From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Mon Aug 8 08:01:32 2005 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Monday, August 8 2005 Volume 01 : Number 1911 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] One SICK kitty! Re: [db] One SICK kitty! Re: [db] One SICK kitty! Re: [db] One SICK kitty! Re: [db] One SICK kitty! [db] fan on the 124 Re: [db] fan on the 124 Re: [db] fan on the 124 Re: [db] fan on the 124 Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 08:00:00 -0700 From: john meister Subject: Re: [db] One SICK kitty! Jason, Where are you? I have this 1980 240D sitting in my driveway with about 240k on it, the engine moves ok by hand until it hits compression, has been sitting for 2 years... bad tranny/windshield/paint... no time... I'm just north of Seattle... all I'm into it so far is the towing expense... I was helping someone out that had to move and might still put this back together or just part it... haven't decided yet... just got back from Tokyo. I could possibly ship this engine, but I'd have to buy a shop crane and such... I'm not sure what these engines are worth but it might be less expensive for you to buy this one for whatever it costs me and shipping via freight... thoughts? john Jason R Bassett wrote: > Oh my laundry. You don't want to hear what I have to fix, but I'm going > to tell you anyway.....and BEG for feedback! > > I decided today that I needed to do the kitty fix sooner or later, and > today was a beautiful day, so decided to get tough and take it apart and > see what it needed. I was expecting a bad head gasket, and was pleased > that everything came apart pretty easily (although I did have to modify > the 12pt head bolt tool a bit^Wit was hex shank and needed to be round.) I > was feeling good about the process....until the head came off. I was not > prepared for what I saw. > > The head gasket was perfect, and needed nothing. However, all of our > worst fears were realized^W#2 threw the piston rings. There are pieces of > mangled ring all over the top of the piston, the walls are scored > somewhat, and to complete the grisly scene, there's a hole burned right > down the side of the piston. I was too sickened and stunned to think > coherently for a few minutes. I nearly threw in the towel. > > However, I got to looking in the book, and decided that a busted-up > piston would not be the proverbial "kiss of death" on the project.....it > would just make it a lot longer, more frustrating, and more expensive. I > spent the remainder of the day getting more things disassembled, and the > next step is to remove the bottom of the engine casting (pan thingy) and > actually remove the piston. I have a loaner ridge reamer from Autozone, > so I think that I can get it apart. (I will have to borrow a ring > compressor, torque wrench and some good metric sockets to reassemble the > stuff, though.) > > So....the questions come. My plan is to take the old piston out, and put > the new one in without honing it. I know I should hone it, since it is > scored, and probably enough to be considered seriously scored, but I > can't bring myself to do it. I am afraid to take too much off and make it > so that the rings don't even touch. I figure it will wear itself in after > awhile, and I really don't care if it's done right....only if it works. > (I plan to get a rebuilt engine whenever I can afford it anyway.) If > anybody thinks that the consequences of NOT honing it could be serious, > let me know. Also, I am planning on replacing the head gasket, but is > that actually necessary? I figure they're a once-compressed used-up item, > but maybe not. If it would probably fail soon if I reused it, I'd rather > not. While I do plan to replace the motor, I don't want to have to tear > into this one again! Furthermore, is there any particular thing I might > have done to cause it to throw the rings, or is this just something these > do once in awhile? (I strongly suspect the latter.) > > And now the requests. If anybody has a used but good piston for my kitty, > (616.616) I would be interested in knowing on what terms you would part > with it. No sense putting a new piston in an engine I don't plan to keep > for too much longer. Also, if anybody knows any great tricks, let me > know. (Keep in mind that I have minimal tools^WI don't even have a > ratchet...I use my small breaker bar since the ratchet committed suicide, > and it works well enough.) > > I shall say more later.....right now all I have to say is UGH! > > Jason > > SICK Kitty 1981 240D ~300K, BAD piston! