From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Fri Oct 21 09:38:23 2005 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Friday, October 21 2005 Volume 01 : Number 1996 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] Second article Re: [db] Second article Re: [db] Second article Re: [db] Second article Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:29:29 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Second article the multiple injection technique is something I guess they're doing on the newer cummins engines... makes them a lot quieter... my neighbor has a friend with a new dodge and it's hard to tell if it's her WJ starting up or the cummins until he stands on the go pedal to get out of my drive... my other neighbor has that earlier vintage cummins and it'll pound nails with the sound. ;) the world of trucks has reopened to me without the limitations of a 60 mile commute and a parking garage to contend with... going to look at the smallest, lightest, most compact Diesel offerings when I have some free time... oh, in about six months to a year maybe... ;) john On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 acordova-at-texas.net wrote: >-->My understanding is that while we may have reduced diesel sulfur content, we >-->didn't do it as dramatically as the Europeans. >--> >-->And of course isn't diesel smoking simply a result of stuffing too much fuel >-->into the cylinders? Reasonably well designed injection pumps should minimize >-->smoking. Or injection pumps that aren't squirting in enough fuel to take full >-->advantage of the amount of air, like an OM617 whose ALDA isn't cranked. >--> >-->Newer computer controlled systems that even provide multiple small injections >-->per single combustion cycle control smoking even better, as well as >-->controlling noise and emissions better than older styles. >--> >-->Alec >--> >-->Quoting john : >--> >-->> we went to a low(er) sulfur content fuel back in the >-->> early '90s... smoking Diesels are kind of rare now... is >-->> the Diesel here still laden with sulfur??? >-->> >-->> My Jimmy is an older 6.2L Diesel and it doesn't smoke, and it's >-->> tired... >-->> >-->> Ignorance about things mechanical is the problem. Most people >-->> are quite technically illiterate and amazingly proud of their >-->> ignorance. They seem happier depending upon a public transit >-->> system then their own vehicle. We saw how well that worked in >-->> a disaster. >-->> >-->> john >-->> >-->> >-->> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Edward Pomeroy wrote: >-->> >-->> >-->Diesel Deliverance? >-->> >-->By Eric Peters >-->> >-->10/16/05 >-->> >--> >-->> >-->So, how come we're deprived of these great engines? Is it a conspiracy? >-->> >-->> >-->The evil machinations of the Illuminati? >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Nope. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->The reason is as close as your local filling station. The diesel that's >-->> >-->> >-->available in this country is fine for big rigs but terrible for modern >-->> >-->> >-->high-efficiency passenger car diesels. The stuff we have is laden with >-->> >-->> >-->sulfur, and putting high-sulfur diesel into a modern >-->> >-->high-performance/high-efficiency turbo-direct-injection diesel >-->> passenger >-->> >-->car engine is like pouring Karo syrup into the tank of your Pinto. The >-->> >-->> >-->results, in both cases, are not pretty. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->European diesels are precision machines that need high-grade, >-->> low-sulfur >-->> >-->content fuel. Fed properly, they deliver all the good things--high >-->> >-->specific output and great mileage--with none of the bad stuff--clouds >-->> of >-->> >-->smoke, high-emissions output and warranty or repair problems. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->But thanks to short-sightedness on our part, we did nothing over the >-->> >-->past 10-20 years to get low-sulfur diesel into the pipeline; the sooty, >-->> >-->> >-->high-sulfur swill we had was a-OK for the big rigs, and that, >-->> >-->apparently, was good enough for us. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->(Hey, gasoline was only $1.40 per gallon. Why bother with diesel, >-->> right? >-->> >-->Right.) >-->> >--> >-->> >-->This is why we don't get the 530d, LR3 diesel or any of the other >-->> >-->state-of-the-art diesel-powered vehicles currently available in Europe. >-->> >-->> >-->The manufacturers are not about to sell vehicles that won't run >-->> properly >-->> >-->on the available fuel. Indeed, there are so many potential problems in >-->> >-->> >-->terms of emissions issues alone they'd be crazy to even try. Next to >-->> the >-->> >-->IRS, the EPA is the last government agency you want drawing a target on >-->> >-->> >-->your back. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->So, until we can get decent quality diesel fuel, supposedly sometime in >-->> >-->> >-->2007, we'll just have to wait. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->And pay. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Comment on this article >-->> >-->>-->-->oUserId=533355982&webtag=ws-automobile&replyToTid=187587> >-->> >-->> >-->in the Automobile Forum . >-->> >--> >-->> >-->COPYRIGHT 2005 ERIC PETERS >-->> >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:31:18 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Second article I think you are b100% correct! :) the restaurant here in Seattle is totally gonzo over the fact that we (chuck and I) are burning their old oil in our rigs... last night the manager wanted me to bring my big Jimmy back so he could show a "biodiesel" truck to his cook. :) I tried to point out the difference but just caved and let him have his happiness. ;) john On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Charles Redell wrote: >-->I'll just pipe in here and say what you all know I'm going to say: >-->RUnning on B100 means no sulfur and no loss of power. >-->IF biod (not WVO mind you) were supported by more people, given more tax >-->breaks to help its spread and talked up in the press, maybe we could get >-->these fancy-shmancy new diesels ('course, I'll keep driving my 300d, but >-->that's cause I love it...) >-->c >--> >-->On 10/21/05, john wrote: >-->> >-->> we went to a low(er) sulfur content fuel back in the >-->> early '90s... smoking Diesels are kind of rare now... is >-->> the Diesel here still laden with sulfur??? >-->> >-->> My Jimmy is an older 6.2L Diesel and it doesn't smoke, and it's >-->> tired... >-->> >-->> Ignorance about things mechanical is the problem. Most people >-->> are quite technically illiterate and amazingly proud of their >-->> ignorance. They seem happier depending upon a public transit >-->> system then their own vehicle. We saw how well that worked in >-->> a disaster. >-->> >-->> john >-->> >-->> >-->> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Edward Pomeroy wrote: >-->> >-->> >-->Diesel Deliverance? >-->> >-->By Eric Peters >-->> >-->10/16/05 >-->> >--> >-->> >-->So, how come we're deprived of these great engines? Is it a >-->> conspiracy? >-->> >-->The evil machinations of the Illuminati? >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Nope. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->The reason is as close as your local filling station. The diesel >-->> that's >-->> >-->available in this country is fine for big rigs but terrible for modern >-->> >-->high-efficiency passenger car diesels. The stuff we have is laden with >-->> >-->sulfur, and putting high-sulfur diesel into a modern >-->> >-->high-performance/high-efficiency turbo-direct-injection diesel >-->> passenger >-->> >-->car engine is like pouring Karo syrup into the tank of your Pinto. The >-->> >-->results, in both cases, are not pretty. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->European diesels are precision machines that need high-grade, >-->> low-sulfur >-->> >-->content fuel. Fed properly, they deliver all the good things--high >-->> >-->specific output and great mileage--with none of the bad stuff--clouds >-->> of >-->> >-->smoke, high-emissions output and warranty or repair problems. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->But thanks to short-sightedness on our part, we did nothing over the >-->> >-->past 10-20 years to get low-sulfur diesel into the pipeline; the >-->> sooty, >-->> >-->high-sulfur swill we had was a-OK for the big rigs, and that, >-->> >-->apparently, was good enough for us. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->(Hey, gasoline was only $1.40 per gallon. Why bother with diesel, >-->> right? >-->> >-->Right.) >-->> >--> >-->> >-->This is why we don't get the 530d, LR3 diesel or any of the other >-->> >-->state-of-the-art diesel-powered vehicles currently available in >-->> Europe. >-->> >-->The manufacturers are not about to sell vehicles that won't run >-->> properly >-->> >-->on the available fuel. Indeed, there are so many potential problems in >-->> >-->terms of emissions issues alone they'd be crazy to even try. Next to >-->> the >-->> >-->IRS, the EPA is the last government agency you want drawing a target >-->> on >-->> >-->your back. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->So, until we can get decent quality diesel fuel, supposedly sometime >-->> in >-->> >-->2007, we'll just have to wait. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->And pay. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Comment on this article >-->> >-->< >-->> >-->http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?replyToTsn=1&nav=post&toUser >-->Id=533355982&webtag=ws-automobile&replyToTid=187587 >-->> > >-->> >-->in the Automobile Forum . >-->> >--> >-->> >-->COPYRIGHT 2005 ERIC PETERS >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> ---- >-->> >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >-->> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> >--> >--> >--> >-->-- >-->Proud owner of an 84 300d turbo running B100 >-->(if you don't know what this means, just ask!) >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:25:37 +0100 From: Stephen Rigley Subject: Re: [db] Second article Do Honda not sell the Accord with the brilliant i-CTDi engine over there no? I'm really suprised by this article... ya don't know what you are missing ;-) Steve On 10/21/05, john wrote: > the multiple injection technique is something I guess they're doing > on the newer cummins engines... makes them a lot quieter... my neighbor > has a friend with a new dodge and it's hard to tell if it's her WJ starting > up or the cummins until he stands on the go pedal to get out of my drive... > my other neighbor has that earlier vintage cummins and it'll pound nails > with the sound. ;) > > the world of trucks has reopened to me without the limitations of a 60 mile > commute and a parking garage to contend with... going to look at the smallest, > lightest, most compact Diesel offerings when I have some free time... oh, in about > six months to a year maybe... ;) > > john > > On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 acordova-at-texas.net wrote: > > >-->My understanding is