From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Fri Sep 2 06:38:52 2005 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Friday, September 2 2005 Volume 01 : Number 1942 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] searching for a W124 2.5(602) RE: [db] searching for a W124 2.5(602) RE: [db] searching for a W124 2.5(602) RE: [db] searching for a W124 2.5(602) [db] Jet - A fuel? Re: [db] Jet - A fuel? Re: [db] Jet - A fuel? RE: [db] Jet - A fuel? [db] 190D Ran out of fuel.... Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:57:55 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] searching for a W124 2.5(602) On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 scott_haaland-at-agilent.com wrote: >-->Hi John, >--> >-->Re: Mileage of your old 190D 2.2L - normally aspirated: Formerly known as >-->"Cream Puff" if memory serves. Now renamed to "Chip" by my 4 year old son. :) actually wasn't cream puff the '80 300CD? :) I think I called your old 190D Ludwig. ;) >-->I'm getting 30 around town and up to 33 on road trips....I've never >-->gotten better than 33 under any circumstance, even when trying to >-->keep the speed under 70 mph. Turns out 70 or 80 is roughly the same, >-->so I usually go 72-75 on road trips. If I get over 400 miles on one tank >-->I'm doing well, but I don't like to go really empty on the tank....suck in >-->all the nasties from the bottom... I'll dig up my old spreadsheet... or did I give you a copy? :) you may be going up and down steeper hills. ;) >-->I've only ridden in the 124 once, when John picked me up from the airport, >-->so I can't make many comparisons, other than I wished at the time that >-->I was taking Shadowfax home with me ;) That was cruel John! I know, I know, I'm bad. :) >-->Seriously though, the 190D 2.2L is massively underpowered. I took it >-->to Tahoe this last spring, and I was struggling to get up the hills. it's much worse on I-5/405 keeping up with traffic... not uncommon for this mass of cluelessness to go from 0 to 70 to 20 to 0 and back up to 40 all within a block. ;) >-->In everyday driving, I can drive fine, with some advance planning, but its >-->always a bit nerve wracking pulling out into traffic knowing your 72 hp is >-->not giving you much margin for error...I often flick off the AC for the >-->extra 3 hp boost....(like a mini-turbo button). maybe propane injection should be in your future. ;) >-->The 190D is amazing in parking lots...the turning radius is so tight, that >-->I can get into any spot in any lot and it's small enough that it fits >-->nicely into any garage. I've found the trunk to be sufficient, but mostly >-->I just use it as a commuter car. If we take long road trips, we usually >-->load up the suburban with all the baby parafanalia....and the kitchen sink, >-->if you want, there's always more room for whatever in the suburban (but, it >-->does cost twice as much as the 190D for fuel...I only get 16 mpg on the road). >-->I do make trips to the bay area, about 150 miles each way, on a regular >-->basis, and I can go down there, drive around all week, and make it back all >-->on one tank, which used to cost about $23-24 to fill up. It's probably closer >-->to $35-40 now :( might want to consider wvo... I was thinking about an inexpensive mod to my 300D... got an idea... I'll share it with the list, maybe set it up and produce it... might test it on my jimmy first. ;) john >--> >-->R, >-->Scott >--> >-->-----Original Message----- >-->From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net >-->[mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john >-->Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:55 PM >-->To: Bruce Caruthers >-->Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >-->Subject: Re: [db] searching for a W124 2.5(602) >--> >--> >-->On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Bruce Caruthers wrote: >--> >-->>-->Well, here's a question then. I know you used to >-->>-->have a 190D, John, so what are the real differences >-->>-->between a 190D 2.5 vs. a 300D 2.5? A little smaller >-->>-->(especially the fuel tank) but otherwise, how much >-->>-->of a real difference would I notice? >--> >-->ride quality, handling, room, minor quality differences... >--> >-->the ride is harsher, the handling... kind of a toss up, >--> in some ways I think the 124 handles better, but >--> the 201 is certainly more nimble, room... less of >--> it, but it's not bad... don't think that keyboard >--> will fit in the trunk. ;), quality... I have >--> this vague impression that the