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 08:02:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jerry Kaidor" Subject: Re: [db] One SICK kitty! a> > So....the questions come. My plan is to take the old piston out, and put > the new one in without honing it. I know I should hone it, since it is > scored, and probably enough to be considered seriously scored, but I > can't bring myself to do it. *** I would hone, at least lightly. Otherwise your new rings will either not seat, or quickly break, and you'll be right back where you started. In fact, I predict that the new rings will break even if you hone. Because ring breakage is usually caused by a change in the geometry of the cylinder. The cylinder gets worn oval, in line with the thrust vectors on the piston, and conical. The upper end of a used cylinder is larger in diameter than the lower end. How much of a ridge is there at the top? That's how much it's conical. The increase in upper diameter causes the rings to "work" harder, springing in and out as the piston goes up & down. So they break. These diesels aren't *wet sleeve* engines, by any chance, are they? - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 08:57:53 -0700 From: "John E Culver" Subject: Re: [db] One SICK kitty! Mercedes are dry sleeve. It must be bored after installing sleeve. I have a spare on the shelf in my computer room. John ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:43:50 -0400 From: Jason R Bassett Subject: Re: [db] One SICK kitty! > *** I would hone, at least lightly. Otherwise your new rings will > either > not seat, or quickly break, and you'll be right back where you > started. > In fact, I predict that the new rings will break even if you hone. How far down the road? I only want another 15-30 grand out of it^Wabout another year or so. I want a rebuilt motor and tranny as soon as I can afford them. Won't the rings sorta self-hone the walls after awhile? > Because ring breakage is usually caused by a change in the > geometry of > the cylinder. The cylinder gets worn oval, in line with the thrust > vectors > on the piston, and conical. The upper end of a used cylinder is > larger > in diameter than the lower end. How much of a ridge is there at the > top? > That's how much it's conical. The increase in upper diameter causes > the > rings to "work" harder, springing in and out as the piston goes up & > down. > So they break. There is very little ridge at the top.....VERY little. I expected much more, but in fact there is only enough to notice, but it really is not very pronounced. As for oval wear, I did suspect a tiny bit of that, but not a lot. Perhaps the rings falling out was just a fluke. I do know that one cylinder was weak when I bought the car, and now I am pretty sure that it was #2. Best case scenario, if I just drop a "new" piston with new rings in, how long could it possibly last? Worst case, how soon could it possibly fail? Thanks guys.....you're great! Jason ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:49:07 -0400 From: Jason R Bassett Subject: Re: [db] One SICK kitty! On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 08:00:00 -0700 john meister writes: > Jason, > > Where are you? I'm in Ohio. > I have this 1980 240D sitting in my driveway with about 240k on > it, the engine moves ok by hand until it hits compression, has > been sitting for 2 years... bad tranny/windshield/paint... no > time... > > I'm just north of Seattle... all I'm into it so far is the towing > expense... > > I was helping someone out that had to move and might still put this > back together or just part it... haven't decided yet... just got > back > from Tokyo. For whatever it's worth, I'd actually prefer it if you fixed the tranny and sold it to me intact. I wanted a manual anyway, and it would be probably cheaper and easier to ship the whole thing than for me to also buy a shop crane and more tools and more junk, plus the body MIGHT be better than mine. Then all I'd be left with would be migrating my windshield into the new one. (Though mine's not perfect....) How bad is the windshield? Can you give me an estimate for a running Meister-D with a fixed manual tranny and nothing else done to it? > I could possibly ship this engine, but I'd have to buy a shop crane > and such... I'm not sure what these engines are worth but it might > be less expensive for you to buy this one for whatever it costs me > and shipping via freight... thoughts? > > john > > Jason R Bassett wrote: > > Oh my laundry. You don't want to hear what I have to fix, but I'm > going > > to tell you anyway.....and BEG for feedback! > > > > I decided today that I needed to do the kitty fix sooner or later, > and > > today was a beautiful day, so decided to get tough and take it > apart and > > see what it needed. I was expecting a bad head gasket, and was > pleased > > that everything came apart pretty easily (although I did have to > modify > > the 12pt head bolt tool a bit^Wit was hex shank and needed to be > round.) I > > was feeling good about the process....until the head came off. I > was not > > prepared for what I saw. > > > > The head gasket was perfect, and needed nothing. However, all of > our > > worst fears were