From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Wed Mar 9 18:55:15 2005 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, March 9 2005 Volume 01 : Number 1768 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] derick needs a new toy Re: [db] derick needs a new toy Re: [db] derick needs a new toy Re: [db] derick needs a new toy Re: [db] derick needs a new toy Re: w126 mileage (was Re: [db] derick needs a new toy) Re: [db] derick needs a new toy Re: w126 mileage (was Re: [db] derick needs a new toy) [db] Good Machine Shop on SF Peninsula? Re: [db] Good Machine Shop on SF Peninsula? Re: [db] W201 vs W124 Re: [db] W201 vs W124 Re: [db] W201 vs W124 Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:34:37 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] derick needs a new toy On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 02:26:57PM -0500, john wrote: > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, J.B. Hebert wrote: > > -->It was 7 this morning, with a windchill putting it at -8. Gotta love March > > -->in the Northeast. > > can't imagine, and don't want to, what that must feel like... 54 degrees > in the carport this morning... over 61 by the time I got to downtown > Seattle. A hazy 81 degrees in downtown walnut creek, with the windchill putting it at about 80. I really need to get that jeep fixed, it really is a better cold weather vehicle. :) > BTW, the new tstat in my 300d is running around 82-84 Deg C. I like > the old one better, it stayed right at 80, well, most of the time... > this one hasn't crept up like the other one was doing, so I guess > it's fine. Maybe I'll get better economy running a little warmer. You'd prefer it to run slightly warmer. Actually, you'd prefer it to run well into the red zone on the gauge, but the coolant that we run in them can't handle high temperatures like that, and engine damage results. Diesels prefer to be run warm. They get quieter, and economy and power go up, as combustion is more complete. Your indirect injection will also prefer to be run slightly warmer, as carbon deposits don't form as easily as the engine warms up. FWIW, the powerchoke runs a 203 degree thermostat, stock. There are guys that heat up their powerchokes and run 215 degree thermostats, sometimes hotter. > Also, driving in this morning was along side a Jeep KJ and noticed > the occupants were bouncing around... and I was riding along quite > smoothly... hmmm... need to rethink this Diesel KJ thing a bit. Well, if he wasn't trying to pass your slow diesel in the shoulder, he probably wouldn't be bouncing around so much. :) (Actually, I haven't been too impressed with KJs since their inception.) K ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:35:04 -0500 (EST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] derick needs a new toy how much more efficiency? john On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >-->On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 03:38:00PM -0500, john wrote: >-->> is the '87 the same 126 series I had with my '83 300SD? just a bit longer? >--> >-->Like Alec says, there were some revisions when things stopped being called >-->"SD" and became "SDL" in 86. I believe the rear end ratio also dropped, >-->allowing for a slightly better mileage at speed, and the transmission stopped >-->the annoying second gear start nonsense. Sunroof changed to the tilt and >-->slide somewhere around 86. As far as the engines go, the 603 supplied more >-->power, was more efficient, and was quieter than the 617, and did not require >-->valve adjustments. Just watch out for the head. >--> >-->K >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:40:45 -0500 (EST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] derick needs a new toy On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >-->On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 02:26:57PM -0500, john wrote: >-->> On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, J.B. Hebert wrote: >-->> > -->It was 7 this morning, with a windchill putting it at -8. Gotta love March >-->> > -->in the Northeast. >-->> can't imagine, and don't want to, what that must feel like... 54 degrees >-->> in the carport this morning... over 61 by the time I got to downtown >-->> Seattle. >--> >-->A hazy 81 degrees in downtown walnut creek, with the windchill putting it >-->at about 80. I really need to get that jeep fixed, it really is a better >-->cold weather vehicle. :) rofl... should I send down some thermal blankets and deicer for you mate? ;) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:40:02 -0500 (EST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] derick needs a new toy On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >-->> Also, driving in this morning was along side a Jeep KJ and noticed >-->> the occupants were bouncing around... and I was riding along quite >-->> smoothly... hmmm... need to rethink this Diesel KJ thing a bit. >--> >-->Well, if he wasn't trying to pass your slow diesel in the shoulder, he >-->probably wouldn't be bouncing around so much. :) >-->(Actually, I haven't been too impressed with KJs since their inception.) >-->K well, I was passing him... and my test drives reveal that the KJ's actually ride nicer than the WJs. I noticed that the WJ wasn't a glassy smooth ride the week I was forced to wait for parts from Germany. :) I guess moving from an XJ to a WJ was a step up... and then driving a 201 before the WJ made it seem smooth... I guess this 124 has me totally spoiled... just need to hook up the alarm so I have a remote entry setup and get those sheepskins. :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:44:48 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] derick needs a new toy On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 04:34:24PM -0500, john wrote: > seeing as how that is the 3.0L six cylinder, would that be > a worthy powerplant for a Jeep? Yes and no. The 603 with the aluminum head is probably lighter than the 617 with the iron head, even with the extra cylinder. The transmission actually starting in first could be advantageous offroad. The catch is that the engine is nowhere near as robust as the 617, and is noticeably longer than the 