From owner-diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Sat Oct 22 10:32:08 2005 From: diesel-benz-digest diesel-benz-digest Saturday, October 22 2005 Volume 01 : Number 2001 Forum for Discussion of Diesel Mercedes Benz Automobiles Derick Amburgey Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [db] canola oil Re: [db] canola oil [db] the things you run across researching biodiesel... Re: [db] canola oil Re: [db] canola oil Re: [db] canola oil Re: [db] canola oil Re: [db] canola oil Re: [db] canola oil Re: [db] canola oil [db] WVO vs. true biodiesel Re: [db] canola oil Diesel Benz Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/diesel-benz/ Send submissions to diesel-benz-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to diesel-benz-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to stag-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 06:52:04 +0000 From: Bruce Caruthers Subject: Re: [db] canola oil Just FYI... Take any information on the journeytoforever.org website with a large pile of salt. I haven't personally tested their info (although just reading through their "Foolproof Method" raised my biochemist wife's eyebrows several times) but I have heard from many reputable sources that their information is quite "off". On Fri Oct 21, 2005, john wrote: > > interesting (canola oil is rapeseed from what I can tell) > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#rapeseed > > john ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:09:46 +0000 From: Bruce Caruthers Subject: Re: [db] canola oil Here's the take on it from my wife the biochemist... - ---8<------8<--- You can send this to John and/or the list... Canola oil used as a WVO supplement to fuel, using my chemical common sense, should be pretty good. Canola oil is one of the "healthy" eatin oils because it's liquid at room temp, and it's also unlikely to form those nasty little deposits in your body... this is due to unsaturation (multiple double bonds, in chemspeak). For the same reason, this oil will tend to stay liquid in the gas tank to lower temps. The jury is still out, based on my research, if canola makes a better biodiesel than other oils -- but it's definitely in the running. Palm oils are apparently more energy efficient, but difficult to work with being solid at room temp. Soy oil apparently works well, but not many restaurants use it for cooking -- meaning you'd have to grow biodiesel-specific soy crops, defeating the recycling purpose, IMO. Your oil should work great (still working on finding the last pieces of testing equipment...) - ---8<------8<--- - -bkc Lynnwood, WA '76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] '00 MB ML320 [W163.154/M112.942] '93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] '92 Toyota Celica GT On Fri Oct 21, 2005, john wrote: > when returning the empty buckets to the blue moon burger joint that > chuck and I have been getting our go juice from I noticed an empty container... > actually it's a plastic container in about box, estimate about 2.5 gallons... will > get more of these little jewels (especially if I can get chuck to haul 'em. ;) > > Anyway, interesting to note that they are using canola oil in their fryer.... > > > ok all you alchemists, biochemists, charlatans and witch doctors of the go juice, > is this good, bad or just plain ugly? :) > > heading for the hills, actually, over the hills... last transmission for the night, may > not get back on line until late tomorrow... getting on US2 and heading over to > the little bavarian village known as leavenworth... schnitzel, bratwurst and other > fine european cusine (of the germanic variety) await us... ;) > > supposed to be sunny... anyone know what the freezing level is? of course stevens > pass is only about 4,000 feet so it's not too much of a worry this early in the year. ;) > john ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:33:56 +0000 From: Bruce Caruthers Subject: [db] the things you run across researching biodiesel... During Brooke's and my delving into biodiesel brewing stuff... - -bkc - -- http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?t=104 - -- This rat story doesn't have any biodiesel content, but it's still amusing. Years ago I had a friend named Kayla that lived in a nearby trailer-park. (Now they call them 'mobile home communities'). She calls me at 3 a.m. absolutely frantic, screaming and insisting that I must come to her place immediately. I freak out and drive there as fast as can, fully expecting to have to do a manly man encounter with a big frothy burgler/rapist. Kayla greets me at the door, still screaming. When she calms down, she tells me that she had been unable to sleep and decided to do the dishes (in the dark). She was using what she thought was a dish rag. When she turned on the light she discovered that it was not a rag, but a dead rat that had drowned in the dish water. The more I thought about this, the more I thought a rat could actually be a handy dishwashing tool. The furry surface of the rat is good for general dishwashing, the teeth can be used for those hard to remove stuck on foods that need to be scraped, and the tail can go into the small crevaces. And then to rinse, you hold the rat underwater, squeeze to suck in water, and then squeeze again to rinse the plate. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 07:19:53 -0500 From: "Allen Zylstra" Subject: Re: [db] canola oil Those jugs are called cubies. I think there are closer to 4 gallons. The go by weight 35lbs. I got 4 from a local cafe. I am going to try to get them to put the WVO in these so that I can just pick them up instead of pumping. Also be good for extra capacity on long road trips. Allen -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: john To: john CC: full size jeep list , xj-list , Jeepbuilder-at-comcast.net, ABCvoice-at-worldnet.att.net, diesel-benz list Subject: Re: [db] canola oil Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:20:08 -0700 (PDT) >interesting (canola oil is rapeseed from what I can tell) >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#rapeseed > >john > >On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, john wrote: > > >-->when returning the empty buckets to the blue moon burger joint that > >-->chuck and I have been getting our go juice from I noticed an empty container... > >-->actually it's a plastic container in about box, estimate about 2.5 gallons... will > >-->get more of these little jewels (especially if I can get chuck to haul 'em. ;) > >--> > >-->Anyway, interesting to note that they are using canola oil in their fryer.... > >--> > >--> > >-->ok all you alchemists, biochemists, charlatans and witch doctors of the go juice, > >-->is this good, bad or just plain ugly? :) > >--> > >-->heading for the hills, actually, over the hills... last transmission for the night, may > >-->not get back on line until late tomorrow... getting on US2 and heading over to > >-->the little bavarian village known as leavenworth... schnitzel, bratwurst and other > >-->fine european cusine (of the germanic variety) await us... ;) > >--> > >-->supposed to be sunny... anyone know what the freezing level is? of course stevens > >-->pass is only about 4,000 feet so it's not too much of a worry this early in the year. ;) > >-->john > >--> > >--> ---- > >--> > >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >--> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > >--> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** > >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >--> > > ---- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:02:28 -0400 From: Michael Frank Subject: Re: [db] canola oil Healthy unsaturated oils may digest well in your body, but form more deposits in your engine. Here's an article from a reliable source: http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/transport/comparison/pubs/2ch5.pdf Most vegetable oils and some animal oils have 'drying' or 'semi-drying' properties and it is this which makes many oils such as linseed, tung and fish suitable as the base of paints and other coatings. But it is also this property that further restricts their use as fuels. Drying results from the double bonds in the oil molecules which can be easily broken by atmospheric oxygen converting the fatty acid into a peroxide. Cross-linking at this site can then occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid (Cole et al., 1977). Should work ok when as an additive to real Diesel, tho. Mike Frank At 03:09 AM 10/22/2005, Bruce Caruthers wrote: >Canola oil used as a WVO supplement to fuel, using my >chemical common sense, should be pretty good. Canola oil is >one of the "healthy" eatin oils because it's liquid at room >temp, and it's also unlikely to form those nasty little >deposits in your body... this is due to unsaturation >(multiple double bonds, in chemspeak). For the same reason, >this oil will tend to stay liquid in the gas tank to lower >temps. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:49:35 -0400 From: "Jim Hoffman" Subject: Re: [db] canola oil A biodiesel book came highly recommended from another list: Biodiesel: Growing a New Energy Economy http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2691671 It talks about Oil-Producing Crops... Palm Oil produces the most oil per acre but as mentioned earlier is difficult to work with and hard to grow in our climates. Rapeseed/ Canola is the best source of biodiesel for our climate. You can get 127 gallons/acre of Canola oil "the highest yield of any conventional oilseed field crop." It's a great read so far. And for less than $10 I'm enjoying it. Jim - -- Jim Hoffman Oconomowoc WI '39 Allis Model B '53 Ford Golden Jubilee '?? Bolens Huskie Gardener ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:01:17 -0700 From: chuck goolsbee Subject: Re: [db] canola oil >Anyway, interesting to note that they are using canola oil in their fryer.... I believe Canola oil is what we western hemisphere types call rapeseed oil. Rape is grown in a lot of mid and northern latitudes as a feed crop and for oil from the seeds. It makes for bright yellow fields. When I lived in the UK it was being grown all around us as part of the normal crop rotation ... those bright yellow sections of the western european countryside patchwork are rape: Those photos were taken from an old DeHavilland Tiger Moth that my landlord owned. He took me for a fly one day. The big yellow patches on the ground are fields of rape. IIRC "Canola" is a trademark of some Canadian growers asociation. Off to Google... It appears it is a specifically bred version of rapeseed. They list "BioDiesel" as one of the industrial uses of Canola. Perhaps our chemically knowledgeable listers can fill us in on what all the rest means. >heading for the hills, actually, over the hills... last transmission >for the night, may >not get back on line until late tomorrow... getting on US2 and heading over to >the little bavarian village known as leavenworth... schnitzel, >bratwurst and other >fine european cusine (of the germanic variety) await us... ;) I realize it isn't particularly "Bavarian" but the "ortega burger" (with jack cheese and a big fat roasted Ancho chile) at Gustav's is pretty damn awesome. Provided Gustav's is still there. I haven't been to Leavenworth since my climbing days in my 20's. >supposed to be sunny... anyone know what the freezing level is? of >course stevens >pass is only about 4,000 feet so it's not too much of a worry this >early in the year. ;) http://wsdot.wa.gov/traffic/passes/stevens/ - -- - --chuck goolsbee 02 Jetta TDi (but also looking for a 300SD or SDL) arlington, wa, usa ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:11:02 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] canola oil fair enough... hard to argue with a known expert in the area. much of what is on the web should be tested. I tell my students to verify with at least two other sources at a minimum. So, that said, is canola oil any good? john On Sat, 22 Oct 2005, Bruce Caruthers wrote: >-->Just FYI... >--> >-->Take any information on the journeytoforever.org >-->website with a large pile of salt. I haven't >-->personally tested their info (although just reading >-->through their "Foolproof Method" raised my >-->biochemist wife's eyebrows several times) but I >-->have heard from many reputable sources that their >-->information is quite "off". >--> >--> >-->On Fri Oct 21, 2005, john wrote: >-->> >-->> interesting (canola oil is rapeseed from what I can tell) >-->> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#rapeseed >-->> >-->> john >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:14:39 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [db] canola oil now that's what I'm talking about... sounds like I've got a good oil... ;) I've heard that peanut oil is supposed to be really good... if you get a chance to talk to the professor let me know what she thinks. :) heading out to leavenworth now... john On Sat, 22 Oct 2005, Bruce Caruthers wrote: >-->Here's the take on it from my wife the biochemist... >--> >-->---8<------8<--- >--> >-->You can send this to John and/or the list... >--> >-->Canola oil used as a WVO supplement to fuel, using my >-->chemical common sense, should be pretty good. Canola oil is >-->one of the "healthy" eatin oils because it's liquid at room >-->temp, and it's also unlikely to form those nasty little >-->deposits in your body... this is due to unsaturation >-->(multiple double bonds, in chemspeak). For the same reason, >-->this oil will tend to stay liquid in the gas tank to lower >-->temps. >--> >-->The jury is still out, based on my research, if canola makes >-->a better biodiesel than other oils -- but it's definitely in >-->the running. Palm oils are apparently more energy efficient, >-->but difficult to work with being solid at room temp. Soy >-->oil apparently works well, but not many restaurants use it >-->for cooking -- meaning you'd have to grow biodiesel-specific >-->soy crops, defeating the recycling purpose, IMO. Your oil >-->should work great (still working on finding the last pieces >-->of testing equipment...) >--> >-->---8<------8<--- >--> >-->-bkc >-->Lynnwood, WA >-->'76 MB 240D [W115.117/616.916] >-->'00 MB ML320 [W163.154/M112.942] >-->'93 MB 300D 2.5 Turbo [W124.128/602.962] >-->'92 Toyota Celica GT >--> >-->On Fri Oct 21, 2005, john wrote: >-->> when returning the empty buckets to the blue moon burger joint that >-->> chuck and I have been getting our go juice from I noticed an empty container... >-->> actually it's a plastic container in about box, estimate about 2.5 gallons... will >-->> get more of these little jewels (especially if I can get chuck to haul 'em. ;) >-->> >-->> Anyway, interesting to note that they are using canola oil in their fryer.... >-->> >-->> >-->> ok all you alchemists, biochemists, charlatans and witch doctors of the go juice, >-->> is this good, bad or just plain ugly? :) >-->> >-->> heading for the hills, actually, over the hills... last transmission for the night, may >-->> not get back on line until late tomorrow... getting on US2 and heading over to >-->> the little bavarian village known as leavenworth... schnitzel, bratwurst and other >-->> fine european cusine (of the germanic variety) await us... ;) >-->> >-->> supposed to be sunny... anyone know what the freezing level is? of course stevens >-->> pass is only about 4,000 feet so it's not too much of a worry this early in the year. ;) >-->> john >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:01:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jerry Kaidor" Subject: Re: [db] canola oil >>Anyway, interesting to note that they are using canola oil *** So if my 300D runs out of fuel, I can get home by spraying a can of Pam into the gas tank ? :). - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry-at-tr2.com ) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:43:23 -0400 From: "Jim Hoffman" Subject: [db] WVO vs. true biodiesel After reading chapter 2 in this new book I bought, I don't think I'd run WVO in any of my vehicles. A quick quote: "In virtually all cases, if the vegetable oils were used over a long period of time, the engine could be seriously damaged." Tests done on tractors in Idaho in the late 70's/early 80's: ^SWhen we got done, however, the tractor engine was completely shot,^T he admits. ^SAt the end of the test we had severe polymerization of the piston rings and the engine wouldn^Rt start.^T Peterson^Rs experiment with straight vegetable oil didn^Rt work any better than other similar experiments of that period because modern diesel engines simply weren^Rt designed to run on vegetable oil." They go into more detail in the book but it would be impossible to show it all here in an e-mail. You can actually find chapter 2 online at: http://www.chelseagreen.com/images/biodieselchap2.pdf I'm hoping to learn enough to brew my own biodiesel AND figure out an antigel for the winter. Jim - -- Jim Hoffman Oconomowoc WI '39 Allis Model B '53 Ford Golden Jubilee '?? Bolens Huskie Gardener ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:12:34 -0700 From: chuck goolsbee Subject: Re: [db] canola oil At 9:34 AM -0700 10/22/05, Brian Knowles wrote: >Never mind the crops, we want pictures of the Tiger Moth.. > >bk I don't have too many, as it was almost 10 years ago, and I had left my (very primitive) digital camera behind in the US (d'oh!)... I have a few very small (sorry!) photos of the Tiger Moth in that directory: These were posted on the very first version of my website, that went up in '97 or so. We lived on a farm (named "Lotmead"), between the town of Swindon and the village of Wanborough in Wiltshire. I was there for two years, and my family was there for a year. Keeping it slightly on-topic, I drove a Diesel Jetta wagon (a long-term rental) my first few months there, but after I figured out public transport (supplemented with my bicycle) I turned it back in. Once the wife arrived we bought a *wonderful* little Volvo 440TD... a MB C-class or Jetta-similar car with a nice Peugeot (sp?) turbo-Diesel engine in it. You can see part of it in this picture of my son in his village-school uniform: That little boy is now over six feet tall and driving by the way. =) We sold the Volvo to some friends out near Bristol, and I visited them a couple of years ago when a business trip took me to the UK. It was still running fine (though it had a timing chain repaired.) My wife dearly misses that car to this day. If Volvo sold Diesel-engine cars in North America I'd buy one for her in a heartbeat. They never sold the 440 here, even in gasoline form. I guess the world thinks we Americans only want to buy lumbering 4x4s and high-powered luxury cars. - -- - --chuck goolsbee 02 Jetta TDi (but also looking for a 300SD or SDL) arlington, wa, usa ------------------------------ End of diesel-benz-digest V1 #2001 **********************************