baby benz isn't >--> quite as nice as the bigger ones... hard to say, >--> maybe it's just my view about the 190s... My >--> 190 was a 2.2L, it did ok, very pretty car, I >--> liked it, but am very, very happy that I went >--> to the 124. If I had to get something else I'd >--> probably go back to another 123... >--> >-->so, bottom line... you have to drive one and see if you >-->like it... I have a hunch you'll prefer the 124. >--> >-->However, the 201 with the same engine would be a blast... >-->better performance and economy... >--> >-->I don't remember what my 201 got for mileage now, I'm >-->thinking mid 30's... Scott, what's it doing these days? >--> >-->seems to me it averaged somewhere between 32 and 35 or so, >-->never really had it out on the open road to see what it >-->would do... and open road around here is mountain so >-->highway mileage isn't exciting. :) >--> >-->Hey, if you find a 2.5L TD in a wrecked vehicle let me know... >-->I have a Jeep with a bad engine... ;) >--> >--> >-->>-->I'd still prefer a W124, but just want to make sure >-->>-->I'm not being overly picky... >-->>--> >-->>-->(granted, a non-turbo one here:) >-->>-->http://seattle.craigslist.org/car/94602402.html >--> >-->hey, it looks nice... >-->I like the custom crayon treatment on the rear shelf, nice... >--> >-->if you want to run it by this >-->weekend be happy to look it over... the 2.5 in that >-->car will be much better than a 2.2L. Not sure how >-->much... but this looks like a nice one... price >-->might be a bit high... check http://www.kbb.com >-->http://www.nada.com and http://www.edmunds.com they'll >-->be all over the place in pricing... look at retail, >-->trade in, private party and see what the spread is. :) >--> >--> >-->looking at these pictures I can see the quality differences >-->between the 201 and the 124... this car isn't bad though, >-->you should look at it... drive it... if you like it >-->run it by Jim's. >--> >-->thinking back while looking over these pictures I remember >-->one of the main reasons for "moving up"... I-5. >--> >-->The 2.2L was fine when you were cruising along... but on >-->I-5/405 stopping and starting was painful... it took a >-->while to get going... quite disturbing to me... >--> >-->Not sure if the 2.5L will have that same issue... >--> >-->drive it... :) >--> >-->If you like it we can figure out what it's really worth >-->with the help of the list... :) >--> >-->>-->As for Shadowfax, I thought the seats were bad for >-->>-->your wife's back? :) >--> >-->that's true... but 18mpg at best, 14mpg at worst in the >-->WJ is also bad for our back... the part where the wallet >-->is supposed to be. ;) >--> >-->>--> >-->>-->-bkc >-->>--> >-->>-->On Wed Aug 31, 2005, john wrote: >-->>-->> we'll keep our eyes out for you... :) >-->>-->> >-->>-->> send us links, pictures, etc... if it's local I'll >-->>-->> do the best I can to go and look at it with you. >-->>-->> >-->>-->> just so you know... my wife is lobbying for me to >-->>-->> part with Shadowfax once Superdawg is done... ;) we'll >-->>-->> see how that project turns out because if prices keep >-->>-->> going up for fuel I'll be lobbying her to get rid of >-->>-->> her WJ and drive the 300D. :) >-->>-->> >-->>-->> john >-->>--> >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >--> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:10:07 -0500 From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: RE: [db] searching for a W124 2.5(602) Quoting john : > On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 scott_haaland-at-agilent.com wrote: > > >-->Hi John, > >--> > >-->Re: Mileage of your old 190D 2.2L - normally aspirated: Formerly known > as > >-->"Cream Puff" if memory serves. Now renamed to "Chip" by my 4 year old > son. :) > > actually wasn't cream puff the '80 300CD? :) > > I think I called your old 190D Ludwig. ;) > Cream Puff was my 1980 W123 240D automatic with that creamy yellow/tan exterior color (not the brownish tan). She was a sweety. Alec Cordova Taylor, Texas 89 300CE, 192K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 12:53:54 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] searching for a W124 2.5(602) when you say "was", is this the 240d that got run over on the interstate or am I cornfusing you with another texan? :) john On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 acordova-at-texas.net wrote: >-->Quoting john : >--> >-->> On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 scott_haaland-at-agilent.com wrote: >-->> >-->> >-->Hi