realized^W#2 threw the piston rings. There are > pieces of > > mangled ring all over the top of the piston, the walls are scored > > somewhat, and to complete the grisly scene, there's a hole burned > right > > down the side of the piston. I was too sickened and stunned to > think > > coherently for a few minutes. I nearly threw in the towel. > > > > However, I got to looking in the book, and decided that a > busted-up > > piston would not be the proverbial "kiss of death" on the > project.....it > > would just make it a lot longer, more frustrating, and more > expensive. I > > spent the remainder of the day getting more things disassembled, > and the > > next step is to remove the bottom of the engine casting (pan > thingy) and > > actually remove the piston. I have a loaner ridge reamer from > Autozone, > > so I think that I can get it apart. (I will have to borrow a ring > > compressor, torque wrench and some good metric sockets to > reassemble the > > stuff, though.) > > > > So....the questions come. My plan is to take the old piston out, > and put > > the new one in without honing it. I know I should hone it, since > it is > > scored, and probably enough to be considered seriously scored, but > I > > can't bring myself to do it. I am afraid to take too much off and > make it > > so that the rings don't even touch. I figure it will wear itself > in after > > awhile, and I really don't care if it's done right....only if it > works. > > (I plan to get a rebuilt engine whenever I can afford it anyway.) > If > > anybody thinks that the consequences of NOT honing it could be > serious, > > let me know. Also, I am planning on replacing the head gasket, but > is > > that actually necessary? I figure they're a once-compressed > used-up item, > > but maybe not. If it would probably fail soon if I reused it, I'd > rather > > not. While I do plan to replace the motor, I don't want to have to > tear > > into this one again! Furthermore, is there any particular thing I > might > > have done to cause it to throw the rings, or is this just > something these > > do once in awhile? (I strongly suspect the latter.) > > > > And now the requests. If anybody has a used but good piston for my > kitty, > > (616.616) I would be interested in knowing on what terms you would > part > > with it. No sense putting a new piston in an engine I don't plan > to keep > > for too much longer. Also, if anybody knows any great tricks, let > me > > know. (Keep in mind that I have minimal tools^WI don't even have a > > ratchet...I use my small breaker bar since the ratchet committed > suicide, > > and it works well enough.) > > > > I shall say more later.....right now all I have to say is UGH! > > > > Jason > > > > SICK Kitty 1981 240D ~300K, BAD piston! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 20:58:10 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: [db] fan on the 124 Ok, looks like shadowfax's fan has given up the ghost... I've done the fan on the 123 and 126... what's it going to be like on the 124???? '91 300D with the 2.5L TD.... I may just drop the price and sell it... ;) too many other repair tasks right now... rofl... haven't even unpacked yet from Japan... Just put 10 gallons of Veggie oil in the Jimmy and took the top off... drove it around a bit, this thing needs some tlc... tires are terrible... got the radio working... needs paint... the 240D sits there, I've opened the hood a few times, starting to do something and get sent off somewhere, you know, Tokyo, Taco Bell... never have a few minutes to play with it. Anyway, how bad will this fan be??? john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:15:28 -0500 From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: Re: [db] fan on the 124 The blower on a W124 isn't as bad as that legendary beast in the older ones, was it the W108 or the W114 that basically required you to cut through the firewall to reach the heater blower? But it's world's apart from the simplicity of a W123. Expect almost two hours to get the old one out, plus a couple of broken plastic parts, then a little less to get it back in. If no one else does it by the time I get back home, I can send you some info from the CD. Or do you already have the W124 CD set? Steve Nervig's replacement index for the CDs also includes a writeup on replacing the blower. Alec Quoting john : > Ok, looks like shadowfax's fan has given up the ghost... > > I've done the fan on the 123 and 126... what's it going to > be like on the 124???? '91 300D with the 2.5L TD.... > > I may just drop the price and sell it... ;) too many other repair > tasks right now... rofl... > > haven't even unpacked yet from Japan... > > Just put 10 gallons of Veggie oil in the Jimmy and took the > top off... drove it around a bit, this thing needs some tlc... tires > are terrible... got the radio working... needs paint... > > the 240D sits there, I've opened