617. A 603 in a 124 is a shoehorn job, and getting to the oil filter is slightly annoying. Overheating once on the trail (which happens, even if you don't want it to) could be really bad, even if you only had to deal with the warped head - iron heads are a bit more resilient to overheating. > I prefered my 123 over the 126, not sure I'd want a longer 126, > and the car is black... another strike against it. ;) Having driven 123s and 126s, I prefer the 126. Then again, I like big cars. How I've gotten attached to the 190D baffles me (and most of my friends). Black isn't a problem - if things don't work out in washington, you can take the car with you and become a dictator in a third world country. K ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:53:23 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: w126 mileage (was Re: [db] derick needs a new toy) On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 04:35:04PM -0500, john wrote: > how much more efficiency? Probably 2-3 mpg more, and with a higher cruise speed. I thought you were the one with the table on his web site :) Anyways, a list member (can't remember his name off the top of my head - used to live in some place like Greenfield, CA, sold his SDL and moved to one of the Dakotas and bought a ford truck) used to get something like 28-29 on a rather hilly commute from his house to the bay area. Most people I've talked to say they get about 25 on the road with an SD, unless they are trying to sell the car, then it's usually about 35 mpg or so. :) K ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:13:27 -0500 (EST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] derick needs a new toy On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >-->> I prefered my 123 over the 126, not sure I'd want a longer 126, >-->> and the car is black... another strike against it. ;) >--> >-->Having driven 123s and 126s, I prefer the 126. Then again, I like big >-->cars. How I've gotten attached to the 190D baffles me (and most of my >-->friends). Black isn't a problem - if things don't work out in washington, >-->you can take the car with you and become a dictator in a third world country. >--> >-->K rofl... thanx. I needed that. john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:14:51 -0500 (EST) From: john Subject: Re: w126 mileage (was Re: [db] derick needs a new toy) On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >-->On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 04:35:04PM -0500, john wrote: >-->> how much more efficiency? >--> >-->Probably 2-3 mpg more, and with a higher cruise speed. I thought you were >-->the one with the table on his web site :) oh, yeah... what was that URL again? ;) >-->Anyways, a list member (can't remember his name off the top of my head - >-->used to live in some place like Greenfield, CA, sold his SDL and moved to >-->one of the Dakotas and bought a ford truck) used to get something like 28-29 >-->on a rather hilly commute from his house to the bay area. Most people I've >-->talked to say they get about 25 on the road with an SD, unless they are trying >-->to sell the car, then it's usually about 35 mpg or so. :) >-->K my 126 actually did better than my non-turbo 123. the 123 got around 23-25 in town while the 126 got 24-26. john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:11:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jerome Kaidor Subject: [db] Good Machine Shop on SF Peninsula? Hi, Anybody know of a good machine shop on the San Francisco Peninsula or thereabouts? I need to get a valve job etc done on a Jaguar cylinder head. I used to use Al Leist in San Mateo, but the phone's been disconnected, and I guess they're out of business.... - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:32:04 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] Good Machine Shop on SF Peninsula? On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 02:11:22PM -0800, Jerome Kaidor wrote: > Anybody know of a good machine shop on the San Francisco Peninsula or > thereabouts? I need to get a valve job etc done on a Jaguar cylinder head. > I used to use Al Leist in San Mateo, but the phone's been disconnected, and > I guess they're out of business.... Jerry, Don's Diesel Machine is doing the work on the 350SD head for my poor 300D. He is located in Concord, which is probably a bit far for you, but seems knowledgeable in european gas engines as well as both domestic and foreign diesels. I can forward you his number if that isn't too far for you. The only other automotive machinist I've heard good things about is in San Luis Obispo, but I'm almost positive that's too far for you. K ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:58:01 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] W201 vs W124 On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 09:42:23AM -0600, acordova-at-texas.net wrote: > I'm starting to think more often about what might be my sixth Benz, > especially if my current 89 300CE has simply reached money pit stage. Hm. I thought you mostly went through it, even though it sounds like it's getting close to head work time. > I enjoy DRIVING, so I'm afraid I may not be happy with another W123 or > even a W126, never mind a nice W116 '80 300SD. This leaves W124s and W201s. I'd say that a W116 is a fantastic driver's car, even though it borders on land barge. It also has one of the best rides of any car I've been in. I've greatly considered picking up a W116 diesel for a commute car, rather than using the W124. The W201 is much more economical, but the stick shift causes problems with my wrist if I get stuck in traffic. An acquaintance in Arizona used to autocross his 80 300SD, and was rather competitive with it. Also, a W116 450SEL appeared in the SCCA trans-am races for a couple of years in the late seventies/early eighties, and never placed outside the top ten. Aside from missing an interior, it wasn't too different from stock... > Can anyone who's lived with both offer opinions about their experience? They are two completely different cars. > Is the rear seat of a W201 too cramped for the occasional full size > passenger? If you're 6'2 like me, the rear seat is useless behind the driver. If the passenger is