that while we may have reduced diesel sulfur content, we > >-->didn't do it as dramatically as the Europeans. > >--> > >-->And of course isn't diesel smoking simply a result of stuffing too much fuel > >-->into the cylinders? Reasonably well designed injection pumps should minimize > >-->smoking. Or injection pumps that aren't squirting in enough fuel to take full > >-->advantage of the amount of air, like an OM617 whose ALDA isn't cranked. > >--> > >-->Newer computer controlled systems that even provide multiple small injections > >-->per single combustion cycle control smoking even better, as well as > >-->controlling noise and emissions better than older styles. > >--> > >-->Alec > >--> > >-->Quoting john : > >--> > >-->> we went to a low(er) sulfur content fuel back in the > >-->> early '90s... smoking Diesels are kind of rare now... is > >-->> the Diesel here still laden with sulfur??? > >-->> > >-->> My Jimmy is an older 6.2L Diesel and it doesn't smoke, and it's > >-->> tired... > >-->> > >-->> Ignorance about things mechanical is the problem. Most people > >-->> are quite technically illiterate and amazingly proud of their > >-->> ignorance. They seem happier depending upon a public transit > >-->> system then their own vehicle. We saw how well that worked in > >-->> a disaster. > >-->> > >-->> john > >-->> > >-->> > >-->> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Edward Pomeroy wrote: > >-->> > >-->> >-->Diesel Deliverance? > >-->> >-->By Eric Peters > >-->> >-->10/16/05 > >-->> >--> > >-->> >-->So, how come we're deprived of these great engines? Is it a conspiracy? > >-->> > >-->> >-->The evil machinations of the Illuminati? > >-->> >--> > >-->> >-->Nope. > >-->> >--> > >-->> >-->The reason is as close as your local filling station. The diesel that's > >-->> > >-->> >-->available in this country is fine for big rigs but terrible for modern > >-->> > >-->> >-->high-efficiency passenger car diesels. The stuff we have is laden with > >-->> > >-->> >-->sulfur, and putting high-sulfur diesel into a modern > >-->> >-->high-performance/high-efficiency turbo-direct-injection diesel > >-->> passenger > >-->> >-->car engine is like pouring Karo syrup into the tank of your Pinto. The > >-->> > >-->> >-->results, in both cases, are not pretty. > >-->> >--> > >-->> >-->European diesels are precision machines that need high-grade, > >-->> low-sulfur > >-->> >-->content fuel. Fed properly, they deliver all the good things--high > >-->> >-->specific output and great mileage--with none of the bad stuff--clouds > >-->> of > >-->> >-->smoke, high-emissions output and warranty or repair problems. > >-->> >--> > >-->> >-->But thanks to short-sightedness on our part, we did nothing over the > >-->> >-->past 10-20 years to get low-sulfur diesel into the pipeline; the sooty, > >-->> > >-->> >-->high-sulfur swill we had was a-OK for the big rigs, and that, > >-->> >-->apparently, was good enough for us. > >-->> >--> > >-->> >-->(Hey, gasoline was only $1.40 per gallon. Why bother with diesel, > >-->> right? > >-->> >-->Right.) > >-->> >--> > >-->> >-->This is why we don't get the 530d, LR3 diesel or any of the other > >-->> >-->state-of-the-art diesel-powered vehicles currently available in Europe. > >-->> > >-->> >-->The manufacturers are not about to sell vehicles that won't run > >-->> properly > >-->> >-->on the available fuel. Indeed, there are so many potential problems in > >-->> > >-->> >-->terms of emissions issues alone they'd be crazy to even try. Next to > >-->> the > >-->> >-->IRS, the EPA is the last government agency you want drawing a target on > >-->> > >-->> >-->your back. > >-->> >--> > >-->> >-->So, until we can get decent quality diesel fuel, supposedly sometime in > >-->> > >-->> >-->2007, we'll just have to wait. > >-->> >--> > >-->> >-->And pay. > >-->> >--> > >-->> >-->Comment on this article > >-->> > >-->>--> >-->oUserId=533355982&webtag=ws-automobile&replyToTid=187587> > >-->> > >-->> >-->in the Automobile Forum . > >-->> >--> > >-->> >-->COPYRIGHT 2005 ERIC PETERS > >-->> >--> > >--> > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:38:00 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Second article it's funny that I didn't see any Diesel passenger cars at all in Tokyo... but no, no Diesels in Hondas that I've heard or seen here in the states. :( just these goofy hybrids... looking at the specs for the ford hyrbid, gets better economy in town than on the highway... (the freedom or mini-explorer thing) john On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Stephen Rigley wrote: >-->Do Honda not sell the Accord with the brilliant i-CTDi engine over >-->there no? I'm really suprised by this article... ya don't know what >-->you are missing ;-) >-->Steve >--> >-->On 10/21/05, john wrote: >-->> the multiple injection technique is something I guess they're doing >-->> on the newer cummins engines... makes them a lot quieter... my neighbor >-->> has a friend with a new dodge and it's hard to tell if it's her WJ starting >-->> up or the cummins until he stands on the go pedal to get out of my drive... >-->> my other neighbor has that earlier vintage cummins and it'll pound nails >-->> with the sound. ;) >-->> >-->> the world of trucks has reopened to me without the limitations of a 60 mile >-->> commute and a parking garage to contend with... going to look at the smallest, >-->> lightest, most compact Diesel offerings when I have some free time... oh, in about >-->> six months to a year maybe... ;) >-->> >-->> john >-->> >-->> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 acordova-at-texas.net wrote: >-->> >-->> >-->My understanding is that while we may have reduced diesel sulfur content, we >-->> >-->didn't do it as dramatically as the Europeans. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->And of course isn't diesel smoking simply a result of stuffing too much fuel >-->> >-->into the cylinders? Reasonably well designed injection pumps should minimize >-->> >-->smoking. Or injection pumps that aren't squirting in enough fuel to take full >-->> >-->advantage of the amount of air, like an OM617 whose ALDA isn't cranked. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Newer computer controlled systems that even provide multiple small injections >-->> >-->per single combustion cycle control smoking even better, as well as >-->> >-->controlling noise and emissions better than older styles. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Alec >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Quoting john : >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> we went to a low(er) sulfur content fuel back in the >-->> >-->> early '90s... smoking Diesels are kind of rare now... is >-->> >-->> the Diesel here still laden with sulfur??? >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> My Jimmy is an older 6.2L Diesel and it doesn't smoke, and it's >-->> >-->> tired... >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> Ignorance about things mechanical is the problem. Most people >-->> >-->> are quite technically illiterate and amazingly proud of their >-->> >-->> ignorance. They seem happier depending upon a public transit >-->> >-->> system then their own vehicle. We saw how well that worked in >-->> >-->> a disaster. >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> john >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Edward Pomeroy wrote: >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->Diesel Deliverance? >-->> >-->> >-->By Eric Peters >-->> >-->> >-->10/16/05 >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> >-->So, how come we're deprived of these great engines? Is it a conspiracy? >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->The evil machinations of the Illuminati? >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> >-->Nope. >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> >-->The reason is as close as your local filling station. The diesel that's >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->available in this country is fine for big rigs but terrible for modern >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->high-efficiency passenger car diesels. The stuff we have is laden with >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->sulfur, and putting high-sulfur diesel into a modern >-->> >-->> >-->high-performance/high-efficiency turbo-direct-injection diesel >-->> >-->> passenger >-->> >-->> >-->car engine is like pouring Karo syrup into the tank of your Pinto. The >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->results, in both cases, are not pretty. >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> >-->European diesels are precision machines that need high-grade, >-->> >-->> low-sulfur >-->> >-->> >-->content fuel. Fed properly, they deliver all the good things--high >-->> >-->> >-->specific output and great mileage--with none of the bad stuff--clouds >-->> >-->> of >-->> >-->> >-->smoke, high-emissions output and warranty or repair problems. >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> >-->But thanks to short-sightedness on our part, we did nothing over the >-->> >-->> >-->past 10-20 years to get low-sulfur diesel into the pipeline; the sooty, >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->high-sulfur swill we had was a-OK for the big rigs, and that, >-->> >-->> >-->apparently, was good enough for us. >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> >-->(Hey, gasoline was only $1.40 per gallon. Why bother with diesel, >-->> >-->> right? >-->> >-->> >-->Right.) >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> >-->This is why we don't get the 530d, LR3 diesel or any of the other >-->> >-->> >-->state-of-the-art diesel-powered vehicles currently available in Europe. >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->The manufacturers are not about to sell vehicles that won't run >-->> >-->> properly >-->> >-->> >-->on the available fuel. Indeed, there are so many potential problems in >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->terms of emissions issues alone they'd be crazy to even try. Next to >-->> >-->> the >-->> >-->> >-->IRS, the EPA is the last government agency you want drawing a target on >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->your back. >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> >-->So, until we can get decent quality diesel fuel, supposedly sometime in >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->2007, we'll just have to wait. >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> >-->And pay. >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> >-->Comment on this article >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->>-->-->> >-->oUserId=533355982&webtag=ws-automobile&replyToTid=187587> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->in the Automobile Forum . >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> >-->COPYRIGHT 2005 ERIC PETERS >-->> >-->> >--> >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> ---- >-->> >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >-->> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #1996 **********************************