves checking fluid level as often as you check >-->power steering fluid and replacing the 'accumulators' (containing the rubber >-->diaphragms that degrade) every ten years or so. The accumulators cost ~$100 >-->each and you replace both at the same time; book time for replacement is >-->probably an hour though it takes only a few minutes per side for a >-->knowledgeable mechanic with a lift (or second and subsequent times for a >-->talented back-yard mechanic with jack stands). >--> >-->Suspension fluid is a special product, costs maybe $20/liter. Using the >-->wrong fluid can mess up the whole system and cause expensive repairs--just >-->like using pancake syrup instead of power steering fluid would. >--> >-->Unscrupulous or ignorant mechanics might claim you need expensive repairs >-->when you need only replace the accumulators--or an Oil-Changes-R-Us place >-->might top off the reservoir with the wrong fluid. Otherwise, self leveling >-->suspension should prove as trouble-free as power steering, cost as much to >-->maintain as brakes. It sure is nice when you have something heavy in the >-->back of your wagon and not only the steering geometry remains correct but >-->the headlights still brighten the road ahead instead of lighting the heavens >-->and blinding approaching drivers. >--> >-->Enjoy your new 300TD! >--> >-->Sam >--> >--> >--> >-->-----Original Message----- >-->From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On >-->Behalf Of Sarah Slack >-->Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 9:18 AM >-->To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >-->Subject: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD >--> >-->First, let me clarify- I'm not an official MB owner or >-->officianado yet, but I'm pretty excited about a >-->potential vehicle- a 1981 300TD with 240,000 miles on >-->it for $1700. It runs great, but I checked in with a >-->mechanic who has worked on this car in the past and he >-->had one significant worry that I need more advice on- >-->he mentioned the hydraulic rear suspension (same thing >-->as the self-levelling rear suspension?) has the >-->potential to go out on this car. There are no current >-->problems with it, but should I be anticipating >-->expensive repairs in the future? I'm competent enough >-->to do minor repairs and maintenance such as oil >-->changes, hose replacements, etc... but am not sure it >-->would be worth the price of the car if this repair was >-->too complex for me to do myself and the price too high >-->for me to take it to a shop. Any feedback? >-->Thanks! >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:25:20 US/Eastern From: mfrank-at-westnet.com Subject: Re: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD No, I'm not sure. I saw some wagons that had this done when I was shopping, owners indicated it was to save the trouble and cost of repair. FWIW, I have a self leveling rear on my '99 E320 wagon. The only problem I've had is the cost of the fluid. Mike Frank > Mike, > > Are your sure about that? When I have heard the idea of changing over mentioned > before (maybe on other lists.....) most people have said that the cost of > changing over and putting on a less functional and desirable system was both > expensive AND undesirable. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 12:28:59 -0600 From: "Kaleb C. Striplin" Subject: Re: [db] Engine shocks The shock has nothing to do with vibration, all it does is help stabilize the engine upon shutdown, to keep it from shaking the whole car. Sam Williams wrote: > Robert, > > Another unverifiable urban legend for you to worry over: > > I read on other lists that the engine shocks last forever but the bushings > don't and you can renew the shock absorbing action by replacing $2.00's > worth of bushings; you don't need to buy the $40.00 shock, itself. > > You must pull the shock to replace bushings, anyway. It's not hard. Grip > the rod with a small wrench on flat spot and unscrew nuts,... . > > My old shock was far looser than the replacement so my experience runs > counter to list wisdom. Of course, one data point can't disprove a trend. > > My 30 year old dash finally cracked, had been Armoralled at some point--same > on the 40 year old Ford. If the MTBF of un-armoralled vinyl dashboards > approaches or exceeds 50 years, Armorall may be as dangerous as 'they' say. > > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On > Behalf Of Robert Chase > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 4:15 AM > To: [db] (E-mail) > Subject: [db] Engine shocks > > Hmmm, > > My vibration is still around.... I suspect its probably a bad engine > shock........ Anybody got a good URL on how to replace this? Im > debating doing this myself...... Then again I might bring it in :) > > Robert Chase > > - -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 81 300TD 81 240D, 76 240D, 74 240D, 72 300SEL 4.5 Okie Benz Auto parts-email for used parts ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:33:44 -0600 From: "Sam Williams" Subject: RE: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD Ah John. You take life too seriously. Some blame the French for inventing Freedom Fries, too. Where would McDonalds, indeed the whole of American haut cuisine be without the French? ;-) Sam - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 12:01 PM To: Sam Williams Cc: diesel-benz list Subject: RE: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD oh man... you had to go and ruin it for me... ">-->changed from that introduced by the French in 1952. It uses a hydraulic" I guess the fact that it is changed does have some redeeming value... ;) john On Wed, 5 Jan 2005, Sam Williams wrote: >-->Sarah, >--> >-->In the middle of the last century, you could probably have found a mechanic >-->to tell you that "Them furriners don't know anything about cars. I never >-->heard of a Marsideez. You'll have nothing but trouble." At the same time, >-->luxury cars in Europe were being sold with a wonderful new suspension that >-->provided a more comfortable, more controllable ride than old style metal >-->springs (that had been new technology in Europe in the dark ages, at a time >-->most Americans hadn't learned about the wheel yet). It is more expensive >-->than steel springs but most luxury models of all brands sold in Europe now >-->use a similar system, as do a few American cars. >--> >-->The self-leveling suspension on your TD is a proven system, only slightly >-->changed from that introduced by the French in 1952. It uses a hydraulic >-->pump and is about as reliable as power steering. But, it relies on 'rubber' >-->parts that degrade over time and must be renewed every decade or so. >-->Typical maintenance involves checking fluid level as often as you check >-->power steering fluid and replacing the 'accumulators' (containing the rubber >-->diaphragms that degrade) every ten years or so. The accumulators cost ~$100 >-->each and you replace both at the same time; book time for replacement is >-->probably an hour though it takes only a few minutes per side for a >-->knowledgeable mechanic with a lift (or second and subsequent times for a >-->talented back-yard mechanic with jack stands). >--> >-->Suspension fluid is a special product, costs maybe $20/liter. Using the >-->wrong fluid can mess up the whole system and cause expensive repairs--just >-->like using pancake syrup instead of power steering fluid would. >--> >-->Unscrupulous or ignorant mechanics might claim you need expensive repairs >-->when you need only replace the accumulators--or an Oil-Changes-R-Us place >-->might top off the reservoir with the wrong fluid. Otherwise, self leveling >-->suspension should prove as trouble-free as power steering, cost as much to >-->maintain as brakes. It sure is nice when you have something heavy in the >-->back of your wagon and not only the steering geometry remains correct but >-->the headlights still brighten the road ahead instead of lighting the heavens >-->and blinding approaching drivers. >--> >-->Enjoy your new 300TD! >--> >-->Sam >--> >--> >--> >-->-----Original Message----- >-->From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On >-->Behalf Of Sarah Slack >-->Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 9:18 AM >-->To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >-->Subject: [db] Advice needed- 1981 300TD >--> >-->First, let me clarify- I'm not an official MB owner or >-->officianado yet, but I'm pretty excited about a >-->potential vehicle- a 1981 300TD with 240,000 miles on >-->it for $1700. It runs great, but I checked in with a >-->mechanic who has worked on this car in the past and he >-->had one significant worry that I need more advice on- >-->he mentioned the hydraulic rear suspension (same thing >-->as the self-levelling rear suspension?) has the >-->potential to go out on this car. There are no current >-->problems with it, but should I be anticipating >-->expensive repairs in the future? I'm competent enough >-->to do minor repairs and maintenance such as oil >-->changes, hose replacements, etc... but am not sure it >-->would be worth the price of the car if this repair was >-->too complex for me to do myself and the price too high >-->for me to take it to a shop. Any feedback? >-->Thanks! >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1698 **********************************