From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Thu Sep 29 18:53:07 2005 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Friday, September 30 2005 Volume 01 : Number 1971 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: [db] 30.7 mpg? RE: [db] 30.7 mpg? Re: [db] Leaky 190D & "fleet" update RE: [db] 30.7 mpg? Re: [db] 30.7 mpg? Re: [db] 30.7 mpg? Re: [db] Leaky 190D & "fleet" update Re: [db] Leaky 190D & "fleet" update Re: [db] Leaky 190D & "fleet" update Re: [db] Leaky 190D & "fleet" update Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:41:56 -0600 From: Subject: RE: [db] 30.7 mpg? I've been wishing for this type of solution for the 190D for a while. It just seems waaaaay to wound up at 75 mph. If you go 80 mph, it sounds like it's going to blow up...it starts turning over 4000 RPM at 80 mph. If it could turn more like 2500 RPM at 72-75 mph, instead of 3000-3500 RPM, I would think I could get a few more mpg. Maybe go from 33 to 36 or more on the highway. However, with my 2.2L without the turbo, I fear the loss of acceleration in the lower gears if I went with either larger tires, or a different rear end. The 72 horsepower stuggles to get it moving as it is, especially from a dead stop with a slight incline. I'm just disappointed that the Mercedes engineers didn't put an overdrive on the tranny....this is the simplest solution. I doubt the 124 tranny would work very well in my little 190D :( Maybe I'll have to upgrade to a 124 one of these days....or figure out how to get a turbo motor in this 190D.... R, Scott - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:33 AM To: Black, Waylon Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net Subject: Re: [db] 30.7 mpg? do the math and see if you can change the gears in the trans/speedo: http://JohnMeister.com/FSJ/tech/gears.html each tire size is about 3%, so derate that mileage by 6%? One thought came to mind... I wonder if you could install the tranny out of a newer model with the overrdrive... my 124 is barely turning at 70mph... engine rpm at 100mph isn't as high as what my 126 did at 70. if we could retrofit the newer trans into the 123/126 that would be cool... john On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Black, Waylon wrote: >-->1980 300 SD, 247K miles - normally gets 25-27 mpg. >--> >-->I changed the tires from 185/70/14 to a considerably larger tire, >-->205/70/14. I expected the mileage to drop a bit but wanted to reduce >-->engine rpm on the highway(where I drive the most). >--> >-->Stopped yesterday, to fill up, as I had accumulated 248.6 miles. Tank >-->was about to spill over at 8.09 gallons. It takes me a little longer to >-->fill up as I let the foam dissolve. Fill up, to me, and clear liquid >-->about 1 inch from the top of the neck. I do this because it is 18.3 >-->miles from the station, to the house. I have been able to go 500 miles >-->between fill-ups. >--> >-->Same station, same fill-up procedure, level ground, no other changes. >-->I'm pretty amazed. >--> >-->I have noticed that the car is 'different'. Doesn't accelerate as hard, >-->but a smoother ride. I also noticed that I do not have to press the >-->pedal, as much as before, to maintain my cruise speed(about 70-75 mph). >-->I drive around 80-90 miles a day. >--> >-->I will be able to confirm the readings in 2-3 days. >--> >-->This just confirms my belief that our MBs are over-geared. Since they >-->were produced when the speed limit was 55, need to make any/all >-->adjustments to achieve a lower rpm. >--> >-->I have a 2.82 rear-end that I plan to replace the 3.07s with to see if >-->the mpg will increase or decrease. >--> >-->I wonder what the mpg really is as the larger tires make the speedo turn >-->even slower. >--> >-->Keep in mind that I am not a conservative driver nor was I trying to >-->increase mpg. After trying just about everything, I gave and accepted >-->that 25-27 was the best I could ever get, so I just drive it. >--> >-->Waylon Black >-->Little Elm, Texas >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:46:59 US/Eastern From: mfrank-at-westnet.com Subject: RE: [db] 30.7 mpg? You would have difficulty in fitting anything larger than 195 15 tires on a 201. Interference would vary a bit from tire to tire, but expect some rubbing in the front wheel well area. I once had 215 65's on, but gave it up after the front fender wore a neat groove in the sidewall. Mike Frank > I've been wishing for this type of solution for the 190D for a while. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:56:15 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Leaky 190D & "fleet" update On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Stephen Rigley wrote: >-->> >-->500 miles, one cancelled ferry (7 hours waiting round .. so we fixed >-->> >-->the reverse gear and gave it a good T-Cut + wax ;-) and it was home. A >-->> >-->few pictures up here : >-->> >-->www.mx5ireland.com/members/srigley/Dubster/ >-->> >-->> what's the old building? >-->> >-->Kings College in Cambridge ... ever heard of it? ;-) believe it or not I have a sun server on loan there... one of our technical account managers is over there... I was working with them when I was in amsterdam over the 4th of July. :) small world, eh? funny thing happened on the way to Tokyo... standing in line at customs I ran into one of my old users from another company I worked with in Everett, WA who was on his way to Singapore... what's the probability of THAT happening? :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:59:38 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: [db] 30.7 mpg? you know dropping a 2.5L TD and tranny out of a 124 into your 190d would not be that hard at all... that would be WAY COOL. engine swaps in cars are more work than in trucks... but the fact is that there can't be much difference in drivelines, many of the parts for the 201 will fit the 124... time does not permit a visit to the wrecking yard with a tape measure... john On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 scott_haaland-at-agilent.com wrote: >-->I've been wishing for this type of solution for the 190D for a while. It just seems waaaaay to wound up at 75 mph. If you go 80 mph, it sounds like it's going to blow up...it starts turning over 4000 RPM at 80 mph. If it could turn more like 2500 RPM at 72-75 mph, instead of 3000-3500 RPM, I would think I could get a few more mpg. Maybe go from 33 to 36 or more on the highway. >--> >-->However, with my 2.2L without the turbo, I fear the loss of acceleration in the lower gears if I went with either larger tires, or a different rear end. The 72 horsepower stuggles to get it moving as it is, especially from a dead stop with a slight incline. I'm just disappointed that the Mercedes engineers didn't put an overdrive on the tranny....this is the simplest solution. I doubt the 124 tranny would work very well in my little 190D :( Maybe I'll have to upgrade to a 124 one of these days....or figure out how to get a turbo motor in this 190D.... >--> >-->R, >-->Scott >--> >-->-----Original Message----- >-->From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john >-->Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:33 AM >-->To: Black, Waylon >-->Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net >-->Subject: Re: [db] 30.7 mpg? >--> >-->do the math and see if you can change the gears in the trans/speedo: >-->http://JohnMeister.com/FSJ/tech/gears.html >--> >-->each tire size is about 3%, so derate that mileage by 6%? >--> >-->One thought came to mind... I wonder if you could install the tranny >-->out of a newer model with the overrdrive... my 124 is barely turning >-->at 70mph... engine rpm at 100mph isn't as high as what my 126 did at 70. >--> >-->if we could retrofit the newer trans into the 123/126 that would be >-->cool... >--> >-->john >--> >--> >-->On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Black, Waylon wrote: >--> >-->>-->1980 300 SD, 247K miles - normally gets 25-27 mpg. >-->>--> >-->>-->I changed the tires from 185/70/14 to a considerably larger tire, >-->>-->205/70/14. I expected the mileage to drop a bit but wanted to reduce >-->>-->engine rpm on the highway(where I drive the most). >-->>--> >-->>-->Stopped yesterday, to fill up, as I had accumulated 248.6 miles. Tank >-->>-->was about to spill over at 8.09 gallons. It takes me a little longer to >-->>-->fill up as I let the foam dissolve. Fill up, to me, and clear liquid >-->>-->about 1 inch from the top of the neck. I do this because it is 18.3 >-->>-->miles from the station, to the house. I have been able to go 500 miles >-->>-->between fill-ups. >-->>--> >-->>-->Same station, same fill-up procedure, level ground, no other changes. >-->>-->I'm pretty amazed. >-->>--> >-->>-->I have noticed that the car is 'different'. Doesn't accelerate as hard, >-->>-->but a smoother ride. I also noticed that I do not have to press the >-->>-->pedal, as much as before, to maintain my cruise speed(about 70-75 mph). >-->>-->I drive around 80-90 miles a