John, >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Re: Mileage of your old 190D 2.2L - normally aspirated: Formerly known >-->> as >-->> >-->"Cream Puff" if memory serves. Now renamed to "Chip" by my 4 year old >-->> son. :) >-->> >-->> actually wasn't cream puff the '80 300CD? :) >-->> >-->> I think I called your old 190D Ludwig. ;) >-->> >--> >-->Cream Puff was my 1980 W123 240D automatic with that creamy yellow/tan >-->exterior color (not the brownish tan). She was a sweety. >--> >-->Alec Cordova >-->Taylor, Texas >-->89 300CE, 192K >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:10:34 -0500 From: acordova-at-texas.net Subject: RE: [db] searching for a W124 2.5(602) Not me. We sold Cream Puff many years ago, still in fine shape. I think we bought a Jeep Wrangler Sahara to replace her. It was maybe the 2nd or 3rd year of the Sahara package, if that tells you which generation of Wrangler. Alec Quoting john : > > when you say "was", is this the 240d that got run > over on the interstate or am I cornfusing you with another texan? > > :) > john > > On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 acordova-at-texas.net wrote: > > >-->Quoting john : > >--> > >-->> On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 scott_haaland-at-agilent.com wrote: > >-->> > >-->> >-->Hi John, > >-->> >--> > >-->> >-->Re: Mileage of your old 190D 2.2L - normally aspirated: Formerly > known > >-->> as > >-->> >-->"Cream Puff" if memory serves. Now renamed to "Chip" by my 4 > year old > >-->> son. :) > >-->> > >-->> actually wasn't cream puff the '80 300CD? :) > >-->> > >-->> I think I called your old 190D Ludwig. ;) > >-->> > >--> > >-->Cream Puff was my 1980 W123 240D automatic with that creamy yellow/tan > >-->exterior color (not the brownish tan). She was a sweety. > >--> > >-->Alec Cordova > >-->Taylor, Texas > >-->89 300CE, 192K > >--> > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:33:29 -0400 From: "Jim Hoffman" Subject: [db] Jet - A fuel? Anybody know anything about this Jet-A fuel? Apparently waste fuel that gets thrown away and can run in our diesel machines?!?! Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:05:11 -0400 From: Marc Subject: Re: [db] Jet - A fuel? Jim, Jet A is the designation for the fuel that commercial and private jets use. I haven't heard that it is a waste fuel. It smells like kerosene and is probably close to kerosene in formulation. Marc Z. Jim Hoffman wrote: >Anybody know anything about this Jet-A fuel? Apparently waste fuel >that gets thrown away and can run in our diesel machines?!?! > >Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:13:35 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Jet - A fuel? it is like kerosene and will run through our diesels just fine... not sure if it'll have enough lubricity to run solo though... john On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Marc wrote: > -->Jim, Jet A is the designation for the fuel that commercial and private jets > -->use. I haven't heard that it is a waste fuel. > --> > -->It smells like kerosene and is probably close to kerosene in formulation. > --> > -->Marc Z. > --> > -->Jim Hoffman wrote: > --> > -->> Anybody know anything about this Jet-A fuel? Apparently waste fuel > -->> that gets thrown away and can run in our diesel machines?!?! > -->> > -->> Jim > --> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 02:31:53 -0700 From: "Richard Barnaby" Subject: RE: [db] Jet - A fuel? Jim, read this, for a pretty good idea. http://www.columbia.edu/~nso2001/ieor4007/oiltrading.pdf To summarize, "Will it burn?" - yes. "Is it safe?" That depends on the operating temp of the fuel. In general, Kero and Jet has a different viscosity curve than diesel. It also has different flash point. That is why it is used in cold weather instead of diesel, or, rather is blended With diesel in cold climates. Although Lisa does not say, in her article, the viscosity also affects the cloud, and pour points Which are lower (in temperature) than diesel. In general, Kero/Jet is lighter (gravity wise) pours better, less viscous, and Is a bonifide traded hydrocarbon product, and should in no-wise be considered a Waste oil. While Lisa's article centers on price (Oil trading) ostensibly for a linear programming course at Columbia University it would seem, much useful information about the characteristics of different fuels can be gleaned from the article. One thing that might not be readily apparent is the use of API gravity instead of Specific Gravity. Although she gives the formula to convert one to the other, you should