From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Tue Aug 23 18:17:45 2005 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Wednesday, August 24 2005 Volume 01 : Number 1930 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] Heater Re: [db] start-up of 1984 300d Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) RE: [db] Heater Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) RE: [db] Heater Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:14:13 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] Heater from what I've heard it has a higher gel point... meaning that it gets stiff earlier than dino diesel and the additives to lower it's gel point are different... I can tell you right now that veggie oil isn't happy even at 70+ degrees. ;) john On Mon, 22 Aug 2005, Alec Cordova wrote: >-->Isn't part of the point of converting veggie oil into biodiesel that the >-->process removes the paraffin? Makes nifty soap, and removes the waxy stuff >-->that solidifies at lower temps. >--> >-->So how close is the cold weather behavior of biodiesel to the cold weather >-->behavior of dino diesel? >--> >-->> -----Original Message----- >-->> From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net >-->> [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Jim Hoffman >-->> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:14 PM >-->> To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >-->> Subject: Re: [db] Heater >-->> >-->> >-->> I thought it was great! But I'm not planning on running waste veggie >-->> oil. I was thinking that it could help me if I want to run real >-->> bio diesel in the winter thought... >-->> >-->> Jim >-->> >-->> > So.........does anybody like my heater? Or did I waste almost an hour >-->> > writing it out? At least I saved it so I don't have to write it out >-->> > again..... >-->> > >-->> > Jason >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:17:10 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: [db] start-up of 1984 300d Jason R Bassett wrote: I would suspect it is not firing on all 5 cylinders because a glow plug(s) is shot. It will start a bit hard in the summer if this is the case, and very hard to not at all in the winter. Easy to tell then. Replace all the glow plugs and the glow plug relay. www.autohausaz.com has a kit that replaces it all. It's easy to do. That's totally unnecessary unless you enjoy spending money. The relay either works or doesn't, and you can test the glow plugs by unplugging their harness from the relay, then running an alligator wire from the battery terminal and just touching the tops of the glow plug terminal bolts with it. If it sparks, the plug is OK. If it doesn't, it's burned out. I drove one in northern MI in January, and this test was all that was required. Once in awhile it would not catch on one cylinder, and I would test it to find out which glow plug had died. (By the way, be gentle on the wire connector nut. Ask me how I know this.......) Now somebody will give you a spiel about resistances and timing and the lot. It does not matter at all on these. Why? The glow plugs don't shut off as soon as the light goes out. (I can prove this on mine, and I think yours would be the same.) The light goes out when it thinks that they are hot enough to light off, but the plugs stay on for 30 seconds to a minute after this. Keeps things happy during the cold season of Starteria....... I had trouble starting my '84 300D Turbo a few years back. The MB Factory manual outlines a quick test for the relay, using a VOM. Mine tested bad (took about 10 minutes to do the whole test) and a new ($120) relay cured the problem. GPs can be easily tested from the relay cap by measuring the resistance of each one. IIRC the resistance should be about 0.7 ohms each. any that varies widely from the others is suspect. The recommended test is so easy and fast I would not go "quick and dirty" on these tests. Nor would I spend a couple hundred bucks on new parts unless I confirmed the old parts bad. Greg Fiorentino Vancouver USA '86 300 SDL '84 300D Turbo '79 300TD '85 6.9L F350 Crew Cab ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:08:39 -0400 From: Jason R Bassett Subject: Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) > yes I have heard of copper to copper solder coming undone... > > solder is a very maleable metal, That's why I used silver solder. Much stronger. Jason > vibrations from a Diesel would > tend to cause minor fractures that would get worse over time. In > addition the coefficient of expansion would start to come into > play. It'd last for a few years though, maybe even longer > than a radiator... but radiators eventually fail for very similar > reasons. > > btw, I'll put the pictures in: > > http://JohnMeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/Veggie-Tales/JB-Heater > > > john > > On Sun, 21 Aug 2005, Jason R Bassett wrote: > > >-->> I'm still having trouble visualizing this... ;) > >--> > >-->Here are my not-so-technical drawings...... if you would put > them on the > >-->server and post links on the list that'd be great. > >--> > >-->> does the fuel line run through the heater hose? then out > >-->> through the T? seems to me that's a good way of transferring > >-->> heat, but could be a reliability issue over time, especially > >-->> in a 4x4. I'll wait for the pictures/drawings. :) > >--> > >-->Sounds like you have the idea. Reliability? Have you ever heard > of copper > >-->soldered to copper coming undone from anything other than a) > Heat greater > >-->than 400 degrees, or b) Serious mechanical wrenching? It just > doesn't > >-->happen...copper solders WAY too well. I have never heard of > copper > >-->solders breaking from vibration, and your cooling system had > better not > >-->get to 400 degrees, or more than just solder will be in trouble! > I would > >-->consider the only weak link to be the heater hose, which does > break down > >-->over time. > >--> > >-->Jason > > ---- > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html > ** > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:13:50 -0400 From: Jason R Bassett Subject: Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) > http://JohnMeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/Veggie-Tales/JB-Heater Hey, that's cool! Great job, John! Now when do I become famous? 8^) Jason ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:19:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerome Kaidor Subject: Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) Jason R Bassett wrote: > > > yes I have heard of copper to copper solder coming undone... > > > > solder is a very maleable metal, > > That's why I used silver solder. Much stronger. > *** What percentage silver did you use? I was doing some research on silver solder for another project and discovered that there are umpteen kinds of it. The lower-percentage kinds ( say, 4% ) are just a little stronger than radio solder, but can be soldered with an ordinary iron. I found it available as strong as 30%, where you get into torches etc. - Jerry Kaidor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:46:32 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) Jerome Kaidor wrote: Jason R Bassett wrote: yes I have heard of copper to copper solder coming undone... solder is a very maleable metal, That's why I used silver solder. Much stronger. *** What percentage silver did you use? I was doing some research on silver solder for another project and discovered that there are umpteen kinds of it. The lower-percentage kinds ( say, 4% ) are just a little stronger than radio solder, but can be soldered with an ordinary iron. I found it available as strong as 30%, where you get into torches etc. - Jerry Kaidor I once worked for a company that built clean rooms for manufacturing chips. They had copper gas lines that were hard-soldered with a type of silver-solder. It required Mapp gas or acetylene but no flux (there was no flux core either), and was much stiffer than regular silver-solder. it had a shape about like uncooked linguine. It worked like a champ if the surfaces were clean and close-fitting. This would definitely be the stuff to use here. Greg Fiorentino Vancouver USA '86 300 SDL '84 300D Turbo '79 300TD '85 6.9L F350 Crew Cab ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:05:57 -0400 From: "Jim Hoffman" Subject: RE: [db] Heater Alec, John was correct in his comment, the *cloud point* of biodiesel is actually higher than dinodiesel. It starts to gell at 32 degrees. Antigell agents are different though I haven't investigated them yet. The point of converting vegie oil to biodiesel is to remove the glycerin. THAT makes nifty soap ;) I don't know that there is paraffin in biodiesel. And isn't it ironic that the paraffin in dinodiesel is what causes it to gell yet it is also the pariffin that makes a higher cetane rating! So the better the fuel burns the quicker it gells! Jim > Isn't part of the point of converting veggie oil into biodiesel that the > process removes the paraffin? Makes nifty soap, and removes the waxy stuff > that solidifies at lower temps. > > So how close is the cold weather behavior of biodiesel to the cold weather > behavior of dino diesel? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net > > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Jim Hoffman > > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:14 PM > > To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > > Subject: Re: [db] Heater > > > > > > I thought it was great! But I'm not planning on running waste veggie > > oil. I was thinking that it could help me if I want to run real > > bio diesel in the winter thought... > > > > Jim > > > > > So.........does anybody like my heater? Or did I waste almost an hour > > > writing it out? At least I saved it so I don't have to write it out > > > again..... > > > > > > Jason ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:12:05 -0400 From: Jason R Bassett Subject: Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) > I once worked for a company that built clean rooms for manufacturing > chips. They had copper gas lines that were hard-soldered with a > type of > silver-solder. It required Mapp gas or acetylene but no flux (there > was > no flux core either), and was much stiffer than regular > silver-solder. > it had a shape about like uncooked linguine. It worked like a champ > if > the surfaces were clean and close-fitting. This would definitely be > the > stuff to use here. ......Are you sure? Mapp and acetylene both would be rather risky to use on the final tubing join.....remember, the pipe is connected to the hose already; even heater hose can only take so much........ Jason ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:13:54 -0400 From: Jason R Bassett Subject: Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) > *** What percentage silver did you use? > Beats me...it was for plumbing, and definitely a torch op....I don't know if that stuff will melt with an iron or not, but it certainly is not for the faint-of-heart iron! Jason > I was doing some research on silver solder for another project > and > discovered that there are umpteen kinds of it. The lower-percentage > kinds > ( say, 4% ) are just a little stronger than radio solder, but can be > soldered > with an ordinary iron. I found it available as strong as 30%, where > you get into > torches etc. > > - Jerry Kaidor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:06:53 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Jason R Bassett wrote: >-->> http://JohnMeister.com/DieselBenz/TECH/Veggie-Tales/JB-Heater >--> >-->Hey, that's cool! Great job, John! >--> >-->Now when do I become famous? 8^) soon as the spammers harvest that email adddress, I need to set my scripts up to convert emails so the at sign doesn't show. ;) john >--> >-->Jason >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:07:48 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) also for the plumbing type solders you need to use an acid flux or core. john On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Jerome Kaidor wrote: >-->Jason R Bassett wrote: >-->> >-->> > yes I have heard of copper to copper solder coming undone... >-->> > >-->> > solder is a very maleable metal, >-->> >-->> That's why I used silver solder. Much stronger. >-->> >-->*** What percentage silver did you use? >--> >--> I was doing some research on silver solder for another project and >-->discovered that there are umpteen kinds of it. The lower-percentage kinds >-->( say, 4% ) are just a little stronger than radio solder, but can be soldered >-->with an ordinary iron. I found it available as strong as 30%, where you get into >-->torches etc. >--> >--> - Jerry Kaidor >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:45:39 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] Heater On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Jim Hoffman wrote: >-->Alec, >--> >--> John was correct in his comment, the *cloud point* of biodiesel is >-->actually higher than dinodiesel. It starts to gell at 32 degrees. >-->Antigell agents are different though I haven't investigated them >-->yet. actually that wouldn't be a problem in Seattle... we can count the times the mercury dips below 32 degrees on one hand usually, and you could probably use the other hand to count the number of days that happens... :) >-->The point of converting vegie oil to biodiesel is to remove the >-->glycerin. THAT makes nifty soap ;) I don't know that there is >-->paraffin in biodiesel. And isn't it ironic that the paraffin in >-->dinodiesel is what causes it to gell yet it is also the pariffin that >-->makes a higher cetane rating! So the better the fuel burns the >-->quicker it gells! interesting stuff... john >--> >-->Jim >--> >-->> Isn't part of the point of converting veggie oil into biodiesel that the >-->> process removes the paraffin? Makes nifty soap, and removes the waxy stuff >-->> that solidifies at lower temps. >-->> >-->> So how close is the cold weather behavior of biodiesel to the cold weather >-->> behavior of dino diesel? >-->> >-->> > -----Original Message----- >-->> > From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net >-->> > [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Jim Hoffman >-->> > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:14 PM >-->> > To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >-->> > Subject: Re: [db] Heater >-->> > >-->> > >-->> > I thought it was great! But I'm not planning on running waste veggie >-->> > oil. I was thinking that it could help me if I want to run real >-->> > bio diesel in the winter thought... >-->> > >-->> > Jim >-->> > >-->> > > So.........does anybody like my heater? Or did I waste almost an hour >-->> > > writing it out? At least I saved it so I don't have to write it out >-->> > > again..... >-->> > > >-->> > > Jason >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:14:04 -0700 From: Greg Fiorentino Subject: Re: [db] Oil Heater (resend) Jason R Bassett wrote: I once worked for a company that built clean rooms for manufacturing chips. They had copper gas lines that were hard-soldered with a type of silver-solder. It required Mapp gas or acetylene but no flux (there was no flux core either), and was much stiffer than regular silver-solder. it had a shape about like uncooked linguine. It worked like a champ if the surfaces were clean and close-fitting. This would definitely be the stuff to use here. ......Are you sure? Mapp and acetylene both would be rather risky to use on the final tubing join.....remember, the pipe is connected to the hose already; even heater hose can only take so much........ Jason That's a good point, Jason. I actually was thinking about that when I wrote out the message. I was kinda thinking you could push the rubber tubing back (compress it a bit) away from the hot fitting while the soldering was being done. On such a long length you might be able to get a few inches of clearance. That, coupled with some wet rags might do the trick. THis stuff definitely needs more heat than regular soft silver solders. Greg Fiorentino Vancouver USA '86 300 SDL '84 300D Turbo '79 300TD '85 6.9L F350 Crew Cab ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1930 **********************************