short, the back seat is okay. This is why I started looking for a good 124, since I was already familiar with the suspension on a 201 - they are virtually identical, except in size. When my brother (who is 5'8) uses it, the back seat is somewhat useable, just not to a tall person like me. Oddly enough, though, the 190D offers more driver legroom than the 300D does. > Is the smaller 201 more engaging to drive than a 124, even if I don't > get a 190E 2.3-16? By far, then again, I have a five speed. The 190D is much more fun on windy mountain roads than the 300D, even though the 300D has twice the power. The 190D is much more nimble and much more responsive (except in throttle). I can fling the 190D around and it goes exactly where I want it to. The 190D has better balance as well, the 300D feels incredibly nose heavy. The 300D is still remarkable, but you notice the extra weight in braking and in cornering. And my 300D has sportline swaybars, my 190D is stock. The ride of the W124 is much better than the 190D, though. > Should I just hold out for a pristine 87 W124 300D? I recommend to people who like my car to spend the extra money on a nicer 90-93 like John's. I am extremely pleased with mine, and you DO notice the extra power offered by that sixth cylinder (though you notice the extra weight up front too), but think the 2.5 is a better match for the car. The money not spent on the car is easily swallowed up when the head causes you problems. John's car regularly gets better mileage than mine, and actually gives my NA four banger 190D a run for its money. This assumes that you have given more of a premium to the space and comfort a midsize offers, than to the agility and ease of parking that a compact offers. If you find yourself in the bay area before you decide, you're welcome to a comparison. K - -- 85 190D 2.2/five speed 87 300D turbo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:36:13 -0500 (EST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] W201 vs W124 On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >-->throttle). I can fling the 190D around and it goes exactly where I want it >-->to. The 190D has better balance as well, the 300D feels incredibly nose >-->heavy. The 300D is still remarkable, but you notice the extra weight in >-->braking and in cornering. And my 300D has sportline swaybars, my 190D >-->is stock. >-->The ride of the W124 is much better than the 190D, though. I found out that tire pressure makes an incredible difference in the handling of my 124. I recently had all the BF Goodrich Traction T/As replaced (and the four wheel alignment, again) and Discount tire pumped the pressure up to either 32 or 35 psi all the way around... I can tell the ride difference and figured it might help economy so I'm leaving it for now... However, heading to church Sunday I took one of my favorite on ramps at the speed limit and noticed the dreaded understeer and could feel the front tires slipping... whereas before the entire car would go into a mild and controlled four wheel drift. I'll drop the pressure down to the recommended "full load" and try it again next Sunday. :) Either way, the understeer was mild and well behaved, unlike most american iron. btw, the speed limit is 45 mph, right hand turn... I think the difference between the 201 and the 124 isn't that significant in the handling department... speed limits just ain't high enough in the states to separate them by much. ;) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:54:12 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [db] W201 vs W124 On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 06:36:13PM -0500, john wrote: > I found out that tire pressure makes an incredible difference in the > handling of my 124. I recently had all the BF Goodrich Traction T/As > replaced (and the four wheel alignment, again) and Discount tire pumped > the pressure up to either 32 or 35 psi all the way around... I can > tell the ride difference and figured it might help economy so I'm > leaving it for now... Tire pressure does make a difference. There was some trick the previous owner of my 300D mentioned about not having the pressures the same front to rear. Can't remember offhand, suppose I could just check the car and let you know what he set it at. > However, heading to church Sunday I took one of my favorite on ramps > at the speed limit and noticed the dreaded understeer and could feel > the front tires slipping... whereas before the entire car would > go into a mild and controlled four wheel drift. If you're only getting into a mild four wheel drift, you're not leaning on it hard enough. Then again, I don't have an audible g-meter sitting in the passenger seat :) > Either way, the understeer was mild and well behaved, unlike most > american iron. While understeer has never been a problem with my american iron, none of them are necessarily well behaved - manhandling is often required. > btw, the speed limit is 45 mph, right hand turn... I think the > difference between the 201 and the 124 isn't that significant in > the handling department... speed limits just ain't high enough in > the states to separate them by much. ;) We're talking diesels here, so even with speed limits higher, you wouldn't necessarily notice there either. Freeway onramps and offramps are good, as are windy roads that have a speed limit of 55, but iis rather difficult to maintain that in anything but a motorcycle. And you really do notice the nose-heaviness of a 300D with the six cylinder. It actually lends the car to oversteer much easier, as opposed to being more neutral like the 190D. If I was picking out a race car, and didn't do something nostalgic with a 450SEL, it would be a W201 hands down, and not a W124. And it's not because of the available manual trans (there were five speed 300Es), and it's not because of the 16v engine either (the 300E-24v was quite a monster too, and wasn't overly nose-heavy like a diesel or v8), but because the car is lighter and much more nimble. Wonder if JB's noticed his 95 300D as being noseheavy, or if it isn't as bad for him because he came from a noseheavy 123 coupe... K ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1768 **********************************