the hood a few times, starting to do > something and get sent off somewhere, you know, Tokyo, Taco Bell... never > have a few minutes to play with it. > > > Anyway, how bad will this fan be??? > > > > john > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:37:36 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] fan on the 124 I've got the 124 CD... but what? you think I have time to read a manual? ;) john On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 acordova-at-texas.net wrote: >-->The blower on a W124 isn't as bad as that legendary beast in the older ones, >-->was it the W108 or the W114 that basically required you to cut through the >-->firewall to reach the heater blower? >--> >-->But it's world's apart from the simplicity of a W123. Expect almost two hours >-->to get the old one out, plus a couple of broken plastic parts, then a little >-->less to get it back in. >--> >-->If no one else does it by the time I get back home, I can send you some info >-->from the CD. Or do you already have the W124 CD set? Steve Nervig's >-->replacement index for the CDs also includes a writeup on replacing the blower. >--> >-->Alec >--> >-->Quoting john : >--> >-->> Ok, looks like shadowfax's fan has given up the ghost... >-->> >-->> I've done the fan on the 123 and 126... what's it going to >-->> be like on the 124???? '91 300D with the 2.5L TD.... >-->> >-->> I may just drop the price and sell it... ;) too many other repair >-->> tasks right now... rofl... >-->> >-->> haven't even unpacked yet from Japan... >-->> >-->> Just put 10 gallons of Veggie oil in the Jimmy and took the >-->> top off... drove it around a bit, this thing needs some tlc... tires >-->> are terrible... got the radio working... needs paint... >-->> >-->> the 240D sits there, I've opened the hood a few times, starting to do >-->> something and get sent off somewhere, you know, Tokyo, Taco Bell... never >-->> have a few minutes to play with it. >-->> >-->> >-->> Anyway, how bad will this fan be??? >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> john >-->> >-->> ---- >-->> >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >-->> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> >-->> >--> >--> >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:00:07 -0500 From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: Re: [db] fan on the 124 You're gonna want to find time to read it before attacking a W124 blower. IIRC, the CD doesn't describe how to remove the plastic grate over the vent air intake, but I think it's covered in the writeup inclulded with Steve's index. You have to remove the windshield wiper and access the blower from there. Alec Quoting john : > > I've got the 124 CD... but what? you think I have > time to read a manual? ;) > > john > > On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 acordova-at-texas.net wrote: > > >-->The blower on a W124 isn't as bad as that legendary beast in the older > ones, > >-->was it the W108 or the W114 that basically required you to cut through > the > >-->firewall to reach the heater blower? > >--> > >-->But it's world's apart from the simplicity of a W123. Expect almost two > hours > >-->to get the old one out, plus a couple of broken plastic parts, then a > little > >-->less to get it back in. > >--> > >-->If no one else does it by the time I get back home, I can send you some > info > >-->from the CD. Or do you already have the W124 CD set? Steve Nervig's > >-->replacement index for the CDs also includes a writeup on replacing the > blower. > >--> > >-->Alec > >--> > >-->Quoting john : > >--> > >-->> Ok, looks like shadowfax's fan has given up the ghost... > >-->> > >-->> I've done the fan on the 123 and 126... what's it going to > >-->> be like on the 124???? '91 300D with the 2.5L TD.... > >-->> > >-->> I may just drop the price and sell it... ;) too many other repair > >-->> tasks right now... rofl... > >-->> > >-->> haven't even unpacked yet from Japan... > >-->> > >-->> Just put 10 gallons of Veggie oil in the Jimmy and took the > >-->> top off... drove it around a bit, this thing needs some tlc... tires > >-->> are terrible... got the radio working... needs paint... > >-->> > >-->> the 240D sits there, I've opened the hood a few times, starting to do > > >-->> something and get sent off somewhere, you know, Tokyo, Taco Bell... > never > >-->> have a few minutes to play with it. > >-->> > >-->> > >-->> Anyway, how bad will this fan be??? > >-->> > >-->> > >-->> > >-->> john > >-->> > >-->> ---- > >-->> > >-->> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-->> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > >-->> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html > ** > >-->> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-->> > >-->> > >--> > >--> > >--> > >--> > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1911 **********************************