know that the REASON people use API gravity instead of Specific Gravity is that 1) Specific gravity of MOST hydrocarbon products is < 1.00 (ie lighter than water), but the SG of SOME hydrocarbons is > 1.00 (asphalts, etc for example), therefore, in the formula, the 141.5 and the 131.5 factor combine to create a "shift" of 10 (numerically) so that water instead of being referred to as a specific gravity of 1.00 will be referred to as a specific gravity of 10.00. In addition, the API gravity Inverts the specific gravity, so that HIGHER API gravity relates to a Lighter (ie lower specific gravity) product. The aim of the ANSI/API/IP formula was to shift the gravity formula so that you would never get a "negative" gravity, and so that Lighter fuels would be represented by HIGHER gravity. 2) While I have used "Specific Gravity" in my discussion, rather than 'Density", or "Relative Density", in common usage, specific gravity is more "understood", than "relative density". The 2 terms are virtually identical, in normal usage, however Lisa is correct in using "Density" which relates to the mass per unit volume (in a vacuum) rather that weight per unit of volume (measured in air at sea level at a particular temparature). Due to subtle differences in the "weight of air" due to the moisture content of standard air, and the differences in "standard air" around the planet (for example the British use 66% relative humidity, while the Americans use 50% relative humidity), you could have differences (in trading at the tanker-cargo-quantity level) if you used specific gravity instead of API gravity. The API tables almost ALL use relative density. This allows in addition to the benefits outlined above, the fungibility of product worldwide in trading. Jim, since I am not an engineer, and particularly since safety is involved using hydrocarbon fuel, in no wise would I want to recommend that you use Jet fuel in your diesel engine. That said, however, and since the discussion here is even to using french fry oil (non petro based oil), I think it fair to say that the diesel engine has a wide operating range of fuel, and provided that your engine can deal with the higher viscosity (leakiness of seals and parts comes to mind), and can deal with the lower flash point (100 def F instead of 137 deg F in general) you should be OK HEAT wise. Personally, I would not use Kero Jet in a operating enviroment where the FUEL could get to 90 degrees F., but that's me! Also, to confuse the matter, Europeans speak of "Gas Oil" rather than Diesel, In the chart, be sure to look at Lisa's table 4.70, as this had the non-linear characteristics, which is what we are interested in, rather than the "linear vis, and Linear flash" that she is using in her LP discussion. Hope this helps. - -b - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Marc Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 5:05 PM To: jslash-at-execpc.com Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: [db] Jet - A fuel? Jim, Jet A is the designation for the fuel that commercial and private jets use. I haven't heard that it is a waste fuel. It smells like kerosene and is probably close to kerosene in formulation. Marc Z. Jim Hoffman wrote: >Anybody know anything about this Jet-A fuel? Apparently waste fuel >that gets thrown away and can run in our diesel machines?!?! > >Jim - -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/87 - Release Date: 9/1/2005 - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/87 - Release Date: 9/1/2005 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:34:46 +0100 From: Stephen Rigley Subject: [db] 190D Ran out of fuel.... Hi folks, Just got a call from the Missus... she let the car run out of diesel... DOH! So, she went and bought a can into which she put 3 litres and put that in the car. D'ya think there is ANY hope of it starting with just 3 litres? She's been cranking it for a short while and now the battery light is on... So, she's prob going to leave it where it is (800 yards from our house) and grab a taxi. My Q is... I know the pump is self priming so, apart from changing out the inline filter, what else should I do to get it going? This car seems to eat batterys if you try to crank 'em for more than 2 mins... I'll prob be able to aquire some more diesel on my way out later actually too. Cheers Steve P.S. Just got the attached SMS'd to me ;-) LOL [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of 02-09-05_1424.jpg] ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1942 **********************************