day. >-->>--> >-->>-->I will be able to confirm the readings in 2-3 days. >-->>--> >-->>-->This just confirms my belief that our MBs are over-geared. Since they >-->>-->were produced when the speed limit was 55, need to make any/all >-->>-->adjustments to achieve a lower rpm. >-->>--> >-->>-->I have a 2.82 rear-end that I plan to replace the 3.07s with to see if >-->>-->the mpg will increase or decrease. >-->>--> >-->>-->I wonder what the mpg really is as the larger tires make the speedo turn >-->>-->even slower. >-->>--> >-->>-->Keep in mind that I am not a conservative driver nor was I trying to >-->>-->increase mpg. After trying just about everything, I gave and accepted >-->>-->that 25-27 was the best I could ever get, so I just drive it. >-->>--> >-->>-->Waylon Black >-->>-->Little Elm, Texas >-->>--> >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >--> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:15:16 -0700 From: Kevin Subject: Re: [db] 30.7 mpg? On Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 09:32:44AM -0700, john wrote: > do the math and see if you can change the gears in the trans/speedo: > http://JohnMeister.com/FSJ/tech/gears.html > > each tire size is about 3%, so derate that mileage by 6%? > > One thought came to mind... I wonder if you could install the tranny > out of a newer model with the overrdrive... my 124 is barely turning > at 70mph... engine rpm at 100mph isn't as high as what my 126 did at 70. > > if we could retrofit the newer trans into the 123/126 that would be > cool... Wouldn't buy you anything. Your 722.4 has a 1:1 fourth gear. The difference is your rear end gear - 2.65:1. Your 126 (unless an SDL) would have had at least 3.08s (an 85 might have had a 2.9 something). What could potentially cause problems is leaving the line - when they dropped the ratio on the 85 300D, they had to change the torque converter, and even then, that car had something along the lines of a 2.87 rear end. your 722.4 in your 300D might even have the same ratios as your former 190D that scott has, in fact. His rear end ratio is somewhere in the low 3.something range. K ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:57:55 -0700 From: "Dan Jacobs" Subject: Re: [db] 30.7 mpg? > I changed the tires from 185/70/14 to a considerably larger tire, > 205/70/14. I expected the mileage to drop a bit but wanted to reduce > engine rpm on the highway(where I drive the most). > Waylon Black > Little Elm, Texas When you do this, you can't trust your odometer to be correct anymore. Sure, it's only a little off, and if you are good with math, you can figure out the difference. I am not too good at math. When I was a truck driver, and I changed tire sizes, I would use a GPS to keep track of speed and miles driven. The satellites could care less what I was driving or what the tire sizes were. Garmin E-Trex, some kind of holder, and power cord shouldn't cost more than $150-170 bucks if you shop around for best price: http://www.garmin.com/products/etrex/ http://shop.garmin.com/accessories_for_product.jsp?sku=010-00190-00 Well, that's how I do it. Diesel Dan, your "Of course I know _exactly_ how fast I was going. No, officer, I won't tell you" man in Washougal, WA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:40:04 -0400 From: Edward Pomeroy Subject: Re: [db] Leaky 190D & "fleet" update Stephen & listers: I am looking at a 1984 190D that a seller has listed for $2000 OBO. Kelly Blue Book says that with 93K miles it is not worth more than $500 so this may be my "OBO". Before I go through the motions, any specific cautions on the 4 pot normally aspirated diesel from Benz?? I read about the vacuum pump, have that on my list of things to check. I am aware they can be slugs, but the end use is for high mileage and slow speeds (and eventually for my soon to be teen, maybe :-) ). All commentary welcome. I am familiar with the body as one of my asociates had a 190E, just need to know of any weak points or things to check. Supposedly the vehicle only needs new rear shocks. All the rest operates. TIA Edward Stephen Rigley wrote: >>>-->500 miles, one cancelled ferry (7 hours waiting round .. so we fixed >>>-->the reverse gear and gave it a good T-Cut + wax ;-) and it was home. A >>>-->few pictures up here : >>>-->www.mx5ireland.com/members/srigley/Dubster/ >>> >>> >>what's the old building? >> >> >> > >Kings College in Cambridge ... ever heard of it? ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:50:17 -0400 From: Edward Pomeroy Subject: Re: [db] Leaky 190D & "fleet" update OOOH! you are making me nostalgic - had three VW's during my college days, none as pristine as that one, two bugs and one type III (the van where the first line of defense in a crash was my legs). Sort of miss them, but not R-E-A-L-L-Y..... I kind of like having heat and the ability to pass mopeds on the highway :-) Hope you are a young whippersnapper, that is who the bugs were really designed for. Edward Stephen Rigley wrote: >>>-->500 miles, one cancelled ferry (7 hours waiting round .. so we fixed >>>-->the reverse gear and gave it a good T-Cut + wax ;-) and it was home. A >>>-->few pictures up here : >>>-->www.mx5ireland.com/members/srigley/Dubster/ >>> >>> >>what's the old building? >> >> >> > >Kings College in Cambridge ... ever heard of it? ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:56:38 -0700 From: Kevin Subject: Re: [db] Leaky 190D & "fleet" update On Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 06:40:04PM -0400, Edward Pomeroy wrote: > I am looking at a 1984 190D that a seller has listed for $2000 OBO. > Kelly Blue Book says that with 93K miles it is not worth more than $500 > so this may be my "OBO". > > Before I go through the motions, any specific cautions on the 4 pot > normally aspirated diesel from Benz?? I read about the vacuum pump, have > that on my list of things to check. I am aware they can be slugs, but > the end use is for high mileage and slow speeds (and eventually for my > soon to be teen, maybe :-) ). > > All commentary welcome. I am familiar with the body as one of my > asociates had a 190E, just need to know of any weak points or things to > check. Supposedly the vehicle only needs new rear shocks. All the rest > operates. You will want Derick's checklist that he gave me when I went hunting for a 190D a couple of years ago. I probably have it buried somewhere... Kelley Blue Book is a bit off on these cars because not many of them sell, so there isn't a real accurate representation for KBB to work from. Off the cuff, $2000 sounds reasonable for a good running 190D that the automatic doesn't buck on you, the car doesn't smoke like a mosquito truck, all the windows work, A/C works, and there isn't any rust issues. The automatics get somewhere between 30-34 mpg depending on how hard your foot is into it. I think Derick gets 36 out of his, he'll have to tell you how light his foot is. I really enjoy 201s as daily drivers. Mine needs work, so I've been driving the 124 (300D), but really miss the 201. One of these days... K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:30:48 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Leaky 190D & "fleet" update On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Stephen Rigley wrote: >-->> >-->Last Sat morning I flew to Cambridge in the UK and drove home my >-->> >-->latest acquisition... a LHD 1995 1600cc Fuel injected (I kid you not!) >-->> >-->Mexican Beetle ! >-->> >-->> very, very cool. 140km!!! that's just a wee bit faster than a shift >-->> from 2nd to 3rd in my Mustangs on the Autobanh... ;) I had a '64 >-->> Karman Ghia with a 1200 over there that would do 95mph. :) >--> >-->What d'ya reckon it's at here? ;-) (all filmed on a private test track ;-) >-->http://www.mx5ireland.com/members/srigley/Dubster/2005Sep24_180.MPG What is 134.7 mph in kph? On the autobahn between Karlsrue and Heidelberg I was in my '67 Mustang and was having fun with someone in a Corvette, all quite legally I'll have you know. :) Coming home from Switzerland I'd come out of construction zones where they'd drop the speeds down to 100K (62mph), I'd grab 2nd gear and run up to about 75mph, catch 3rd and head up to about 115mph to cruise... one time the lights in the mirror didn't get smaller like they usually did... so I slowed down to about 95 or so to see what it was... and saw the vette... yee haw. Too bad the autobahn in that section was so rough. The vette was all over the place at 130+, my stang was floating across the bumps and I figured this wasn't a really good thing. I came through that same stretch six months later in my '71 BMW 2500 and realized how bad that stretch was. But hey, it was fun! I miss the autobahn, would love to get shadowfax over there and see what he feels like at the top speed of 124 mph. :) Probably a whole lot better than that old Mustang. :) BTW, Stephen, that Beetle is very cool! Too bad it doesn't have a sunroof. ;) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1971 **********************************